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Post by amyrose on Sept 3, 2010 9:35:30 GMT -5
Ironic, isn't it, that so many religious school curriculae claims to teach "critical thinking" skills when they are really just putting up straw men to tear down with the prepared religious refutation? . I had to use A Beka literature books at the "Christian" school. I liked some of the selections in them and was able to put together a course that I liked between them and adding some novels, but I did all of my own homework questions and never touched their teacher's manual after one read through. The study questions in their high school lit books often have stuff like this: "Do you think the character was motivated in this situation by A or B? Explain why B is the correct answer." Way to make kids think and defend a position And I will do everyone the favor of not typing an excessively long rant about the content of A Beka's social studies books.
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Post by liltwinstar on Sept 3, 2010 10:23:33 GMT -5
Interesting to hear about the A Beka books from a teacher's perspective. My mom used them a bit for homeschooling, and they were awful (and boring). In the 7th and 8th grade math books there were whole segments on cubits and other measurements of the ancient world - all so we could convert the measurements of Noah's Ark into modern feet/inches. Really useful information there. The history book was awful; I remember it talked about Abraham and made some claim about him that didn't make sense to us, so we looked it up in the Bible, and lo and behold, the Bible didn't say anything like what the A Beka textbook said. Who woulda thunk???
Anyway, I was thinking more about the Duggar girls - I don't think it would even cross their minds that they could be a politician or an accountant or whatever. They've been told from birth that women's place is in the home, and they probably haven't been exposed to happy women in other positions. I know it blew my mind a little when I got out of the church bubble and found that there are some women who are happy in their jobs and had happy kids who went to public school and all that. We were told all the time that it just wasn't possible to be happy that way, that it was evil, you would get divorced, your kids would hate you, etc.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Sept 3, 2010 10:53:26 GMT -5
You know, after reading through this thread I'm beginning to think that having six of my kids run away from home before the age of 18 was not the tradgedy I thought it was, but a blessing in disguise. Try as I would to "shelter" them, the darned kids just would not stay sheltered! *I* was the sheltered one! In fact, I feel like I am the one who is emerging from the fundy dungeon out into the sunlight after many years mouldering there.
I had a gratifying discussion with my eldest daughter, who is 28, this week. She told me that she couldn't imagine being able to have the discussion we had a few years ago without feeling like she was being judged and put down by my worldview and list of rules of what constituted godly living. Instead we were able to look at what she was struggling with from a more reality based and non-judgemental perspective. Her telling me that and the real connection we made was worth more than anything else on the face of the planet to me.
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Post by egalgirl on Sept 3, 2010 19:15:29 GMT -5
What boggles my mind about QF/P people is that they do not seem to trust the job they did raising their own kids!
I know families whose adult kids still live at home [This in an of itself is not necessarily a bad thing; a college student can save tons of $$ by commuting instead of living in the dorm!] and who have to ask their parents' permission for everything from "Can I go to the store?" to "Is it okay for me to be in a relationship with so-and-so?"
On one hand, I am told that these kids are so much more mature and head and shoulders above others their age, but the lack of freedom they receive tells me the opposite.
In my house, the more trustworthy/mature/level-headed we proved ourselves to be, the MORE freedom we were given. And once I became an adult, my mom never stopped loving me and praying for me, but it was up to me to start living my life - making decisions - and yes, sometimes failing and learning what to do when I messed up.
Maturity is more than just knowing how to clean the house and make tater tot casserole! Without being given the freedom to make their own life decisions, the Duggar girls will never truly be mature adults - no matter how many babies they have!!
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Post by egalgirl on Sept 3, 2010 19:20:17 GMT -5
Interesting to hear about the A Beka books from a teacher's perspective. My mom used them a bit for homeschooling, and they were awful (and boring). In the 7th and 8th grade math books there were whole segments on cubits and other measurements of the ancient world - all so we could convert the measurements of Noah's Ark into modern feet/inches. Really useful information there. The history book was awful; I remember it talked about Abraham and made some claim about him that didn't make sense to us, so we looked it up in the Bible, and lo and behold, the Bible didn't say anything like what the A Beka textbook said. Who woulda thunk??? . I remember A Beka Books!!!! We used them mainly for history and English - I remember the English being pretty challenging [and I was an English geek!]; don't remember much about the history. My mom was my English teacher for several years [small Christian school, not homeschool], and she only used A Beka for the grammar portion of English class, and had us read actual novels for literature. I remember her doing a lot of work "doctoring" up the curriculum and writing her own tests, etc., rather than just strictly using what was provided....
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Post by arietty on Sept 3, 2010 19:20:18 GMT -5
I had a gratifying discussion with my eldest daughter, who is 28, this week. She told me that she couldn't imagine being able to have the discussion we had a few years ago without feeling like she was being judged and put down by my worldview and list of rules of what constituted godly living. Instead we were able to look at what she was struggling with from a more reality based and non-judgemental perspective. Her telling me that and the real connection we made was worth more than anything else on the face of the planet to me. That is great to hear Cheryl and I agree, it's worth SO MUCH. I love the relationship I have with my kids now, I love their freedoms to explore life and ideas. They are all on their own paths.. I was allowed my own path in life, why shouldn't they be allowed the same? (Oh right.. because the path is narrow.. bleh)
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Post by arietty on Sept 3, 2010 19:27:32 GMT -5
What boggles my mind about QF/P people is that they do not seem to trust the job they did raising their own kids! I know families whose adult kids still live at home [This in an of itself is not necessarily a bad thing; a college student can save tons of $$ by commuting instead of living in the dorm!] and who have to ask their parents' permission for everything from "Can I go to the store?" to "Is it okay for me to be in a relationship with so-and-so?" On one hand, I am told that these kids are so much more mature and head and shoulders above others their age, but the lack of freedom they receive tells me the opposite. In my house, the more trustworthy/mature/level-headed we proved ourselves to be, the MORE freedom we were given. And once I became an adult, my mom never stopped loving me and praying for me, but it was up to me to start living my life - making decisions - and yes, sometimes failing and learning what to do when I messed up.! Yes I have certainly seen this.. and you really bring out the weird contrasts you get in some sheltering families. On the one hand you have the seemingly mature adolescent who can talk politics and express themselves well and impress adults but on the other hand they have to run everything past mom and dad for approval long past their teenage years. My QF friend has recently expressed exasperation that her daughter in her 20's is not seeking their approval for decisions but just .. DOING them. LOL. She was the only "good" child of the her adult ones and yet she isn't following the formula! In many families these ridiculous ideas just fade away as unworkable and the adult kids are adults, whatever seminar tape lectured the parents into thinking it should be otherwise long forgotten. But sometimes the parents actually succeed and that is not a pretty sight. I know several families still have all the kids at home into their 20's now, no girlfriend or boyfriend in sight, still working in the family business in some cases.
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Post by arietty on Sept 3, 2010 19:28:11 GMT -5
Abeka: my kids really liked Abeka because it had COLOR pictures unlike the endless Rod and Staff. And the chapters were short unlike the endless Rod and Staff..
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Post by freefromtyranny on Sept 3, 2010 20:17:24 GMT -5
On one hand, I am told that these kids are so much more mature and head and shoulders above others their age, but the lack of freedom they receive tells me the opposite. Maturity is more than just knowing how to clean the house and make tater tot casserole! Without being given the freedom to make their own life decisions, the Duggar girls will never truly be mature adults - no matter how many babies they have!! But in QF/P "maturity" is the ability to suck it up and stuff all those frustrations over being treated like a 6yo somewhere deep deep inside.
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Post by cherylannhannah on Sept 3, 2010 23:15:42 GMT -5
After I made that post about my eldest daughter today, she phoned me to ask a few questions about some things we discussed recently. She ended the phone call crying and started me doing the same when she told me that she's been watching me for the past few years and seeing the changes that I have been making. She said she is proud of me and that I inspired her to believe that she too could overcome her fear of new things and the issues that are holding her back. Makes all the crap we endured worthwhile.
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 4, 2010 10:35:41 GMT -5
I haven't watched the show, not having television, but the impression I get from the article is that the Duggar girls *are* refreshingly free of some damaging ideas and behaviours that they would have gotten from mainstream American culture. Mr. Richards does not have to be crazy to notice this or be pleased by it. Western culture is not that healthy or supportive place for teen girls, or teens in general. A few examples of the pressures and constraints on them: - beauty magazines creating intense pressure to look right and buy lots of product - fashion industry sending clear silent messages that certain body types aren't acceptable - teenage boys -- typically hormone-driven and awkward, but some are also clueless, entitled, or just plain cruel. Often they reinforce most of the rest of this list. - far too much emphasis on celebrities who don't actually do much beyond look pretty, party, and have stupendous amounts of money, giving people a seriously distorted view of the value of work and money and their relationship to eachother. - very mixed messages about sex and what the kind and quantity you have say about you - rape and sexual harassment - a part of your life that you want to spend on equal parts fun and doing something cool and real is regulated by others such that you can't get enough of either. The Duggar girls have skipped all that stuff, and instead have certain things that are good for you: - real and valuable work to do for people who appreciate their contributions - a clear framework of values and expectations, which gives the world structure and solidity - a large loving family to belong to and be supported by I think that list is a key to why people join cults and related movements in the first place. I'm not saying cults are good for you...just that they do offer something real and good in the package, and those real and good things are a big part of why people join or stay. The question is, what damaging "Biblical" ideas or behaviours have been substituted for the damaging mainstream ones? The Duggar girls may be free to be themselves in some ways that many modern American girls aren't, but I'm sure they've paid for it in freedoms that those modern girls take for granted. Peer pressure from friends has been replaced by familiar pressure with dire consequences for rebelling. So they may not have to be 36-24-36 with DD-boobs to think of themselves as beautiful. The beauty standards placed on them are much harsher. To be beautiful, they must be meek and hold their tongues if their thoughts might be the opposite of the men in their lives, and then they must work on changing their thoughts. Also being overweight is seen as a sign of gluttony for young, unmarried women. So you're wrong about there being no physical expectations regarding beauty. I know one girl from a QF family who routinely starves herself striving to be thin so that se won't be considered a glutton. They must be submissive, allow men in their lives the final say. They have as much choice as red shirt or blue shirt, and there was quite a few years when they didn't even have that much choice. They do not get to choose their own friends. Their hobbies are chosen for them. The expectations on them are so rigid that if they were to rebel, they'd be turned out so as not to corrupt the others. Do you think these girls would be allowed to wear pants, or cut and dye their hair, or even go to the mall with friends of their own choosing? Do you realize their husbands will be chosen for them? Also sex crimes happen in QF families. I don't know where you get the idea that they don't. The rate of reported sex crimes is much lower than it should be precisely because women are told repeatedly that they are owned. As property, they have no rights, and if they aren't even informed that certain things are crimes, what is there to report?
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 4, 2010 10:43:52 GMT -5
What boggles my mind about QF/P people is that they do not seem to trust the job they did raising their own kids! I know families whose adult kids still live at home [This in an of itself is not necessarily a bad thing; a college student can save tons of $$ by commuting instead of living in the dorm!] and who have to ask their parents' permission for everything from "Can I go to the store?" to "Is it okay for me to be in a relationship with so-and-so?" On one hand, I am told that these kids are so much more mature and head and shoulders above others their age, but the lack of freedom they receive tells me the opposite. In my house, the more trustworthy/mature/level-headed we proved ourselves to be, the MORE freedom we were given. And once I became an adult, my mom never stopped loving me and praying for me, but it was up to me to start living my life - making decisions - and yes, sometimes failing and learning what to do when I messed up. Maturity is more than just knowing how to clean the house and make tater tot casserole! Without being given the freedom to make their own life decisions, the Duggar girls will never truly be mature adults - no matter how many babies they have!! Another sign of maturity is the ability to make appropriate decision for oneself. Even someone with moderate mental handicaps who will not be able to live independently can learn to make a tater-tot casserole, how to sweep floors, and to ask permission to go to the bathroom before dinner is over. Hell, even little tiny kids can be trained to do these things, and it's not seen as a sign of maturity. Why, for those with handicaps and children, is it not seen as a sign of maturity? Because it's not. Being mentally beaten from birth into submission isn't a sign of maturity. It just means that the trainers did a good enough job of making the trainee too afraid to speak without permission.
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Post by stampinmama on Sept 4, 2010 10:47:05 GMT -5
What boggles my mind about QF/P people is that they do not seem to trust the job they did raising their own kids! My parents were this way with us. They told everyone how godly their children were, how mature they were, how "adult" they were, but yet we weren't trusted with making our own decisions based on all that "great parenting" they did. The reason for that is fear. Plain and simple. Well, maybe not so simple. I remember that when I left home, I was told that I ruined my family's testimony and my father felt like he failed in raising me. He failed to understand that when adult children make their own decisions, no one else is responsible for those decisions except the person making them. He felt ashamed because of how people would think of him and his formula and felt like he had to somehow be responsible for my actions before God. ugh
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Post by ladygrace on Sept 4, 2010 12:51:23 GMT -5
After I made that post about my eldest daughter today, she phoned me to ask a few questions about some things we discussed recently. She ended the phone call crying and started me doing the same when she told me that she's been watching me for the past few years and seeing the changes that I have been making. She said she is proud of me and that I inspired her to believe that she too could overcome her fear of new things and the issues that are holding her back. Makes all the crap we endured worthwhile. Facebook has a "like" button. Imagine that thumbs-up symbol here.
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Post by cindy on Sept 4, 2010 14:09:45 GMT -5
What boggles my mind about QF/P people is that they do not seem to trust the job they did raising their own kids! I know families whose adult kids still live at home [This in an of itself is not necessarily a bad thing; a college student can save tons of $$ by commuting instead of living in the dorm!] and who have to ask their parents' permission for everything from "Can I go to the store?" to "Is it okay for me to be in a relationship with so-and-so?" On one hand, I am told that these kids are so much more mature and head and shoulders above others their age, but the lack of freedom they receive tells me the opposite. In my house, the more trustworthy/mature/level-headed we proved ourselves to be, the MORE freedom we were given. And once I became an adult, my mom never stopped loving me and praying for me, but it was up to me to start living my life - making decisions - and yes, sometimes failing and learning what to do when I messed up. Maturity is more than just knowing how to clean the house and make tater tot casserole! Without being given the freedom to make their own life decisions, the Duggar girls will never truly be mature adults - no matter how many babies they have!! Another sign of maturity is the ability to make appropriate decision for oneself. Even someone with moderate mental handicaps who will not be able to live independently can learn to make a tater-tot casserole, how to sweep floors, and to ask permission to go to the bathroom before dinner is over. Hell, even little tiny kids can be trained to do these things, and it's not seen as a sign of maturity. Why, for those with handicaps and children, is it not seen as a sign of maturity? Because it's not. Being mentally beaten from birth into submission isn't a sign of maturity. It just means that the trainers did a good enough job of making the trainee too afraid to speak without permission. Greetings, Lady Grace! Your post reminded me a bit of what RC Sproul, Jr wrote in his Multigenerational Faithfulness book which I vented my splenic material about on my blog some time ago: undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2009/02/rc-sproul-jrs-take-on-multigenerational.htmlRC 2.0 writes in "When You Rise Up": From Pages 110 - 112: The mother made a confession to me. She told me, “You know, my nine-year-old daughter doesn’t know how to read.” Now here is a good test to see how much baggage you are carrying around. Does that make you uncomfortable? Are you thinking, “Mercy, what would the school superintendent say if he knew?” My response was a cautious, “Really?” But my friend went on to explain, “She doesn’t know how to read, but every morning she gets up and gets ready for the day. Then takes care of her three youngest siblings. She takes them to the potty, she cleans and dresses them, makes their breakfasts, brushes their teeth, clears their dishes, and makes their beds.” Now I saw her rightly, as an overachiever. If she didn’t know how to read, but did know all the Looney Tunes characters, that would be a problem. But here is a young girl being trained to be a keeper at home. Do I want her to read? Of course I do, as does her mother. I want her to read to equip her to learn the Three Gs. [From earlier in the book, he notes the "Three Gs": Who is God? What has God done? What does God require?] But this little girl was learning what God requires, to be a help in the family business, with a focus on tending the garden.
I’m not suggesting that the goal is to have ignorant daughters. I am, however, arguing that we are to train them to be keepers at home. These two are not equivalent. Though we aren’t given many details we know that both Priscilla and Aquila had a part in the education of Apollos. I’m impressed with Priscilla, as I am with my own wife. She is rather theologically astute... My point is that that brilliance isn’t what validates her as a person. It’s a good thing, a glorious thing, and an appropriate thing. But it’s like the general principle we’ve already covered. Would I rather be married to a godly woman who was comparatively ignorant, or a wicked person who was terribly bright? Who would make a better wife and mother, someone who doesn’t know infra- from supralapsarianism, but does know which side is up on a diaper, or a woman about to defend her dissertation on the eschatology of John Gill at Cambridge but one who thinks children are unpleasant? It’s no contest, is it? Naturally we want everything. We want all the virtues to the highest degree. But virtues come in different shades and colors in different circumstances.
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Post by cindy on Sept 4, 2010 14:40:59 GMT -5
I have no idea about who Charity church mouse is, but I blame this thread for stirring up my old childhood song memories. I had a bunch of records of a little girl singing, and I think her name was Marcy. The series was "Marcy Sings." I caught myself singing two of the songs off one of those old records. And last night in the shower, I found myself singing, "Put your hand in the hand of the man who stilled the water..." It is still playing in my head this afternoon! (Though I suspect that my current song in mind is probably more enjoyable than the mouse singer.)
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Post by nikita on Sept 4, 2010 15:20:57 GMT -5
That song was a big hit on the rock and roll top forty stations of the early seventies. I heard it on the radio all the time and the most secular of people could sing it by heart if they wanted to. It either came from an old christian song and was adapted by that particular rock band or was written by that band and used by the children's ministry song industry later on because it was simple and catchy. I don't recall the name of it or who sang it though.
When I personally hear that song I mostly think about hanging out with friends and listening to Top 40 radio.
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Post by coleslaw on Sept 4, 2010 15:40:10 GMT -5
Yes, but R.C. Sproul, it isn't all about you, is it? And how long does it take to learn "which side is up on a diaper", especially a cloth diaper which doesn't have an up? Surely if you can learn the differences between the various kinds of lapsarianism, you can figure out a diaper if you need to. You don't even have to like kids to know how to change one. It doesn't really take a long period of apprenticeship, although the Sprouls of the world might prefer to think it does, since that gives them an excuse for not changing the damn diaper themselves.
The better question to ask is "Who is more prepared to take care of herself in the world, a woman who has been encouraged to develop her mind and learn important skills like reading and math, or one who has been confined to domestic tasks?"
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Post by cherylannhannah on Sept 4, 2010 16:17:50 GMT -5
I have no idea about who Charity church mouse is, but I blame this thread for stirring up my old childhood song memories. I had a bunch of records of a little girl singing, and I think her name was Marcy. The series was "Marcy Sings." If it is who I think it is, I had the same songs as a kid, only the album we had was "Sing Along with Marcy" Marcy was actually a ventriloquist dummy who was operated by some woman who couldn't manage to sing without sounding like a little kid. So she turned her peculiar abilities into a way of singing for children. "Jesus wants me for a sunbeam to shine for him each day." Gee thanks, Cindy! ;D
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Post by Sierra on Sept 4, 2010 17:22:33 GMT -5
I resemble this remark. Why can't the world be full of different kinds of women, some of whom like spending their time around infants and who don't puke at the drop of a diaper, and others who can spend days in a dusty archive full of hundred-year-old mold spores and come up grinning with a new discovery? Surely there are men on both sides of that fence, too, who aren't allowed to spend enough time with their children because of cultural "breadwinning" expectations. Oh, right... I forgot again how I'm just a walking womb. Silly me and my glitchy lady brain, thinking I'm people all the time!
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Post by tapati on Sept 4, 2010 18:01:41 GMT -5
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Post by nikita on Sept 4, 2010 18:09:32 GMT -5
Tapati - what is it? I don't have flash because it screws up with my computer so I want to know if this is something I should download flash to see or not. Thanks.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 4, 2010 18:27:47 GMT -5
I know what my husband would have said in response to this, before he was married:
Who would make a better wife and mother, someone who doesn’t know infra- from supralapsarianism, but does know which side is up on a diaper, or a woman about to defend her dissertation on the eschatology of John Gill at Cambridge but one who thinks children are unpleasant?
He'd have said, "I don't want a wife because I want someone to diaper the babies. I want a wife because I someone to talk to and be my friend and companion. The woman about to defend her dissertation sounds much more interesting. But if she really doesn't want children, she'd probably be happier with another man than me."
As for whether it would make me uncomfortable that a nine-year girl couldn't read, damn straight it would. It would make me furious! Not, as Sproul thinks, because of what other people would think, but because of what it must mean to that poor child to be nothing but a drudge, who can't even escape the bleakness of her days with Alice or Pooh.
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Post by coleslaw on Sept 4, 2010 18:45:39 GMT -5
Anne Murray had the first version of "Put Your Hand in the Hand", but the Top 40 version belonged to a group called Ocean in 1971. Murray's version only made it to number 67 on the country charts. Ocean's version made it to number 2 on the pop charts, so that's probably the version people remember.
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Post by cindy on Sept 4, 2010 19:05:56 GMT -5
Oh, the fundy weirdness!
Sing along with Marcie or Marcy sings... same difference.
I've got a mansion, just over the hilltop... In a bright land where we'll never grow old And some day yonder, we will never more wander, But walk on streets that are purest gold.
I think I remember a cartoon Marcy on the album.
I remember feeling horribly anxious all the time then, but not quite so spoiled. That innocence did not last very long. I loved to sing and learn the words to every song on every record we had. I would play them over and over and beg my mom to write down all the words, as I would not understand them all.
Somehow, that wide-eyed innocence seemed free, between the bouts of feeling terrified all the time.
Sigh. I should probably sing more.
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