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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 14:13:40 GMT -5
Oh. My. God. I am reading the list of courtship questions discussed in the post Erika linked: yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/I, um... Wow. Speechless. For example: "# Our family subscribes to the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Shorter and Larger Catechisms as our statement of faith. To what creed or confession do you subscribe? Do you take issue with any part of the Westminster Standards? If so, what? # We are members of the CPC – a reformed Presbyterian denomination. Please read through the Constitution and Form of Church Government I sent earlier and let me know if you disagree with any part of these documents." And it goes on and on...and on...
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Post by stampinmama on Aug 28, 2010 14:28:26 GMT -5
Oh. My. God. I am reading the list of courtship questions discussed in the post Erika linked: yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/I, um... Wow. Speechless. For example: "# Our family subscribes to the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Shorter and Larger Catechisms as our statement of faith. To what creed or confession do you subscribe? Do you take issue with any part of the Westminster Standards? If so, what? # We are members of the CPC – a reformed Presbyterian denomination. Please read through the Constitution and Form of Church Government I sent earlier and let me know if you disagree with any part of these documents." And it goes on and on...and on... Isn't that list insane??? I posted it on my LiveJournal and a bunch of my friends answered the questions and posted them and it was HILARIOUS! Of course, it was all snarky. One of my friends said: "Do you have goldfish? If so, have they been baptised according the to Westminster Confession, or do you consider that to be unnecessary since they are constantly in water anyway?" I about bust a lung laughing.
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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 14:38:20 GMT -5
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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 14:40:49 GMT -5
Oh. My. God. I am reading the list of courtship questions discussed in the post Erika linked: yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/I, um... Wow. Speechless. For example: "# Our family subscribes to the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Shorter and Larger Catechisms as our statement of faith. To what creed or confession do you subscribe? Do you take issue with any part of the Westminster Standards? If so, what? # We are members of the CPC – a reformed Presbyterian denomination. Please read through the Constitution and Form of Church Government I sent earlier and let me know if you disagree with any part of these documents." And it goes on and on...and on... Isn't that list insane??? I posted it on my LiveJournal and a bunch of my friends answered the questions and posted them and it was HILARIOUS! Of course, it was all snarky. One of my friends said: "Do you have goldfish? If so, have they been baptised according the to Westminster Confession, or do you consider that to be unnecessary since they are constantly in water anyway?" I about bust a lung laughing. Yeah, that's pretty good. This McDonald crap is...even worse than the first List of Questions that I was ever introduced to--the one by Greg Harris...
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Post by madame on Aug 28, 2010 14:52:07 GMT -5
My goodness... some of the questions left me This sort of stuff comes up in natural conversation. Normal dating couples meet each other's families, ask each other about past relationships, want to know each other's views about all sorts of stuff... Why not just let the couple get on with it? Besides, they are both works in progress. Both will grow in many aspects, and both may find themselves theologically, politically and otherwise ideologically on a different path ten years down the road. When my husband and I were talking about marriage (most furtively, as it was not allowed at our Bible college!) we both shared qf ideals. Now we don't. We have led each other out of some beliefs we now consider erroneous. I'm sure glad my dad doesn't have some document my husbad signed declaring all the beliefs he held back then!!!!! And I'm very glad my husband and I don't always hold the same beliefs! It makes for good discussion.
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 14:58:15 GMT -5
Kenneth Copeland is well known for teaching that you can be healed by faith. I remember listening to his and his family's talks on their website. In particular, his wife Gloria, teaches "healing school". Guess what? KC got a slipped disc in his spine. He talked and talked and talked about all his faith and how God had sustained him when he had surgery for it. Charlatans. Well, to be technical, Jesus says several times that it is our faith that heals us, but I think the problem comes through the simplified formulas that are offered on top of whatever meaning that stuff really has. I have to agree with Jesus that faith mediates healing, but the hows and whys and whens and whats are still a mystery and do not reduce to over-simplified formulas. In their own way, they are Word of Faith's attempts to make themselves Gods that operate on the power of positive thinking. Remember also that Kenyon (from whom this branch of WoF people came from) took Mary Baker Eddy's work and sanitized it for God. Eddy learned from Quimby and Quimby studied under Mesmer. It is the power of positive thinking stuff and is the basis of hypnosis. These traditions took principles from the Bible and fit them into another religion. Branham came from the spiritualist branch and consorted with an entity with whom he communicated, though he also drew from the same principles of positive thinking and mind over matter. (Sometimes and for short periods, mind of matter can work physically through hypnosis and can motivate with "I think I can" incentive. Not all of that is expressly evil at all.) But even Branham's progeny, the Kansas City Prophets, consort with entities too. Google KCP and "Emma" to whom Rick Joiner, Bob Jones and that Paul whats his face consort with. I think Todd Bentley chats with "Emma" and others, too. Ick, ick, ick! I am angered that they've hijacked Jesus and taken what He said out of context to create a religion that makes man as powerful as God. (Don't forget that Copeland, Joyce Meyers, Benny Hinn and others teach that Jesus officially died in hell and had to be "born again" when the Father raised Him from the dead in hell. They aren't so big mouthed about it since they came under fire in the early '90s, but essentially, they reduce Jesus to a special purpose God like the comps do with the Eternal Subordination of the Son in order to make man a rung higher on the ladder of potential deity.) There are no ways around the mysteries.
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 15:02:09 GMT -5
Do you all realize why they had to write this betrothal stuff in 2009? Because in 2008, the McDonalds established themselves as experts on betrothal and said stupid stuff like a betrothal required a divorce and was as binding as a marriage. Yeah, and then their daughter broke her engagement/betrothal. They wrote that post to cover up their errors and the fact that they're making it up as they go along. Why? Because they are no more experienced at this stuff than anyone else. What's funny is that most people listen to others who have tried and tested success. These young whipper snapper know it alls don't know any more than the next guy, but they're making money off of it. It's all smoke and mirrors.
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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 15:06:09 GMT -5
No, I did not know that... Huh... Well, I mean, I'm kinda glad the girl was able to break the betrothal, I guess... And not shunned or anything.
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 15:50:01 GMT -5
I felt bad for the poor kid, a fellow with the last name of "Cave." I'm glad that he dodged a bullet.
I found it pretty troubling, as did others, because they made the whole process a blog and patriarchy media event, what I think amounts to using their kids to profiteer and promote themselves as experts. When I guess that the daughter decided that she didn't want to marry the guy, it was miserable for all of them. They made a big deal about the Jane Austen role-playing engagement ceremonial tea and all kinds of stuff. Then when it fell apart, they just kept on acting like they knew it all and that everyone should just forgive them.
All this is pretty galling considering that James treated his first wife despicably and that they were pretending to be a family with ten kids themselves when they were half his and one was hers, and then they had theirs, too. And they had the audacity to tell people that they had a large family because God blessed them with fertility. But everyone's got to forgive them for that, too, I suppose. All this still qualifies them to be experts in betrothal.
This shows the double standard fakery in the patriocentric system. Ask Carmon Friedrich about where her missing in action kid is (why some adult children like the McDonald's eldest son are not touted as an exemplars of how patriarchy produces perfect results). You'll get blasted and called a gossip. They can make all the claims but don't have the proof. If you ask questions, you are cruel and unChristian.
And people eat it up.
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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 15:53:30 GMT -5
Wait, huh? The McDonalds were married to other people before they married each other? Wow... That's...surprising.
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 16:17:36 GMT -5
Wait, huh? The McDonalds were married to other people before they married each other? Wow... That's...surprising. Go to my website and look on the sidebar for a button concerning "The Sale of Homeschooling Today." There is much abuse, theft, lying and such in patriarchy the likes that most people would deny until it happened to them. One day when people are not so terrified by these people to step forward and tell their stories (without fearing retaliation against them, their children and their livelihoods), the truth will be known.
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 16:43:37 GMT -5
Go to my website and look on the sidebar for a button concerning "The Sale of Homeschooling Today." There is much abuse, theft, lying and such in patriarchy the likes that most people would deny until it happened to them. One day when people are not so terrified by these people to step forward and tell their stories (without fearing retaliation against them, their children and their livelihoods), the truth will be known. Ah... Wow... I didn't realize you had...known them personally? No, but I know personally many who have and have been sorely used by them. They'd hurt so many people that I was contacted by many who had much to say but felt helpless to do anything to address the lies and injustice they'd suffered. I think that Phillips has hurt as many people or more, but people are afraid of him because he is an attorney. The McDonalds didn't have as clean of a past and operations as someone like Doug. And people were willing to document their experiences with the McDonalds where they were too afraid to do so with Phillips. The Mcdonald's buddy, RC Sproul, Jr also has his skeletons. But they let the dust settle for awhile and then just plug on like nothing happened. Enough people circulate out of the group and people have short memories, so for many, the garbage doesn't catch up fast enough to deter people from getting sucked in.
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Post by stampinmama on Aug 28, 2010 16:48:18 GMT -5
Do you all realize why they had to write this betrothal stuff in 2009? Because in 2008, the McDonalds established themselves as experts on betrothal and said stupid stuff like a betrothal required a divorce and was as binding as a marriage. Yeah, and then their daughter broke her engagement/betrothal. They wrote that post to cover up their errors and the fact that they're making it up as they go along. Why? Because they are no more experienced at this stuff than anyone else. What's funny is that most people listen to others who have tried and tested success. These young whipper snapper know it alls don't know any more than the next guy, but they're making money off of it. It's all smoke and mirrors. This stuff really makes me sick. Totally ill. I hate it when people make up the rules as they go along when it's convenient for them, all the while judging others for not doing it "their way." AND while making money off the whole thing.
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Post by stampinmama on Aug 28, 2010 16:51:40 GMT -5
But they let the dust settle for awhile and then just plug on like nothing happened. Enough people circulate out of the group and people have short memories, so for many, the garbage doesn't catch up fast enough to deter people from getting sucked in. Ugh, that's exactly how it is with John Thompson, the guy that headed up the cult we were part of in southern Vermont. He married off one of his daughter's through a reformed dating website where fathers picked out spouses for their children. The other two daughters didn't want to go like that so one eloped with a JW and the other moved to Germany to become and get married to an athiest. He publicly wrote off the two daughters that left as THEM failing the system, not the system failing them. And yet he is still in ministry. UGH UGH UGH!
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 16:52:03 GMT -5
People find my motivations questionable for getting involved with some of these endeavors.
For many years, we generously supported some of these "ministries" that helped establish patriarchy. We had no clue that this stuff would mushroom into what it did, and essentially, my husband and I helped build the foundations that allowed groups like Vision Forum to prosper. We never supported Vision Forum, but we supported American Vision, Chacedon, Ligonier, and RC Sproul, Jr, some of them for decades.
We believed we had a duty to expose the truth because we had contributed to these groups and because we watched them rake havoc on people around us. We had the experience and knowledge to address many of these problems, so I made it my full-time commitment to articulate the anti-cult message to those in patriarchy in order to help get people out of it. I felt a duty to pay back the love and care shown to me by others by extending that same help to other people like us.
What I intended to be a three month effort became about a two year effort.
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Post by stampinmama on Aug 28, 2010 16:56:42 GMT -5
What I intended to be a three month effort became about a two year effort. I'm glad you made that effort. It's helping a lot of people!
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 16:58:31 GMT -5
But they let the dust settle for awhile and then just plug on like nothing happened. Enough people circulate out of the group and people have short memories, so for many, the garbage doesn't catch up fast enough to deter people from getting sucked in. Ugh, that's exactly how it is with John Thompson, the guy that headed up the cult we were part of in southern Vermont. He married off one of his daughter's through a reformed dating website where fathers picked out spouses for their children. The other two daughters didn't want to go like that so one eloped with a JW and the other moved to Germany to become and get married to an athiest. He publicly wrote off the two daughters that left as THEM failing the system, not the system failing them. And yet he is still in ministry. UGH UGH UGH! I think that Thomson has his own version of the list of questions for a potential son-in-law, if I recall correctly, but I think it also included questions for the groom's father to ask as well. Thompson used to hold the position that Scott Brown now has in the NCFIC (Vision Forum's thing). Somehow, Phil Lancaster figures into this mix of egos. I wonder what the story was behind why Thompson is no longer with Vision Forum. The egos are very big, and I'm surprised that people like Baucham and Sproul have lasted as long as they have in affiliations with Doug Phillips. If it lasts, I would bet that these relationships are completely perfunctory and utilitarian as opposed to based on genuine, gregarious friendship. I'm glad you're out, Erica. (I actually have some questions that I might like to ask you sometime about that group you were involved in in Eastern PA.)
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Post by stampinmama on Aug 28, 2010 17:05:38 GMT -5
(I actually have some questions that I might like to ask you sometime about that group you were involved in in Eastern PA.) I'm not sure why he's no longer with VF, but I have a friend that might know. I'll have to ask her because I'm curious myself. Ask away. I'm always very open with stuff like that. My email is erikaerin2001@yahoo.com
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 17:07:29 GMT -5
What I intended to be a three month effort became about a two year effort. I'm glad you made that effort. It's helping a lot of people! I owe most everything that I've been able to uncover and elucidate to others who contact me. I've had to do very little digging (which I've spent digging through the writings about the ideology as opposed to digging up dirty laundry regarding people). People find a kind and sympathetic ear, and the dirty laundry pops right up. Frankly, when I'd finally obtained written documentation of the McDonald's unpaid debt and then confirmed the connection between both Vicki and Geoffrey Botkin and McCotter's Great Commission cult, I felt like my dirt-digging was done. Anyone who takes these folks seriously cannot be due to the fact that I knew of their garbage teachings and history and said nothing. It is online to be found. About the time I dug down through to the bottom of what is really called "Multigenerational Faithfulness" from only the free resources available online, any respect that I had for them as Christians pretty much evaporated. I will not say that I know that they are not, but they are preaching a different Jesus. By then, I'd put plenty online for people to search and find regarding what their true message is. Multigenerational Faithfulness, below the nice-sounding veneer, is disgusting rot. If people want that for religion after really looking into what they say, more power to them and God help them. I think it's the height of deceit and anti-Christian rot.
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Post by cindy on Aug 28, 2010 17:24:58 GMT -5
In studies about playground bullies, in things like the Asch Experiments and in the work that Philip Zimbardo has done, when people say nothing and don't challenge bullies, the bullies have free reign and people tend to stay "tight-lipped." That little guy in the story about the Emperor's New Clothes showed great courage, because the truth is that what people like that actually do is tremendous. There is a huge amount of social pressure to blend in. Let someone else say something because the cost to be the first pioneer to speak out is huge.
But there's something wonderful that happens when people do step out to say the things that are true but are frowned upon --- people get free. Each individual has a tremendous effect on others, and people suddenly feel empowered to also come forward to go against the majority or the consensus. This is what Zimbardo talks about and wants to encourage through his "everyday hero" program and the Heroic Imagination project. He wants to encourage people and help train people to learn that we can make speaking up for ethical reasons and against ethical wrongs by making speaking up as commonplace as clamming up.
When Hannah Arendt reported on the Nuremburg Trials, she coined the term "the banality of evil." Zimbardo wants to make heroism as easy for people as the acceptance of these terrible evils became in Germany during the Holocaust.
Likewise, I wanted to stand up to say many things that others were too afraid to say about these groups and people to support those who were too afraid to stand up for themselves, suffering the criticism. These groups will always be around, or there will be new ones that pop up to take their place, but for my part in it, I wanted to do all I could to help others find the courage to come forward to talk about their own experiences.
Something I repeat very often is that one of the worst things about trauma and PTSD is the sense of isolation that comes with it, and that isolation keeps you from connecting with others which aids healing. I wanted to do my part to break though the silence. (And I wanted to give up officially every two weeks since I started.)
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Post by nikita on Aug 28, 2010 19:52:24 GMT -5
Isn't that list insane??? I posted it on my LiveJournal and a bunch of my friends answered the questions and posted them and it was HILARIOUS! Of course, it was all snarky. One of my friends said: "Do you have goldfish? If so, have they been baptised according the to Westminster Confession, or do you consider that to be unnecessary since they are constantly in water anyway?" I about bust a lung laughing. Yeah, that's pretty good. This McDonald crap is...even worse than the first List of Questions that I was ever introduced to--the one by Greg Harris... My personal favorite McDonald Family Courtship question: 'How do you see your future relationship with your in-laws working out?'Honest answer: Um... I'm just shocked that there wasn't a question on there about frequency and consistency of bowel movements (cite examples).
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Post by lucrezaborgia on Aug 29, 2010 14:54:10 GMT -5
It used to floor me when people would tell me that all I needed to do was pray to god to heal my depression. This message didn't change even after I had been to the psych ward twice in 6 months. I now take meds and for the past 2 years I've been better than I have ever before in my life. When I recovered from ARDS, I had a lot of people ask me if I had a new-found faith in god. ARDS has a 1-in-3 to 1-in-4 death rate and just a few years ago it was a LOT higher! I tell people no. Medical science is what saved me. If I had not gone to the hospital when I had, I would have been dead!
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Post by Sierra on Aug 29, 2010 15:59:42 GMT -5
It used to floor me when people would tell me that all I needed to do was pray to god to heal my depression. This message didn't change even after I had been to the psych ward twice in 6 months. I now take meds and for the past 2 years I've been better than I have ever before in my life. When I recovered from ARDS, I had a lot of people ask me if I had a new-found faith in god. ARDS has a 1-in-3 to 1-in-4 death rate and just a few years ago it was a LOT higher! I tell people no. Medical science is what saved me. If I had not gone to the hospital when I had, I would have been dead! I am so glad you got past the naysayers to the help you needed. A healthier theology would bless the doctors and the chemists who developed the drugs to let thousands of people live better lives. I can't fathom a creator, frankly, who made intelligent beings and then condemned them for trying to use their gifts to help one another. My church took such a heavy stance against drugs that, while my mother was a foster parent, she actually took the children she had off their medicine cold turkey, in the faith that God would heal them of their illnesses (and a few snide remarks about how the medicine CAUSED the illnesses). She's lucky she didn't do too much harm (as far as I know!).
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Post by stampinmama on Aug 29, 2010 17:02:01 GMT -5
My church took such a heavy stance against drugs that, while my mother was a foster parent, she actually took the children she had off their medicine cold turkey, in the faith that God would heal them of their illnesses (and a few snide remarks about how the medicine CAUSED the illnesses). She's lucky she didn't do too much harm (as far as I know!). HOLY CRAP! She's lucky she didn't get sued by the state for that!
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Post by stampinmama on Aug 29, 2010 17:38:00 GMT -5
I am so glad you got past the naysayers to the help you needed. A healthier theology would bless the doctors and the chemists who developed the drugs to let thousands of people live better lives. I can't fathom a creator, frankly, who made intelligent beings and then condemned them for trying to use their gifts to help one another. My church took such a heavy stance against drugs that, while my mother was a foster parent, she actually took the children she had off their medicine cold turkey, in the faith that God would heal them of their illnesses (and a few snide remarks about how the medicine CAUSED the illnesses). She's lucky she didn't do too much harm (as far as I know!). The Message church that my husband was in also had a thing against modern medicine. Especially my inlaws, seeing as they grew up Amish and Mennonite before they joined the Branham cult. My husband told me about the time that my BIL had a nasty ear infection when he was younger and his parents refused to take him to the hospital for it. He's now missing some of the hearing in that ear. My husband fell out of a tree when he was a kid and broke his ankle. My inlaws bandaged him up and refused to take him to the hospital. He still has trouble with that ankle to this day. The Amish are also really bad about modern medicine. My husband used to work for an Amish builder and on his way home one time, he saw a young boy (no more than 8 or 9 years old) on the side of the road with his family around him. He'd been hit while riding his skooter and there was blood leaking from his skull. The man who hit him drove away. My husband stopped to see if there was anything he could do. They said no and that they were going to take him home to tend to his wounds and God's will. My husband was so angry about this and asked why they didn't want him to go to the hospital. They said that whatever happened would be God's will whether in the hospital or out of it and they'd rather have God's will happen in the comfort of their own home. IMO, I don't find that comforting. My husband drove down the road and called 911 from a pay phone. He wouldn't have been able to live with himself if he didn't try to help. Even still, my hubby has a hard time taking meds. I don't like to just jump and take meds for anything every single time, but I know if there's something that needs it, I will take us to the docs and get the script filled and he knows that I won't ask him about it.
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