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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 14, 2010 9:56:12 GMT -5
Do the 99 righteous sheep bleat, “Whatever it takes”? by Vyckie nolongerquivering.com/2010/05/14/do-the-99-righteous-sheep-bleat-whatever-it-takes/I went back and forth with myself about whether or not to post this ~ finally decided, What the hell? My apologies if it's too self-pitying and accusatory ~ just seemed like something that needs to be said. I am feeling better today ~ I promised to have a better outlook and I do ~ see me smile?
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Post by burris on May 14, 2010 10:39:07 GMT -5
Wow. Ouch.
I hope what I'm about to say will make sense (and that you won't be offended by my expression of religious views in this context):
I think some of your former friends are genuinely afraid that in hanging around you, they'll begin to doubt their own faith. That's not a good excuse, but it is an all-too-human reaction.
As for Pastor Tom - well, sometimes it takes trouble in your own life to reveal who your enemies are, and that's precisely what this guy is. Sorry you got burned by him, and in such a deeply personal way, but he's simply a garden-variety dick who happens to have religion in the arsenal of weapons he uses against those he considers weaker than himself.
I know you're an atheist now, and that you were deeply wounded through participation in the QF movement, but it seems to me that you're still a better Christian than some of your friends were - and I firmly, utterly believe that in the end, there is a God who will look at your honesty, and at all the hard work you've done in faith that others would benefit, and conclude you were good and faithful whether you recognized the existence of such a being or not.
Because it seems to me that belief in Christ is not an emotion, or reciting the "magic words" of a sinner's prayer. It's not a repudiation of all that's fun, or the avoidance of public schools, or participation in a house church.
It is, at its core, a fundamental respect for "the least of these," in whom Christ is said to dwell.
And even at your lowest, when you were beaten down and losing your faith, you still tried to help another person in need with the words you knew would comfort her even though these words maybe struck you as hollow and even offensive.
You then helped to found a website as an outreach to other people in your situation, even in the midst of your own healing; and on this site you post honestly about the struggles you face while at the same time telling other abused woman - more of the "least of these" - to take heart.
You're developing tools to help them take back control of their own lives, fully believing they're capable; fully believing they have every right to be treated with dignity and respect.
Such faith is rare.
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Post by dorayp on May 14, 2010 10:48:08 GMT -5
Vyckie, I've walked that walk and I don't know what hurts more, the fact that I'm being shunned, or that my children are being shunned. The day after our former pastor told us to leave and never come back, he called all our friends and told them we were enemies of the church and to stay away from us. He told them we were fallen and until we came to repentance, they were in danger. We found out through friends who refused to listen to him that he preached about us for weeks! The reality is, he needs them to be afraid of us, because WE MAKE SENSE! None of what the patriarchal movement teaches is what Christ taught. You're right, that's not a religion you need or want.
We still consider ourselves Christian, but we have exactly 2 friends from that life. It's been 3 years since we were booted out of our church, and we're still picking up the pieces. After being told not to talk about it because it would only hurt us further, we now talk about it daily. It's the only thing that is healing us. Every time I read your blog, I am encouraged and amazed by your strength. You are allowed to ask why, you are allowed to demand answers! This is all part of the healing process, going through the pain and coming out on the other side. I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. We are going to a Non-Denominational Church, we have new friends (and friends that stuck by us before we were fundamentalists), and we realize that type of life was never what Christ taught. Shame on those who are judging you! Hang in there! There will be a day where it won't hurt as much!
Blessings! Dorinda
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autumn
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by autumn on May 14, 2010 10:50:23 GMT -5
This, exactly. People are deep down doubting their faith, this is a known reaction and it's why people inside any movement tend to shun those who leave and protect their children from the larger world. Fear that new ideas will somehow challenge the faith, even if they label the ideas "corrupting" or whatever.
Hang in there, you've been through so much in your life, you WILL get through this too!!
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Post by francescateresa on May 14, 2010 10:53:29 GMT -5
Yes, such faith is rare!
The ostracizers, the shunners, the gossipers, I think that they look at the world in a 'Us' versus 'Them' mentality. As is common with fundamentalist of any stripe, the acceptable definition of 'Us' is very narrow.
I am not religious, though I was at one point in my life, but I always found that the most Christ Like people were compassionate, empathetic, and very rarely did they ever profess to have faith (even if they had faith). Some were even atheists! They just helped and cared for anyone because it was the right thing to do.
This is a hard thing to ask anyone who has been ostracized to do, but please ignore the gossip and the faded friendships. Those people are not stronger than the community norms that hold them bound to their righteous lifestyles! You have proven that you are stronger!
Hugs from us who are too far away to give you a hug in person! Vickie, thank you for your hard work and dedication!
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Post by journey on May 14, 2010 10:57:28 GMT -5
(((((hugs))))) Haven't been around very much lately, but just wanted to give you a big hug, Vyckie. When I started down this road, I remember feeling like, "Hey, at least I've got this amazing support network to help carry me through." In the end, though, it wasn't all that long before all I had was my own self. I don't know....I wonder if it's the weight of what a woman has to go through to walk out of the huge mess? It's so big, and she's lost herself in there so is not quite functioning with all of her strength, brain power or energy.......and there are so many kids to go with it...? That kind of thing needs a STRONG support system....but most people have their own lives to deal with, their own dramas....the woman leaving an abusive husband with a whole pile of kids is like, an EPIC drama......and I think that very few people have the ability to help with a crisis of that proportion. I also think that very few people actually UNDERSTAND the epic proportions of what is being done, when a woman with a pile of kids leaves an abusive man, and/or spent years in a spiritually abusive system. I think that very few average people really comprehend just how damaging that is, since the wounds are almost all on the inside of the soul, not flapping around on the outside. I don't know. As my support network evaporated, I thought it was me, at first. Of course I did, because I was well-practiced in the fine art of beating myself up and/or finding a way to blame it all on myself. In the end, though, I think it's just life. It wasn't their job to hold my hand and walk me through, so I can't blame them for not. It also isn't their job to love me, no matter what. I mean, I've changed. I'm not who I was. Many of my friends in that arena liked the old me, the one who was "like-minded." Turns out, our friendship was based on our mutual enjoyment in things in that conservative Christian world, NOT based on actual connectedness between persons. I used to be what they were looking for in a friend----"like-minded" and all that. Now, I'm not. I don't think that's good or bad, it just...is. I'm different. It's time for a new circle of friends. I am loving new circle that is steadily growing. It's slow and it takes awhile....but it shows great promise. And I'm loving that *I'm* steadily growing....into who I am, not into who I worked so hard to be for all those years. I feel like it is mostly processed through, the grief of losing my former friends. There was so much grief in my heart over some of the closer relationships...felt like such a rejection... I think it's fair to give ourselves time to process through that. One loss in particular shocked me beyond words, and was, in many ways, more painful than the loss of my marriage. I just wasn't expecting it...and I loved her so much. I think I was just too much work...I mean, I was just a paper-thin shell of myself when I finally got up the guts to leave my husband. I guess the way I look at it now is that it's not fair of me to ask or expect someone to love me that much, to make that walk with me. It takes a pretty deep and healthy and whole person to be able to walk with someone through a great trial. I don't think there are very many deep and healthy and whole people around, you know? Some day, I plan to be one, though! Anyways, rambling... Just wanted to pass along a big huge (((((hug))))). Love ya.
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Post by km on May 14, 2010 11:07:59 GMT -5
Hey, Vyckie. I can understand all of these thoughts and feelings, and at times have felt them myself.
I hadn't heard the word "paraphiliac" before and had to look it up... Christ, what kind of people would start such vicious rumors?
I guess I have some thoughts about this, but I'm not sure how best to articulate them:
What Pastor Tom said to you is repugnant and emotionally abusive. I am glad you have not spoken with him again.
Beyond that, well, maybe a few of these friends are uniquely open for the QF world. Maybe they would like to have something to do with you, but have assumed from your silence that you were not interested in continuing your relationships with them. I have been righteously angry about many friends who have fallen out of touch, but when I've reached out myself... They tend to respond in kind. I even know a couple of QF people like this (But they are unusually open for QF. They drink wine, for example, and the women wear pants.).
On the other hand, I think the hospitality and kindness of the vast majority of Christian fundamentalists is contingent on the assumption of shared faith.* I think you must have seen this yourself while in QF--that is, that people do get shunned when they dissociate themselves from the lifestyle. You yourself maintained those "like-minded" friends while you were involved in QF/P. Did anyone ever leave? Did you always make sure to maintain relationships with those who did? I believe you when you say that you did your best to maintain relationships and to love these people well, but with all of the health problems and difficulties you were having, it would have been very difficult not to let anyone fall through the cracks. I would think this would be impossible (since a great deal of people leave because the lifestyle is so unsustainable). I would also guess that many of the women with whom you were close have similar problems. An uncanny number of the QF/P mothers I met had diagnosed chronic pain conditions like fibromyalgia. I don't know why this is, but this lifestyle seems to be really hard on the health of women in many ways (ETA: I mean, I know that chronic birthing takes a toll, but I don't understand the medical reasoning for the fibro connection.). At least some of the women you knew are likely going through similar problems and don't have the energy to reach out to anyone.
Also, I know that there's a sort of unspoken imperative in the communities not to stay in contact with friends who are "unequally yoked." People who reach out to you from within the community could risk losing their families and their communities. It's *hard* to go through that, as you know. It doesn't excuse their silence or cowardice one bit, but I don't know if it may help you to work through your anger about it?
People don't tend to think about us as much as we think they do. I mean, yeah, it sounds like there are some toxic people out there spreading vicious rumors, but on the whole, I suspect that people just get wrapped up in their own lives. Given that so many of these people have large families, I suspect that it's difficult to keep in touch with anyone whom they don't see at church or at other homeschool functions. It strikes me that there's very little room for anything *else* in the QF person's social life.
My mom has gone through some similar feelings since her own divorce. This has been especially painful when it comes to not hearing from my father's family, whom she knew well for the 30 years that she was married. But in the years *since* then, we realized that they had no hard feelings, and that they were happy to visit with us--that they missed us. It's just that they were going through their own trauma (involving divorce and addiction), and they were preoccupied with the terrible shit going on in their own lives. This ended up being true of some former church friends as well. But my mother was very, very hurt for a long time.
There's this problem in which friend allegiances get complicated when families divorce. I am sure that the complications increase dramatically when you throw a doctrinaire religious cult into the mix.
I am sorry you're going through this. I hope that those one or two uniquely open people from your former life will see the post and reach out to you if that's what you want. Take care of yourself.
*I am going through a period of losing health insurance right now, and in order to get care at the local free clinic (a faith-based organization), I am required to say that I'm a Christian.
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Hillary
Full Member
"Quivering Daughters ~ Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy" Now Available!
Posts: 129
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Post by Hillary on May 14, 2010 11:10:52 GMT -5
{{hugs Vyckie}}
I'm so sorry! It's good to be honest about what you're feeling and where you are, instead of stuffing everything inside. I can sympathize and empathize with you, friend...sometimes believers treat those in the faith this way, too.
I'm sorry you've been sick.
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Post by lovingfreedom on May 14, 2010 11:14:24 GMT -5
Dear Vyckie, I just wanted to say that you are loved. There are those of us lurking on your site that are finding strength in your strength. Yes, you are strong. Your true love allowed you to walk where it was hard so that you could "save" those you love, namely your children. You laid down your life and your reputation for the good of others, your children. "NO greater love has a woman....." As the winnowing fork of circumstance goes out and gets the chaff out of your life, it may be hard, but the crop of true friends will be what remains. Everyone with depth of soul has known the pain of rejection, judgements and jealousy. Yes, jealously, for those that grovel in these things have imbedded discountent and it is dealth with by putting those emotions onto someone else. I am a recovering fundamentalist and I can tell you, it is a lonely road. However, I am finding the love experienced with my children is a healing balm. I pray that every hug, smile, giggle, report card, school activity, birthday party, halloween costume, sugar overload, fun clothes, fun hair color, mouthy teenager , baggy jeans, pierced ear, make-up, hmmmmm what else can I think of, end up being a symbol of freedom and evidence of a path to happiness. When you walk in love the earth resonnates with healing and you are a part of that! Feel free to connact me. I would love to talk to you. Sharon Hockenbury
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Post by dangermom on May 14, 2010 11:23:16 GMT -5
Maybe I have a slightly different perspective, I don't know, or maybe I'm just projecting my own experience. I have to say that I don't know your former friends, Vyckie, and I don't know what they're thinking. But over the past year, at my church, a woman who was once a good friend in our congregation has left. She is divorcing her husband. She has not left Christianity--she has joined a different ( very different, opposite in many ways) denomination; I don't know that I would call it fundamentalist but it's probably close. This is a woman who stayed over her shift in L&D and held my hand while I had a c-section for my first baby. I sewed her quilts for her youngest daughters. We were never best friends or anything, but we worked together and were friendly and our daughters are good friends, and we would help each other if needed. Everyone misses her. It has been tragic to watch her family fall apart and her kids be traumatized (I am not comparing this family's experience to Vyckie's, it is very different). At the same time, to all appearances she is hostile to everything we do and we are afraid to reach out to her. I see her updates on FB and can't think of anything to say that won't be bad--the other day I responded to a quotation she posted and I bet she wasn't happy, because I thought I was responding to an anti-religion quote and it turned out to be from a pastor she likes. I emailed her to ask if the girls could play, and got no response--I'm nervous about trying again. How do I reach out to a woman who, as far as I can tell, would be perfectly happy never to hear from me again? If you've got tips, let me know because most of us want to and can't figure out how to do it. I'm not afraid of losing my faith if I talk to her--I'm afraid of making her angrier and losing what little connection I still have. (I can't understand the appeal of her new church at all.) So, just in case Vyckie's former friends are in the same boat, which I admit they quite probably are not, maybe they're just afraid that you don't want to talk with them anymore. If you feel like it, you could try sending a little one-line message on FB to let them know you do actually want to hear from them and are open to communication without telling them how wrong they are. I would give a lot to get that message. Like I said, probably I'm projecting. I would never pray for my former friend to go through horrible trials in hopes that she will repent. (Usually I pray for her to feel the Spirit and be blessed, God will just have to do the rest there because I don't even know what to pray for in her case--not because she changed churches, but because of the other stuff that's gone on.) And I'm sorry to kind of spill all over this post. But there you go--one perspective from the other side.
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Post by angelreneetn on May 14, 2010 11:48:06 GMT -5
Poor mom. I agree with you. I kinda want to post this whole article on my facebook wall so a lot of people can read it.
I kinda think people think you're welcoming in a parapheliac because you wrote the following on his wall: Hey Brent ~ glad to be "friends" with you. And just so you know ~ if you're a crazy person, you'll fit right in ~ and if you're not a crazy person, don't worry ~ we'll take care of that for you. ٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
And since he is a self-proclaimed parapheliac... well I guess they drew their own conclusions. Of course they should have talked to you and figured out you were being sarcastic, since it's hard to tell that just by reading what you wrote...
I really hope people like Lynne and Lisa and Trish read this. It's horribly sad how you've been treated.
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Post by dissidentdaughter on May 14, 2010 12:27:15 GMT -5
Vyckie,
I've enjoyed following your posts for some time now. I grew up QF and married in my early 20s, like a good QF girl. This post really resonated with me!!! After nearly four years of a difficult, controlling marriage, I left, deeply questioning my faith and desperate to just get out! All those Christian friends who were there for me when I miscarried and we went through some difficult times, instantly disappeared. Suddenly, they didn't have time to get together and avoided me if I saw them in public. I heard simular words from the pastor of the church we had attended-- though he was not so optimistic about my return to the fold. Having grown up in QF, however, I did expect this type of treatment, but it was still really painful. I have subsequently found a network of supportive friends and was suprised to find that there were really people in the world who could accept me for who I am, without feeling the need to preach to me under the guise of encouragment.
Anyway, I just really want to thank you for sharing and for having the courage to tell your story. (((((hugs)))))) I hope things get easier for you and that you feel better soon.
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Post by sigaliris on May 14, 2010 12:28:10 GMT -5
Dear Vyckie, so many things that have been said recently hit a chord with me, and I'm about to respond, and then I just think "oh jeez, I could go on and ON about this" and just walk away instead. I couldn't let this one go, though! I think this is the most mild, considerate guilt trip I've ever seen. If I'd had a migraine plus barfing, you can bet there would have been a whole lot more asterisks at play! You are still such a good, er . . . Christian . . . I mean, human!! Many years ago, I had a very similar experience. In our little Christian community, I always thought that the main point was to be hospitable and compassionate. When my first son was six weeks old, we moved into a household whose purpose was to care for guests. We fed and sheltered over 200 people that summer. I once gave my whole paycheck to famine relief because I thought, heck, I'll still be able to get something to eat. We always had people staying with us, eating with us. And I don't mean to say we were exceptionally wonderful--it's just what we did. I often felt quite guilty because I didn't do more. To make a long story short, we were kicked out by the community leadership after ten years because we refused to shun a good friend and former "brother" who questioned the teachings of the leaders. They'd already kicked him out, but he wasn't shutting up, so they took it to the next level and ordered everyone to stop speaking to him. We refused to do that, so they came over and revoked our membership. And after that day, none of those people, our "covenanted" brothers and sisters for ten fracking years, ever showed the slightest concern for us again. Well, that's not quite true--a couple of them did go to the trouble of contacting us to chew us out for daring to criticize the leaders. These were people we'd thought of as friends, mind you. They wanted to show their concern about our spiritual downfall. The guy who had been best man at our wedding, and for whom we'd stood as godparents at his baptism (not to mention endless hours of companionship for his bachelor self, endless meals fed to him, and even having him live at our house rent-free at one point) . . . well, that guy . . . he came over and informed us face to face that if he had to choose between the community leaders and us, he'd choose THEM because they were like Jesus. Oy. I was pregnant with our third child at the time. With our older two, people came around and brought us meals and stuff. When the third was born, nobody even called to see how we were doing. We just literally never saw any of those people again. There was one man, a priest in fact, who also was not much loved by the leadership. Fr. D, as I'll call him, did stay in touch. One time when I'd had some very bad things happen in my life, and no one to talk to about it, I had planned a dinner party. The invitations had gone out before the bad stuff went down, so I felt I still had to go through with it. Fr. D came over to my house early. He didn't say a word. He didn't try to pray with me or over me. He just sat in the kitchen with me and helped me polish the silverware. He showed me love. I've never forgotten that. Dangermom, to answer your questions, that's what I'd say a Christian could do. Just treat people like human beings, just show them love. Quit worrying about what denomination they're in or whether you agree with the quotes they post. Just don't talk about that stuff. Just call a person up and ask if the kids want to go swimming, or to a movie, or say you're going out shopping and could you pick up anything for them while you're out, and by the way you miss them and would they like to stop by for coffee some time--no praying involved! If they're angry, they're angry. People get that way sometimes. It's not something to fear. Maybe it's even worth asking them why they're angry, and then just listening to the answer without taking it personally. (And I don't mean to be preaching at you personally--I'm just thinking out loud and using a general version of "you.") I have one sister who's a Buddhist and one who's a Calvinist. If I yell "GODDAMMIT!" around the Buddhist, she'll just laugh, or ask me what's wrong. If I did that around the other one, she'd be shocked and offended. It's hard to feel loved by someone when you sense they are constantly monitoring you for signs of damnation. I hate feeling checked up on. It seems so odd that Christianity would actually separate people rather than drawing them together, but that's what I've experienced. As Billy Joel put it, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints . . . the sinners are much more fun." Except that I don't think of myself as a "sinner" any more, nor do I aspire to being a saint--let alone both at the same time, which gives ME a splitting headache! I just think I'm a human being, like everybody else. If we all treated each other as such, I think we could all see when someone needed a hand, without worrying over whether God preferred them to be chastised! Oh dear, I do go on . . . sorry for the lack of brevity.
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anne2
New Member
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Post by anne2 on May 14, 2010 12:33:48 GMT -5
Reading this essay, I picked my jaw up several times off the table. Re: shunning - it seems the thing to do. Just the other day, our former pastor's wife shunned my dh and me in the bank. People in that "church" treat us that way all the time. Who knows why people react and act the way they do. It's a lesson to us to be the opposite - not be stupid to get sucked in and mashed again, but at least to be civil.
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Post by anatheist on May 14, 2010 13:39:10 GMT -5
Vyckie, I'm sorry that you went through those experiences. Even though I know that your life is difficult right now, I think it's evident that your life isn't getting worse, and the situation of your family is getting better as you and your children don't have to be afraid of what you're thinking or learning anymore. I hope that you can be encouraged by how far you've come. I had some similar experiences when I left the church and got divorced. One acquaintance told me that he'd heard I was getting divorced. He said that a married man in his church had been caught having a gay affair. That man and his wife were convinced to return to one another; the woman to submit and the man to renounce homosexuality as sin. He concluded by saying that whatever my marital problems were, they couldn't be worse than that, so if god had worked in that couple's lives, he could restore my marriage if only I'd get counseling from his church. I feel a lot of sympathy for both people in the other relationship. I also understand what DangerMom and KM are saying about non-malicious loss of connection. While there were at least 10 people, all part of the Christian community (and not all Fundamentalists either) who turned on me viciously, purposely shunned me, or spread false rumors about me (including the person I'd formerly thought of as a best friend), there were a lot of Christian childhood friends where we just didn't have anything in common anymore, were afraid to intrude on each other's lives, or had lost our common activities (me being unashamedly childfree didn't help either). I talked about it in a thread in the member's section about Facebook. There's just not much that I can talk about with someone whose entire life centers around church and religion (and raising Christian children). **** I know you're an atheist now, and that you were deeply wounded through participation in the QF movement, but it seems to me that you're still a better Christian than some of your friends were - and I firmly, utterly believe that in the end, there is a God who will look at your honesty, and at all the hard work you've done in faith that others would benefit, and conclude you were good and faithful whether you recognized the existence of such a being or not. I'm sorry for nitpicking, but I feel that this is a very offensive and presumptuous statement.
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Post by usotsuki on May 14, 2010 14:05:18 GMT -5
Ugh, imprecatory prayer (i.e., rather than praying for someone, praying against someone).
That seems to be all the more and more common these days, with the "Pray for Obama Ps 109.8" shirts, bumper stickers, *teddy bears* and such...and these people have the nerve to say they're Christians, when rather than help people in need, they pray for the DEATH OF THEIR RIVALS?
And I don't see it any less evil for them to pray for someone to fail harder and harder until they come back to the fold, beaten, bruised, battered and broken, ready, waiting and willing for more of their spiritual abuse...UGH
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Post by dangermom on May 14, 2010 14:09:16 GMT -5
Dangermom, to answer your questions, that's what I'd say a Christian could do. Just treat people like human beings, just show them love. Quit worrying about what denomination they're in or whether you agree with the quotes they post. Just don't talk about that stuff. Now that I know what the quotation was, I guess it might have been a mistake. But at the time I thought "Hey, something we can connect on!" How was I supposed to know that "Religion is one of the greatest sources of misery and strife in this world" was a statement by a pastor?? (I replied, "Human nature is one of the great sources, is what I'd say. People will use any excuse to divide into teams of us vs. them. If we didn't have religion, football would do just as well." Which I think is true.) OK, I'll try asking again. Maybe I'll call her up so she can't ignore me like last time, heh. I don't do that 'let's pray now' thing, that would be her new church. I really want to keep the connection to the girls, our daughters do love each other and have been so happy the couple of times we've run into them with their dad. Now that it's warming up, some people with pools can invite them over too (my usual swimming venue is, er, at the church farm's pool...). Me too. Really, that's not the kind of thing anyone wants to do. No one is interested in telling her that she's going to hell, we don't do that.
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Post by grandmalou on May 14, 2010 14:33:27 GMT -5
Many many years ago, when I used to be the world's worst worrier, my son Jim...in all of his 15 year old wisdom, said this to me: "Mom, sometimes you just need to practice the fine art of knowing when to say... Oh, well...." Methinks that is still good advice.
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Post by sigaliris on May 14, 2010 14:53:13 GMT -5
Dangermom, you sound like a really nice person. I don't think you need a lecture from me, and I hope it didn't sound that way. I was just thinking about how I wish my Christian "friends" had behaved at the time. And there's no law that says Christians have to stay connected all the time, regardless of whether it's reciprocated. I was ruminating on what they could do, IF they wanted to.
I've just heard too many comments, back when I was a Christian, along the lines of: "Oh, I would call her . . . but she seems so ANGRY." "She's living a life of sin/she's become worldly/she's not walking with the Lord." Or they didn't want to visit someone because she was divorced. Or had a boyfriend. Or watched TV. One biggie was the idea that if someone had anything of a "demonic" nature in their house--like pictures of non-Christian gods, nude art, or even non-approved reading material like Harry Potter books, you could catch the Satan cooties from them, so it was better not to visit them lest you become possessed. A woman who is getting divorced is going to be judged and judged again by everyone, not just the religious community, so she's going to shy away from any hint of disapproval, even if it wasn't intended.
And even if church people do make contact, I think there can be a feeling of wariness because you never know when they're going to start trying to be a "witness" to you instead of being nice just because. Dangermom's situation is a little bit different, because her friend has joined a different church, instead of trying to get out of the church scene altogether. But I think that church people, as well as those who have left, have a deep longing to be accepted for who they are, beyond their carefully constructed church identity. They might run away from honest, down-to-earth, non-spiritual friendship, but I think it's the best thing to offer.
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Post by tapati on May 14, 2010 15:09:42 GMT -5
First, to Dangermom, why not start by sending her a "miss you" card that expresses your desire to remain close and your support for her in finding her own spiritual path? That could break the ice. Then follow up with a phone call. Sometimes people leaving may isolate themselves out of fear of potential proselytizing or something of that nature.
Second, back to Vyckie's story. It's interesting that the pastor's story involved full on addiction and debauchery--the prototypical image in the fundamentalist mindset of what people "out there" are doing and what will happen if you join them.
Perhaps the real problem is that you're not falling into addiction and sleeping around etc. That scares them even more because it directly challenges their storyline, the one that keeps them afraid of the outside world. Instead, people in the mainstream have welcomed you, you're asked to appear on TV, getting a book deal, leading the way for others to leave. What a major threat you are!
They must take delight, almost, that you are sick because they can say "Aha, see, she's being punished for leaving and now that she tells her daughters they aren't responsible to help she has no one."
It takes time to replace a support system but step by step, you are doing so.
But these people will never be able to replace you.
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anna
New Member
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Post by anna on May 14, 2010 15:17:35 GMT -5
Dear Vyckie,
I totally agree with what other people say. Your former friends must be very frightened, and no wonder. They're constantly told that one will go to hell for this and that and they must behave so and so in order for Jesus to love them. Still, it sucks. And Pastor Tom sucks most of all! I hate to read what people do and say to other people under the guise of christianity. As a liberal christian who has mostly atheists and agnostics for friends, I hear a lot of sad stories about people being hurt by church or christians. It breaks my heart that something which is supposed to be about love, care and healing hurts so many people. "Whatever it takes - a bullet in the head" - what a horrible, abusive thing to say! I would of course pray for a friend who has lost faith, because I believe that faith is something that can help a person and make their life happier and better. BUT I would ask God to reveal His love to that friend and send lots of good people and good things his/her way and I'd ask Him to help me be a good friend. I might actually go as far as suggesting alternative faiths to that person. My fiance is a theravada buddhist, and I have really learned to appreciate that faith, because all it asks is that you don't believe what you are told, just give it the benefit of doubt, try it out for yourself and see if it's good for you. Dear Vyckie, it hurts my heart to hear that your christian friends have left you. I wish there was more that I can do from my corner of the world (I'm in Germany) than just saying how much I admire your strength and how I wish that you will heal and will continue to inspire and comfort people who go through similar hardship. If there is anything that one could do for you online, please let me know. And I'd like to pray for you, in the way I described above, if you don't mind it. (((hugs))) from a newly delurked follower!
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Post by lexibadger on May 14, 2010 16:57:45 GMT -5
Second, back to Vyckie's story. It's interesting that the pastor's story involved full on addiction and debauchery--the prototypical image in the fundamentalist mindset of what people "out there" are doing and what will happen if you join them. Heh, I was kinda thinking that too. I also find interesting the "threat" that god is going to make your life miserable to bribe you back to him, like coming back will ensure you a rosy and happy life. Meanwhile, while you're IN the faith you're expected to suffer and be happy with that because suffering earns you brownie points whatever. How does that make sense? Leave and suffer or stay and suffer. Riiiight. With me, before I even walked away, all it took was missing a few Sunday services (because of work but that's maybe beside the point) and my so-called Christian best friends immediately started with the finger pointing and name calling (hypocrite, back-slider, etc.) How is that supposed to encourage a person to stay? So, so backwards.
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Post by margybargy on May 14, 2010 17:26:18 GMT -5
I know you're an atheist now, and that you were deeply wounded through participation in the QF movement, but it seems to me that you're still a better Christian than some of your friends were - and I firmly, utterly believe that in the end, there is a God who will look at your honesty, and at all the hard work you've done in faith that others would benefit, and conclude you were good and faithful whether you recognized the existence of such a being or not. I'm sorry for nitpicking, but I feel that this is a very offensive and presumptuous statement. I'm sure Burris meant well here, but I feel compelled to say this: A lot of people use the word "Christian" to imply good character. Of course, by implication, that would mean that non-Christians have bad character. Most people in the US are Christians surrounded by other Christians. Its rare for them to run across people who would be insulted by such a statement. They often fail to realize how offensive and inaccurate it is to assume that their particular supernatural beliefs somehow generate good character. Anyhow, I'm straying far off the subject. Vyckie, I don't know what to say. Hang in there. Christian or not, you are a person of great character. I'm sorry your friends from the "old days" have turned their backs. Maybe some of them will come around.
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Post by Sierra on May 14, 2010 17:49:19 GMT -5
This hits so close to home, I can't even comment. I feel for you, Vyckie. No one needs that kind of 'love'.
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Post by quivery on May 14, 2010 19:59:25 GMT -5
Vyckie,
My suffering is pale and a feather-light load in comparison to yours, but there was a time I vowed I would also do "whatever it takes" to please God and obey the commandments of Jesus:
For about the first six years of my life, I didn't go to church or anything because my parents didn't go. I can't actually remember if I believed in God back then, because I was too little and didn't understand the concept. (Not that I do now, but back then, I was more concerned with playing & having fun). Church was something I didn't consider essential to my existence.
Then our next-door neighbor convinced my mom to start taking us to church. When I asked Mom why we wouldn't get to sleep in and have a big brunch on Sundays anymore, I didn't really think "because I think we ought to start going" was much of an answer. Nevertheless, we went, and I learned all about God, the Bible and Jesus. I learned that I was full of sin, and doomed to hell if I died without accepting Jesus into my heart. At the age of nine, I became "saved", because I asked Christ to be my Savior and wash away my sin. Following this, I became even more serious in my commitment, and was baptized at thirteen. Life was good because God was good, and all the rest would follow. I had no qualms making a vow to abstain from sex until marriage when I was in 8th grade, and I looked down on all the OTHER kids who swore, partied, lied and cheated in school, and did all the sinful things that Christians should avoid. They were "lost". I was "found", and blessed because God had come into my heart and prompted me to change my ways.
However, I was worried because I STILL sinned, even though I was a young Christian. I loathed myself for STILL doing all the things I promised God I wouldn't do (like lie, for example, or yell at my sister and call her names). I felt like a fraud. If I were really a Christian, I wouldn't sin, right? Or, at least I wouldn't sin so much anymore because the Holy Spirit (which I also didn't understand) would stop me. Right? The more I went to church and the more strongly I believed in the Bible and what the Bible said the rules for our life were, the more stupid and worthless I felt because I kept sinning and "messing up". I wasn't supposed to do that, because I had the love of Jesus in my heart. Right? Maybe I wasn't saved after all, and I kept praying the "Sinner's Prayer" over and over again. Confession didn't help, because that didn't erase what I'd done. Forgiveness didn't REALLY help, because I knew I'd sin again no matter HOW I'd try to restrain myself or how much I prayed.
Even though the Bible said I was "found", I FELT completely lost.
As I entered high school, I disdained the "other kids" some more, even more intensely than I had in grade school and junior high. In my mind, pregnant girls were only slightly above prostitutes or those girls who "slept around". "Druggies" and "smokies" weren't people I wanted to hang around with, and nor were the people who drank and had (rumored) orgies at their friends' wild parties. I was a Christian, after all, and I didn't partake of such things. I was also a virgin, and proud of it. (I considered almost all boys idiots back then, too, but oh, well)! When I graduated, I knew (read: thought) that God had finally rewarded me for my obedience to His literal Word and my (relative) avoidance of sin. I went to a Christian college, even, for three long years...
There, I was taught that even if you had been "saved", if you died without repenting of the sins you had most recently committed, then you would be condemned because you were impenitent. You could, and would, lose your eternal salvation if you rejected Christ by sinning and then didn't turn away from it before you took your final breath. I almost committed suicide because of this. For the first time, I found myself seriously tormented by lust, rage, and tidal waves of doubt. Christians wouldn't think about sex until AFTER they were married. Heck--according to my school's teaching, they didn't even "make out" because that was a sin. So were dancing and drinking (even if you were 21). Dancing automatically led to sex, and drinking would cause other (weaker) Christians to "stumble" if they were not strong in their faith.
How to get out of this trap? There was a special gift of God's grace called "sanctification", which would make your heart "perfect in love" and cleanse you of the Original Sin that Adam and Eve committed against God. Meaning: you would no longer be tempted to disobey God and sin because you would no longer even THINK of doing such things. At long last, if you were truly sanctified, you were holy and your heart and mind would be fully pure.
I never received that gift, even though I tried SO HARD to "accept" it.
Then my closest old friend in the world died--Grandma--and all fell apart. I realized what an arrogant wench I'd been all those years, and now--now...
To make this long story longer, I sank into a deep, suicidal depression in 1999. I believed that God was speaking to me via an online Ouija board (no joke), and to prove to "God" how serious I was about following Him and denying myself, I barely slept and barely ate for nine days straight. I did not wash. I wore flimsy clothes in winter weather to suffer the cold more acutely. I ate the scraps of food that others threw away and left on plates in the hallway. Then I washed the dishes and returned them. I didn't shave. I babbled gibberish and "prophetic" phrases that absolutely no one understood.
My friends gawked at me in disgust, and the students that I didn't know stared. No matter. In retrospect, they SHOULD HAVE disdained me like that. I was acting crazy--literally--and it's no wonder they turned away from me.
In the end, the administration came for me, dressed in my filthy clothes and a pair of my roommate's borrowed satin pajamas that reeked with underarm and private-part sweat. My parents were contacted, and the looks of hatred, disappointment, and shock upon their faces haunt me to this day. The only words I remember my mom saying to me at that point were, "You STINK!", and "I just don't understand!" Why had I thrown away God, Jesus, the Bible, my friends, and my college career all in one fell stroke? It was incomprehensible. I did not dare to tell them until later that the reason I turned to the online Ouija board was that I thought my late grandmother was contacting me--and THEN "God" spoke up. None of the Biblical platitudes about heaven comforted me in 1999 after she died. I was just supposed to "move on" and "get over it". College--and life--seemed meaningless, and even though I had CHOSEN to suffer, I was GLAD, GLAD, GLAD. Why?
I had chosen to lose everything for the sake of (what I thought was) Christ.
Why was I then disdained, loathed, put down, and basically told that if I didn't withdraw from the college voluntarily, they would force me to leave?
Why wasn't I being rewarded? (In retrospect, I think DUH!, but back then...)
Fundamentalist Christianity still has an iron grip on my life, even though I have left that college. I want to get rid of it. I'm not really all that interested in the Bible anymore--in fact, the thought of reading it (and being summarily condemned for my sins) makes me shudder. I'm done with organized religion, empty ritual, the rules against sex and drinking and dancing--all but prayer.
I believe in Christ and His saving love, yes, but...am I "lost" or "found"?
I don't believe in ChristIANITY. To me, it's only a religion, not a relationship.
I believe in God (still), but more importantly, I believe in humanity.
If I had to do it all again, I WOULD--for that was what it took to break me.
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