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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 26, 2010 6:43:16 GMT -5
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Post by chbernat on Aug 26, 2010 7:06:39 GMT -5
Thank you Vyckie for sharing this. I cried when I read it because what you said has been on my heart for SO MANY long months.
I wrote a story on forgiveness on my blog recently, I guess you writing this just encapsulated this whole struggle for me. I get accused of not moving on. People think that I am miserable, but that's simply not the case.
And for every person, just like you said, that tells me to move on, sister! I get pounded with more emails and supporters who tell me to keep on, keepin' on.
So thank you. I am so glad that God put me in your path~ you have been such a source of encouragement and support to me.
Hugs to you!!!
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Post by madame on Aug 26, 2010 7:54:57 GMT -5
Thanks for writing that, Vyckie, and thanks for keeping this blog and discussion board open. The voices of QF leaders and strong followers are very loud and very enticing to many who are trying to be "the best", who are seeking a life that makes sense and all that. It's good to have the strong voice of NLQ, the other side of the story, which may help people not to step into the lifestyle, and those who feel trapped in it to step out.
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Post by fabucat on Aug 26, 2010 8:34:08 GMT -5
Vykie, you're already "together" and you've "moved on." It's funny how your opponents' narcissism is transferred to you. No, you're bearing witness. You're helping OTHERS. A lot of folks, when they suffer something terrible in life, say that they've moved on, but they really stew in their juices of bitterness.
Then there are people who help others who have lived through something similar, even though they've gotten it "together." I'm thinking of the man who is the host of America's Most Wanted. This man's son was brutally molested and murdered. The man wanted to help catch brutal criminals and so he has.
I've learned a whole lot since I started reading this blog. In many cases, I think that I'm unworthy to even BE here, considering the immense courage of the other women here. I thought that we lived in the United States of America and that all women were now free. Probably most of you have read Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale." Atwood said that wrote in response to witnessing the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. Ms. Atwood mentioned that in the '60s and 70s, Afghan women comprised 50% of the college students, women worked outside of the home, there were female judges and government ministers. We see that in Afghanistan, the clock has cruelly turned back on women. Just because women had made significant gains in that country, the gains weren't immutable.
Atwood's message was that what happened with the Taliban could occur in the Western world. Hopefully, I am being alarmist, a Cassandra. I can overreact a bit. Yet I keep on being surprised, reading the blogs of you remarkable women, and I thought that I was pretty jaded.
Vykie, I'm glad that you didn't "move on." The world needs to hear these stories!
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Post by MoonlitNight on Aug 26, 2010 8:40:18 GMT -5
Understanding what you've been through -- why it happened, how you felt about it then, what you can see about it now -- through retelling the story is so often critical in laying it to rest, so that you can have your life back for YOU to live it.
"Forgiveness" has a nasty tendency to really mean "ignoring all that stuff", and it's when you're ignoring the bad stuff that it keeps coming up and haunting you, but you won't see what is happening. Or you will see just enough that you know to put your blinkers on, and it doesn't get dealt with.
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Post by liltwinstar on Aug 26, 2010 12:03:53 GMT -5
I should say that I don't identify as Christian any more, so that influences my view of forgiveness - to me, it's just yet another handy way for those in power to squash dissent. What I saw of forgiveness growing up was that those in power could keep abusing/dominatng, over and over and over, and their victims were just supposed to keep "forgiving", which basically meant that they kept coming back for more abuse until something snapped and they were able to get away permanently.
Then, once they were away, they were criticized for not forgiving, for not being "humble", for "turning away from the faith." Forgiveness was yet another weapon used to control the (mostly female) voices who say "this happened to me, it was not ok, it needs to stop." The minute you start questioning, you're labeled as "bitter" or "unrepentant" or "apostate" and those still in the movement are told to ignore you, that you're a liar, that the abuse wasn't "that bad" etc etc etc. Then those who are still in power can look virtuous to those who are left, and it encourages the followers to just dig in deeper.
So for me personally, I don't feel the need to forgive. The people that hurt me have never once apologized, and most of them have not changed their ways. I'm lucky because I don't have to see most of them ever again (and some are dead). Yes, of course, part of me would like acknowledgement that what they did was screwed up, but I also realized that truth was never going to come from them. That truth had to come from me - I had to recognize that those patterns and behaviors and teachings were not ok. Once I did that, it was easier for me to move on. So no, I haven't forgiven, but I wouldn't call myself bitter, either. I have a great life now, I don't plot revenge like I once did- I just live. But it's still important that these stories are out there. The people who spew this garbage are still out there, so the other side needs to be out there too.
Thanks to everyone who tells their stories. I'm glad this site exists.
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 26, 2010 14:08:16 GMT -5
I should say that I don't identify as Christian any more, so that influences my view of forgiveness - to me, it's just yet another handy way for those in power to squash dissent. What I saw of forgiveness growing up was that those in power could keep abusing/dominatng, over and over and over, and their victims were just supposed to keep "forgiving", which basically meant that they kept coming back for more abuse until something snapped and they were able to get away permanently. Then, once they were away, they were criticized for not forgiving, for not being "humble", for "turning away from the faith." Forgiveness was yet another weapon used to control the (mostly female) voices who say "this happened to me, it was not ok, it needs to stop." The minute you start questioning, you're labeled as "bitter" or "unrepentant" or "apostate" and those still in the movement are told to ignore you, that you're a liar, that the abuse wasn't "that bad" etc etc etc. Then those who are still in power can look virtuous to those who are left, and it encourages the followers to just dig in deeper. So for me personally, I don't feel the need to forgive. The people that hurt me have never once apologized, and most of them have not changed their ways. I'm lucky because I don't have to see most of them ever again (and some are dead). Yes, of course, part of me would like acknowledgement that what they did was screwed up, but I also realized that truth was never going to come from them. That truth had to come from me - I had to recognize that those patterns and behaviors and teachings were not ok. Once I did that, it was easier for me to move on. So no, I haven't forgiven, but I wouldn't call myself bitter, either. I have a great life now, I don't plot revenge like I once did- I just live. But it's still important that these stories are out there. The people who spew this garbage are still out there, so the other side needs to be out there too. Thanks to everyone who tells their stories. I'm glad this site exists. Well said. Forgiveness, moving on, etc. are phrases often used to silence victims.
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Post by km on Aug 26, 2010 16:40:18 GMT -5
I think "forgiveness" is far too often used as a big stick to beat people who have been mistreated and abused over the head.
And, also? If I were to think through some kind of "theology of forgiveness"? I'm damned sure it wouldn't involve forgetting and pretending like the whole thing never happened.
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Post by tapati on Aug 26, 2010 17:23:58 GMT -5
Yes, even well meaning people can parrot the forgiveness line simply because they are uncomfortable with the material they are hearing or reading and wish to shut it out and shut you up.
Frankly, I wouldn't bother to do this writing out of revenge or bitterness. It's harder on me than on my former abuser! He might be momentarily embarrassed when an entry appears and have to fend off a few comments by saying, "Oh yeah that's my crazy ex-wife; she's just bitter."
I have to relive hours of this stuff in order to write it. I have to feel it all over again. No amount of revenge would make that worth it to me.
No, I write with young women like my former self in mind, sincerely wanting their marriage to work and not understanding the dynamics sufficiently to know when it won't. I write for the young Mahasrayas out there who are puzzled and ashamed by their behavior and don't understand why they abuse their wives, why they feel powerless over the anger and frustration.
I also write for all of those people who make it worse by demonizing the abuser and by belittling those who are abused, by saying they ask for it or they must like it or otherwise dehumanizing them.
I write with the hope that more people will think deeply about these issues and come away with a renewed desire to do whatever they can to end the cycle of abuse and care for the victims, while providing services to heal the batterer. I also hope that we can offer our teens classes in good communication, managing feelings, and other skills that might enable them to start out with better relationships than their own parents had, if they come from troubled families.
I think anyone writing solely out of bitterness wouldn't get very far because the process is so unpleasant. It's not the kind of motivation that would sustain you.
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Aug 26, 2010 18:19:42 GMT -5
"Forgive and forget" tends to be a fundy mantra, IME. But the two don't nessessarily have anything to do with each other. I can and must forgive those who hurt me in the past, so I can let them go and get on with my life. But I don't forget what happened to me and I use the experiences to protect myself in the future. Forgiveness is internal, no one can be told to do it, it will happen when you're ready. Forgetting is not, IMO, optional; what we forget, we have an unfortunate tendency to repeat.
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Tor
New Member
Posts: 9
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Post by Tor on Aug 27, 2010 0:00:10 GMT -5
Coming out of a lot of abuse and Christian culture, I get this All. The. Time. Along with "If you don't forgive, God won't forgive you" and "I just care about you and what you to be healed so that's why I want you to forgive" (how forcing forgiveness equates to healing I don't know.) It's something that that I've been working about writing on my own blog - I tend to see this trend in a lot of Christian circles that you can do just about anything - bully, abuse, rape, murder, anything - but if you have anger, bitterness, or unforgiveness toward someone who did those things; nope sorry, all hope is lost for you.
It's a way of dealing with problems by shoving it under the rug instead of actually working to clean it. "If all the victims would just shut up, it would be peaceful!" rather than calling out the behavior of those who are actually doing the wrongdoing. It's easier to get silence from those who are already vulnerable than it is to confront those that do horrific things to others.
Frankly, for me, I can't distinguish forgiveness from relinquishing my power to those who harmed me. Being bitter and unforgiving is actually me finally starting to blame those who harmed me, instead of continuing to pile the blame on myself.
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 16:50:31 GMT -5
Coming out of a lot of abuse and Christian culture, I get this All. The. Time. Along with "If you don't forgive, God won't forgive you" and "I just care about you and what you to be healed so that's why I want you to forgive" (how forcing forgiveness equates to healing I don't know.) It's something that that I've been working about writing on my own blog - I tend to see this trend in a lot of Christian circles that you can do just about anything - bully, abuse, rape, murder, anything - but if you have anger, bitterness, or unforgiveness toward someone who did those things; nope sorry, all hope is lost for you. It's a way of dealing with problems by shoving it under the rug instead of actually working to clean it. "If all the victims would just shut up, it would be peaceful!" rather than calling out the behavior of those who are actually doing the wrongdoing. It's easier to get silence from those who are already vulnerable than it is to confront those that do horrific things to others. Frankly, for me, I can't distinguish forgiveness from relinquishing my power to those who harmed me. Being bitter and unforgiving is actually me finally starting to blame those who harmed me, instead of continuing to pile the blame on myself. Huh, interesting. This is the first time I've ever thought about it in this way exactly. It's the Tone Argument in Christian-speak. Or, in other words... In social activist circles, the Tone Argument happens, for example, when a white person gets all uncomfortable when hearing a black person express anger about racist treatment. Along the lines of, "Why do you have to be so angry about this??? I can't really talk to you about this unless you calm down, etc." So, instead of dealing with the issue at hand, the more privileged person (in this case) can't deal with the other's emotion around the topic and shuts that person down. It seems like we're all saying that "forgiveness" can also function in this way, so as to silence the victim and protect the comfort of the non-victim.
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Post by arietty on Aug 27, 2010 23:29:22 GMT -5
Honestly the word "forgiveness" is a big trigger to me because I have only experienced it as a brickbat about my head with the aim to get me to just shut up. And go away, hopefully. As soon as someone uses that word with me I know that is their agenda.
I left QF over 10 years ago and when I did I searched and searched for an ex-QF forum. I even started a yahoogroup at one point but no one joined. The ex-Fundy forums were full of angry, angry men who reminded me of my ex. There were very few female voices. So even though I'm 10 years out this is my first time and place to talk about all this with other people! And it's great! I feel like I have sharpened my ideas and communication too, so that maybe I can help people not fall into the same traps I did as a very young wife.
I'm not dwelling, I'm processing, learning and sharing. This lifestyle took my 20's and 30's. If I just moved on right away I could have moved on into something very similar because I had failed to understand what led me down that path in the first place.
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Post by journey on Aug 31, 2010 15:34:04 GMT -5
You are awesome, Vyckie! I'm so glad you decided not to be quiet. I noticed, when I began stumbling out of the QF mindset, that the primary mode of attack was, "BE QUIET." The argument was basically that I should gracefully leave, but had no right to talk about it, and that hte only reason I would be talking about it was because I was bitter, which meant I was sinful, which meant I shouldn't be listened to... The general attempt was to shame me into silence (shame being a favorite tool of the patriarchal camp, as we all know). It can be annoying, infuriating, and downright funny, these silly arguments that we should be quiet, but in a way, it's a loud signpost that is telling you that you are being very effective. If you weren't effectively communicating the dangers of the patriarchal/QF mindset, no one would be telling you to hush. So I'm thinking you should take it as a wonderful compliment, and as a sign that you aren't wasting your time but are doing the world a great service. THANK YOU!
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Aug 31, 2010 15:53:27 GMT -5
Journey ~ it's so good to hear from you!! How're you doing? I hope terrific Thanks so much for the kind words and encouragement.
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 6, 2010 9:51:12 GMT -5
Those who say, "Just forget and move on," are fortunate enough to never have experiences trauma. I'd like to see then tell war veterans to just forget about it all and move on. Once can forgive, but this doesn't mean forgetting, or that everything's all better for it.
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