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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 17, 2010 9:00:00 GMT -5
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 17, 2010 11:14:26 GMT -5
Tapati ~ this latest installment really has me wondering what was up with your grandfather? I haven't read ahead in your story ~ so it makes me really curious to find out what comes next. So far in your story, your mother doesn't seem like a really reliable and trustworthy person ~ so if she's making accusations, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it didn't actually happen and she and your aunt had some bizarro reason for making it up. On the other hand ~ it's a very serious accusation ~ and not something that should be taken lightly ~ esp. when you had yourself and your young son to protect. I can only imagine the conflict that must have made you feel like your brain might explode trying to figure it all out. No wonder it felt like a relief to be going back home to your abusive husband. (((((( Hugs to you, Tapati ))))))) Selfish as it is ~ cuz I know you're struggling and it's very hard for you to write ~ I sure do hope you don't leave us hanging for too long ~ I'm anxious to hear more soon!
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Post by km on Aug 17, 2010 13:15:55 GMT -5
I'm anxious to hear more as well! Thanks for posting.
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Post by tapati on Aug 17, 2010 14:05:08 GMT -5
Tapati ~ this latest installment really has me wondering what was up with your grandfather? I haven't read ahead in your story ~ so it makes me really curious to find out what comes next. So far in your story, your mother doesn't seem like a really reliable and trustworthy person ~ so if she's making accusations, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it didn't actually happen and she and your aunt had some bizarro reason for making it up. Many of the things my mother said later turned out to be demonstrably true so I came to trust her take on the family more as time went on. My aunt Gin would not go along with her if it wasn't true. She wouldn't participate in such a serious lie like that. I've never known her to behave that way with regard to gossip. She was much more emotionally stable than my mom. In retrospect I remembered finding various porn books stashed around the house, fairly raunchy stuff for the times. That in itself is not evidence of child molestation unless it's child porn, and it wasn't. But it led credence to the idea that there was a side of Grandpa that others didn't see. There was also the case of the foster child...when I was in grade school Grandma wanted to make some money by taking in a foster child. I was astonished to find my mom and my aunt vigorously disagreeing with the idea and trying hard to talk her out of it. The objections they did raise didn't make sense to me. It was only in hind sight that I realized why they objected--it was a girl she was going to take in. She went ahead with the plan. After less than a year she gave her up. I overheard a conversation where Grandma told someone that when the girl sat on Grandpa's lap she was "playing with herself." I remember it vividly because it made me feel like Grandma wouldn't love me if she knew I "played with myself" also. So...what was really happening with Grandpa and this girl? I don't know but with their account of him I have to wonder. Their objections make so much more sense with the idea that they were trying to both protect the foster child and also their mother from the truth. Besides my health, my dilemma is that when I can write, I feel guilty if I continue on with the later parts of the story for my book before I write another post for you. I am torn. I'm re-writing for you material that I already made a rough pass through earlier. I need to get on with the story. So now I'm trying to do both.
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Post by tapati on Aug 17, 2010 14:07:22 GMT -5
I'm anxious to hear more as well! Thanks for posting. Thanks, I hope to post more frequently now that one of the most difficult parts is behind me.
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Post by tapati on Aug 17, 2010 14:50:34 GMT -5
Oh, and I wouldn't out my Grandpa, even though he's passed away, unless I was convinced that they were telling the truth. Nor would I tell it unless I thought it was vital to the overall story. I'm not trying to just tell everybody else's secrets here for sensationalism. There has to be a point, whether it affects choices I made later on, or it makes a point about the nature of abuse, or it gave me insight into someone else's behavior, something that matters to the story and to the purpose behind the story.
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valsa
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Post by valsa on Aug 17, 2010 22:42:35 GMT -5
Ugh. This brings back memories. A few years ago my sorta-grandmother (my lesbian grandmother's ex-girlfriend) let it slip that two of my cousins may have been molested. My mother later told me that she didn't know if it had been my uncle (their father) or my late grandfather who did it. Finding out that my grandfather had a history of getting drunk and "handsy" with girls in the family was a shock. Although I was actually pretty angry she waited that long to tell me about it. We lived across the country from him and only visited once when I was a little girl, but I don't feel that pedophilia is something that should be kept from vulnerable members of the family.
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Post by tapati on Aug 18, 2010 11:17:42 GMT -5
Ugh. This brings back memories. A few years ago my sorta-grandmother (my lesbian grandmother's ex-girlfriend) let it slip that two of my cousins may have been molested. My mother later told me that she didn't know if it had been my uncle (their father) or my late grandfather who did it. Finding out that my grandfather had a history of getting drunk and "handsy" with girls in the family was a shock. Although I was actually pretty angry she waited that long to tell me about it. We lived across the country from him and only visited once when I was a little girl, but I don't feel that pedophilia is something that should be kept from vulnerable members of the family. I agree, and that is the dilemma all victims face, really, is that while it's so difficult and painful to tell, it can prevent future victims. But one doesn't expect the child victim to think of that, naturally. Yet as adults, my mom and my aunt took a chance that the foster child would be molested in order to save their mom's marriage (or maybe they were afraid she'd reject them and call them liars, as could have happened). I'm sorry you weren't informed and wow, what a shock it is when you find out, huh? My main point is that you can't tell by looking at or even knowing these people. They don't "look like" pedophiles because pedophiles look like...US.
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kpmom
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Post by kpmom on Aug 18, 2010 14:29:16 GMT -5
Tapati, your story was/is amazing. Thank you for writing it. I am wondering why your aunt and mom chose that particular time to tell you about your grandfather? And I agree, it doesn't make sense that they'd let him give you a bath when you were young, or, heck, even be alone with him for that matter.
Thank you, again
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Post by tapati on Aug 18, 2010 16:09:00 GMT -5
Tapati, your story was/is amazing. Thank you for writing it. I am wondering why your aunt and mom chose that particular time to tell you about your grandfather? And I agree, it doesn't make sense that they'd let him give you a bath when you were young, or, heck, even be alone with him for that matter. Thank you, again I never understood the timing thing and didn't ask because I didn't want to bring it up. As I got older I did want to know and it was too late. They died in 1990 within two days of each other. I don't get the bath thing either, and I can only imagine that they thought he was after them because he met them as older step-daughters but he knew me from the time I was a baby, and since he could never sire a child he accepted me as his own. I think because of that they believed I was safe. I'm sure mom watched out when I was very little but was reassured by what she saw of his behavior with me. I don't have any memories of inappropriate touching or things like that. But it's not a choice I would have made. As you can all see by my writing, I prefer to TELL. Better to hurt Grandma, an adult, than to risk children.
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Post by tapati on Aug 18, 2010 16:09:34 GMT -5
Oh, and thanks.
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Post by cysterfrog on Aug 18, 2010 19:44:26 GMT -5
Oh this makes me think of my family - secrets, and why we so often put up a front of acting 'normal' around pedophilic relatives and not confronting them more openly.
My mother was better at protecting me tho - she learned that one of her brothers tried to have sex w/ my one of my older sisters (who was a teen when this happened, I was an infant at the time). Our mom always made sure I was never ever alone with him. I so appreciate my mother's caution and care. And yet, so far as I know, her brother was never confronted him and the family never dealt with him.
This post makes me stop and think about how our family deals with its dark secrets. Or the way we don't deal with them.
Thank you for sharing and making me think Tapati.
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Post by quivery on Aug 18, 2010 20:41:59 GMT -5
(((((((((Tapati)))))))))
Reading your last post made me think of a friend of mine, herself a survivor of childhood incest. When her father, the abuser, passed away, I was amazed at how calm and forgiving she seemed. Had I been in her place, I am not sure I would have acted the same way. Maybe I would not even have gone to the funeral. I would have been so mad that maybe I would have "outed" him in my eulogy!
How is it that some of us can continue to put on "smiling faces" and lie to others in the face of such horrible abuse going on? Is it merely a survival tactic, done out of desperation? Is it comforting to pretend that things are "normal" when they're really not?
I don't know, but again, thank you for sharing your story.
More *hugs* to you and your family! --quivery
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Tor
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Post by Tor on Aug 18, 2010 20:43:19 GMT -5
Oh this makes me think of my family - secrets, and why we so often put up a front of acting 'normal' around pedophilic relatives and not confronting them more openly. Same here - my family tries so hard to point out all the redeeming qualities of my brother as though that makes everything better - nothing is ever really addressed. In fact, when I finally got the courage to say that I didn't want to be around him anymore, I became the problem, because I would no longer contribute to put up the front that everything he did was okay. My mother knows what he did to me, but chooses to be ignorant so she doesn't have to deal with it.
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Post by tapati on Aug 19, 2010 10:51:18 GMT -5
Oh this makes me think of my family - secrets, and why we so often put up a front of acting 'normal' around pedophilic relatives and not confronting them more openly. My mother was better at protecting me tho - she learned that one of her brothers tried to have sex w/ my one of my older sisters (who was a teen when this happened, I was an infant at the time). Our mom always made sure I was never ever alone with him. I so appreciate my mother's caution and care. And yet, so far as I know, her brother was never confronted him and the family never dealt with him. This post makes me stop and think about how our family deals with its dark secrets. Or the way we don't deal with them. Thank you for sharing and making me think Tapati. I think my family was so organized around protecting Grandma. I am not sure why they saw her as so fragile when I see her as being tough-as-nails. Yes it would have hurt greatly to know this, but I'm sure she would rather have protected her daughters, when they were younger and still living with him. I do know Grandma was abused in her first marriage and maybe this had a bearing on the way they viewed her in terms of fragility. I also think that families don't want many people to know because word will spread and, let's face it, it is so humiliating to have this go public. Even if the shame belongs rightfully to an abuser, it is still something that brings a lot of unwanted and unpleasant public attention. In retrospect, I understand why I was never left alone with my own stepfather, the few years he was in our lives. My mom was trying to protect me from any potential danger, even if she may not have thought he was capable. Grandpa taught her that looks can be deceiving.
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Post by tapati on Aug 19, 2010 11:06:26 GMT -5
(((((((((Tapati))))))))) Reading your last post made me think of a friend of mine, herself a survivor of childhood incest. When her father, the abuser, passed away, I was amazed at how calm and forgiving she seemed. Had I been in her place, I am not sure I would have acted the same way. Maybe I would not even have gone to the funeral. I would have been so mad that maybe I would have "outed" him in my eulogy! How is it that some of us can continue to put on "smiling faces" and lie to others in the face of such horrible abuse going on? Is it merely a survival tactic, done out of desperation? Is it comforting to pretend that things are "normal" when they're really not? I don't know, but again, thank you for sharing your story. More *hugs* to you and your family! --quivery Thank you! I think putting on a smile and pretending things are normal is so much less scary than the horrible emotional scene and subsequent consequences of speaking the truth. When you speak the truth, some won't believe you anyway if the abuser has a very good public façade in place. Then, even if you are believed and others come forward too, you can blow your family apart. If I had gone back to Grandma's and spoken up, all hell would have broken loose. I can't imagine the storm. My family, not very healthy about communication in the first place, would have degenerated into a torrent of verbally abusive fighting that would have drawn in extended family and either ended Grandma's marriage or ended with her disowning her children. Or both. I didn't feel it was my place to do all of that since the victims themselves had chosen to stay silent. If there were children in Grandpa's life I might have felt obliged to speak up, but Lakshmana was the only child in the family and I knew we were going to be safe. I think it's important to add that there are different types of pedophile activity. There are the devoted, hard core pedophiles who contrive to be around children because children comprise their only sexual desire and outlet. They should be outed immediately and charged whenever possible with a crime. They will seek out victims until they are stopped. But the more numerous group, I believe, is the person who commits such acts out of opportunity. The primary sexual outlet will be adults. But this person can be tempted by close proximity with and opportunity for abuse of teens or children. I think that is the category that my grandpa belongs in and also my ex-husband. (Grandpa didn't stop desiring the girls as they grew up, for example. They did not have to be pre-pubescent.) They don't go out of their way to seek children or work with children to get more victims. But if a child is nearby and a seemingly safe opportunity presents itself, they will succumb. If children are not in their circle, their work, or regular environment, they may not present an immediate danger. If that changes, then of course someone should be warned.
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Post by tapati on Aug 19, 2010 11:07:32 GMT -5
Oh this makes me think of my family - secrets, and why we so often put up a front of acting 'normal' around pedophilic relatives and not confronting them more openly. Same here - my family tries so hard to point out all the redeeming qualities of my brother as though that makes everything better - nothing is ever really addressed. In fact, when I finally got the courage to say that I didn't want to be around him anymore, I became the problem, because I would no longer contribute to put up the front that everything he did was okay. My mother knows what he did to me, but chooses to be ignorant so she doesn't have to deal with it. {{{hugs}}} And that's why, in a nutshell, so many stay silent.
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Post by tapati on Aug 19, 2010 11:24:57 GMT -5
tapati.livejournal.com/558372.htmlWhere I elaborate more--with links--on the difference between true pedophiles and those who only commit sexual abuse in certain situations.
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Post by princessjo1988 on Aug 20, 2010 15:10:22 GMT -5
I guess for me, this is really sensitive topic. I would have to say that it really does bug me when situations like this are swept under the carpet. And why is that may you ask?
In my family's case they swept my father's crimes against my cousin under the carpet for years. They like you, dismissed it as a one off thing, and that because he had gotten married, he wouldn't re-offend again. We all know what happened there.
Actually, this is the very reason why I reported at 14/15: because although I only knew of one other victim (my friend), I was certain he would do it again, or that he would go too far with me one day.
Paedophiles are often extremely talented liars. All too often I hear stories of victims whom think that they are the only ones: and they are not.
Paedophiles are often extremely choosy with whom they pick as a victim too: often it is the vulnerable children, not the confident ones. I think my father chose me as a last resort: he couldn't gain access to another child.
My advice is always to speak up. Yes it can be traumatic, and yes, you may not be believed, but if he goes on to abuse again, the possibility is that the next victim will be believed, simply because you spoke up.
Jo
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Post by tapati on Aug 20, 2010 16:04:46 GMT -5
I guess for me, this is really sensitive topic. I would have to say that it really does bug me when situations like this are swept under the carpet. And why is that may you ask? In my family's case they swept my father's crimes against my cousin under the carpet for years. They like you, dismissed it as a one off thing, and that because he had gotten married, he wouldn't re-offend again. We all know what happened there. Actually, this is the very reason why I reported at 14/15: because although I only knew of one other victim (my friend), I was certain he would do it again, or that he would go too far with me one day. Paedophiles are often extremely talented liars. All too often I hear stories of victims whom think that they are the only ones: and they are not. Paedophiles are often extremely choosy with whom they pick as a victim too: often it is the vulnerable children, not the confident ones. I think my father chose me as a last resort: he couldn't gain access to another child. My advice is always to speak up. Yes it can be traumatic, and yes, you may not be believed, but if he goes on to abuse again, the possibility is that the next victim will be believed, simply because you spoke up. Jo I believe I also said that if the abuser is likely to have contact with OTHER CHILDREN, the family should be warned. There were no children in his life at the time that I, a nineteen year old, learned about this. He never had the care of children for the remainder of his life. He wasn't alone with children ever again. I certainly didn't allow him such access to my own. I'm sorry that no one spoke up to protect you, but yours is a different circumstance. Not all child sexual abusers are pedophiles by psychiatric definition. A pedophile will SEEK OUT opportunities to abuse children and will not stop until they are stopped by the law.
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Post by princessjo1988 on Aug 20, 2010 16:53:50 GMT -5
Err...sorry I meant "your family" not you personally (They like your family, dismissed it as a one off thing, and that because he had gotten married, he wouldn't re-offend again).
Teach me for not proof-reading.
And my latter remarks were just my perceptions generally, not directed at your individual situation....sorry for the confusion.
For me personally, the messing around with words ("child sexual abuse", "paedophile"), just convolutes the issue. Regardless of what is called, it is still a major problem, that hurts kids. I choose to use the word paedophile because to me, that is what the abuser is.
And I still think reporting is one of the best ways to deal with it: at least then, regardless of the circumstances, the offender and victim both get the help they need and deserve. This is coming from someone who had major problems with the reporting system, and is well aware of it's downfalls.
And just because someone is never alone with a child again, doesn't mean they won't abuse. I was abused with my own mother awake in bed beside me. My friend was abused in the same room as me and her younger sister. My cousin was raped in the same room as a tiny baby: me. Other friends have had similar experiences with different offenders.
Parents think that a child of theirs will be safe simply because they are supervising their child with other adults, or because that child is not alone with the offender (whether they know the person was an offender). In many circumstances, that could not be farther from the truth. In fact, I think it is one of the biggest myths about child abuse out there. I know for many friends they haven't been able to report their abuse because other non-abusive adult figures where there, and refute the abuse to the authorities, so nothing gets done.
Something I feel strongly about, obviously. I know that it wasn't your intention to get me worked up and I totally get that you support me, and all the other survivors out there.
Jo
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Post by tapati on Aug 20, 2010 17:24:24 GMT -5
I'm sorry, Jo, that my writing tends to bring up so many old wounds, for those who've been abused, abandoned, and neglected.
As an adult, I would have chosen to tell Grandma WHY she shouldn't take in a foster child, at the very least, if I were in Mom and Aunt Gin's position. At the time I was bewildered since I spent so much time at Grandma's and if she could care for me, why not another girl my age? (Also, I would bet that the girl never did what Grandma accused her of. I knew her pretty well and that would be totally out of character.)
Back in those times people really didn't talk about abuse, though, so it's a very different climate. We are more educated these days.
I use different terms for these different categories of men because I've read that the experts want us to. I think there are good reasons. I think that those who know men who haven't had an exclusive desire for pre-pubescent children use that as a reason not to believe reports about such men abusing children. They think that only a full on pedophile does such things, and it feeds their denial. I think it increases the likelihood that victims won't be believed. That, of course, is dangerous.
Writing about the various types of men who may sexually abuse children is one way to wake people up that it's not just the drooling pedophile with the child porn collection, but the married guy down the street who's never even worked with children before who might abuse a neighbor child one day.
We cannot guarantee the safety of our children completely. It is a scary fact of parenting. We must do the best we can.
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Post by krwordgazer on Aug 21, 2010 16:24:25 GMT -5
As always, I'm following your story with great interest, Tapati. I don't really have anything more to contribute at this time except to add to the general hugs.
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