|
Post by krwordgazer on May 20, 2010 14:28:13 GMT -5
That sounds like a good approach, Coleslaw-- so I'll ask:
What specifically have I done in my life that shows any endorsement of death or harm (or threat of death or harm) to children or families, as a way to coerce people back into Christianity? What specifically have I ever done or said that even indicates a desire that anyone who has left Christianity, be coerced back into it?
|
|
|
Post by coleslaw on May 20, 2010 15:34:15 GMT -5
That sounds like a good approach, Coleslaw-- so I'll ask: What specifically have I done in my life that shows any endorsement of death or harm (or threat of death or harm) to children or families, as a way to coerce people back into Christianity? What specifically have I ever done or said that even indicates a desire that anyone who has left Christianity, be coerced back into it? Has someone accused you of any of this? In so many words? Or did someone accuse a god named El of doing this, and did you decide that that god named El was supposed to be identified with the god you worship? And did you decide that I must agree with that person about your murderous deeds because I defended that person's right to post what she did? I don't think you endorse death or harm to children or families. I don't think Angelia thinks you endorse death or harm to children or families. I don't know if Angelia is even aware of you. Her post was directed at Vyckie, and to me seemed to be intended to tell Vyckie how to protect herself from harm, not to threaten her with it. I suspect that Angelia's views are the kind of woo that usually makes my teeth itch, but I doubt that she typed "El" instead of "God" just to save herself a keystroke.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on May 20, 2010 15:56:09 GMT -5
Coleslaw, I didn't think you'd take the question as directed to you, since clearly we've been talking all along about what Angelia said.
What she DID say was that the God "El" was the god of "Christianity," that Vyckie should renounce "Christianity" as being the religion of this god "El," and that the "sheep" in the fold of Christianity were bleating "whatever it takes" in agreement with the "jealous" nature of this god "El." She very definitely identified the group she was talking about as "Christianity," with which I identify. I was not just reading things into her words, when I found her post offensive.
|
|
|
Post by kisekileia on May 20, 2010 19:28:41 GMT -5
I'm with Arietty. That post was incredibly inappropriate and disrespectful. If the poster continues to behave that way, I think Vyckie should consider banning her.
|
|
|
Post by Ex-Adriel on May 20, 2010 22:41:31 GMT -5
I won't weigh in on the disrespectful controversy, but I do totally agree that it was completely inappropriate, and personally quite a bit creepy.
I would like to think that it was a warning from the heart in good faith, but I've had too many people give me 'warnings' like that, usually accompanied by offers to 'pray for me' and my reaction is to think - I really don't want you to do that!
I can't tell other people what to believe; that's a fairly basic tenet of communication. But I also strongly think that I shouldn't tell other people what I believe if I have reason to think that it would offend or hurt them in some way.
Based on that opinion, I have to think that Angelia may not have had entirely open and pure intents with that post.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on May 23, 2010 17:00:05 GMT -5
I want to say how incredibly helpful to me the first two pages of this discussion thread have been. Thanks to everyone posting. Even though none of it was intended for me, I still found it beneficial. And NO, the "ninety-nine righteous" if by that you mean those still professing Christianity, are NOT praying whatever it takes. But a lot of fundamentalists are, unfortunately. I met a college student last year, an outcast from her family for not obeying Daddy's every edict, who heard similar crap from a Christian. This girl got hit by a car (she's okay now!) because she had to walk home from work in the dark, and work requires all black uniforms. There was nothing supernatural about it at all. It could've happened to ANYONE in that situation! And yet some Christian told her that it was God trying to get her attention and turn her back to the faith. Who is this mobster God these Christians profess?! This is not the first time I have heard this crap, and it sickens me that people think this way. If I thought for one minute that God was like that, I would be an atheist too, on sheer principle that I will not knowingly support a criminal mastermind thug. Sheesh.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on May 23, 2010 17:25:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure why there has to be a controversy on whether something is disrespectful/offensive or not. If someone finds it so, isn't that enough? I have been feeling like I'm being told, "You are overreacting, you shouldn't feel that way," which has been triggering me, to be honest. I used to be told quite a bit that I shouldn't/had no right to feel certain ways. . .
I'm not angry at anyone or anything, and I know no one meant anything by it-- but I did want to express myself on this. (Though I've also been kind of scared to speak up, but feel I need to, as part of my own healing process.)
|
|
|
Post by Ex-Adriel on May 23, 2010 20:09:07 GMT -5
I'm not sure why there has to be a controversy on whether something is disrespectful/offensive or not. If someone finds it so, isn't that enough? I have been feeling like I'm being told, "You are overreacting, you shouldn't feel that way," which has been triggering me, to be honest. I used to be told quite a bit that I shouldn't/had no right to feel certain ways. . . I'm not angry at anyone or anything, and I know no one meant anything by it-- but I did want to express myself on this. (Though I've also been kind of scared to speak up, but feel I need to, as part of my own healing process.) Oh dear - I'm so sorry my choice of words caused you trouble - that wasn't my intent at all! I guess what I was trying to say in my post was that I didn't feel comfortable expressing my own opinion of whether it was a disrespectful post (partly because of the reason below, but partly because I feel like a newbie here, and that I should keep my mouth shut around my elders - stupid church-fundie logic creeping in where I wasn't expecting it ). I did feel strongly enough about the 'praying for you' and the 'warning' aspects to mention those, but I didn't feel strongly or clearly enough about whether it was or wasn't a respect issue - I didn't feel that I could defend an opinion if I expressed one! I didn't mean to imply at all that other people shouldn't feel one way or another - of course your feelings are personal, and no one can decide what you feel about something, nor should people tell you you should or shouldn't feel something. I know that game from childhood also, and it sucks! I called it a 'controversy' because it seemed like there were some passionate opinions on both sides of the field. I am sorry if I sounded disrespectful or dismissive of anyone's opinion or reaction. Please believe that wasn't my intent at all!
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on May 23, 2010 23:18:04 GMT -5
Thanks, Ex-Adriel. I think you're a sweetheart.
|
|
|
Post by Angelia Sparrow on May 24, 2010 11:53:52 GMT -5
My belief about the Abrahamic god is just that, mine, based on 42 years of experience and interaction with him, both as a fundamentalist and a walk-away. It is not intended to reflect on other pagans or nonbelievers.
The post was not intended to be a threat. It was more a warning as to how bad it can get when a deity takes a serious interest in coercing you back. And advice on how to fight back. I did say there is no reason to return to a spiritual abuser any more than there is to a physical abuser.
Christians come in all sorts from terrorists and those who yell we should burn fags not flags, to the kind who make the world a better place in great ways and small ones.
People will do as they are going to do, and religion is a convenient excuse for their best and worst behavior.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on May 25, 2010 2:16:23 GMT -5
My belief about the Abrahamic god is just that, mine, based on 42 years of experience and interaction with him, both as a fundamentalist and a walk-away. It is not intended to reflect on other pagans or nonbelievers. The post was not intended to be a threat. It was more a warning as to how bad it can get when a deity takes a serious interest in coercing you back. Wow, this god you believe in must be really STUPID if he thinks killing your whole family will make you love him.
|
|
|
Post by Ex-Adriel on May 25, 2010 8:46:59 GMT -5
My belief about the Abrahamic god is just that, mine, based on 42 years of experience and interaction with him, both as a fundamentalist and a walk-away. It is not intended to reflect on other pagans or nonbelievers. The post was not intended to be a threat. It was more a warning as to how bad it can get when a deity takes a serious interest in coercing you back. Wow, this god you believe in must be really STUPID if he thinks killing your whole family will make you love him. I'm getting more a vindictive vibe - "Fine, if you won't love me, then go die." Ick.
|
|
|
Post by rosa on May 25, 2010 9:50:33 GMT -5
I think the post didn't phase me (any more than the Christians who post about the version of God they believe in) because I've met a number of formerly-Christian pagans who believe the same thing - it's not that they don't believe in the God of the Old Testament, they just choose to worship others. They take a lot of the same arguments that some atheists make about the nature of that god in the documents Christians take as their main texts, but instead of taking them as reasons not to believe, they take them as reasons not to worship.
Personally, i think it's generally divisive and rude to talk about the Christian God as if he exists...but I'm definitely in the minority on that, and it's not in the rules here.
On the other hand, it is definitely rude to talk about "Christians" as if only fundamentalist and evangelical Christians are the only ones, and I'm pretty sure we have a consensus against that.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on May 25, 2010 11:54:50 GMT -5
Personally, i think it's generally divisive and rude to talk about the Christian God as if he exists...but I'm definitely in the minority on that, and it's not in the rules here. On the other hand, it is definitely rude to talk about "Christians" as if only fundamentalist and evangelical Christians are the only ones, and I'm pretty sure we have a consensus against that. I think that in any group where a particular point is in dispute, it's rude to present your own position on that point as if it were not in dispute. In a forum where both atheists and theists are members, that would make it rude to talk about God (the Christian understanding of God or otherwise) as if he existed, and also rude to talk about the non-existence of God as if that were established fact. On a theist-only or atheist-only forum, this would be different. The rudeness has to do with ignoring the lack of consensus, as if those who disagreed with you were not present in the discussion. As far as making blanket statements about largely disparate groups-- that's rude in any context, I think.
|
|
|
Post by kisekileia on May 26, 2010 8:03:21 GMT -5
"I think that in any group where a particular point is in dispute, it's rude to present your own position on that point as if it were not in dispute."
Oh my gosh. THANK YOU. We really need this elsewhere on the forum right now. I think it needs to be etched into some people's brains.
|
|
|
Post by rosa on May 26, 2010 15:56:01 GMT -5
The thing is that there's a pretty good tolerance of Christians who talk as if their God exists (though not for the sanctimonious or vindictive), I assume just because it's a familiar style to most of us here. Angelia Sparrow got criticized for that as well as for lumping all Christians together, which I don't think is fair since we don't usually criticize others for it.
|
|
|
Post by Ex-Adriel on May 26, 2010 16:28:47 GMT -5
The thing is that there's a pretty good tolerance of Christians who talk as if their God exists (though not for the sanctimonious or vindictive), I assume just because it's a familiar style to most of us here. Angelia Sparrow got criticized for that as well as for lumping all Christians together, which I don't think is fair since we don't usually criticize others for it. I think the critique was more aimed at the post itself - ie: the 'my version of a vindictive evil god is actively hunting you down to hurt you' statement. Regardless of whether that's a honestly held belief or not, it's a little off-putting to appear out of nowhere. It's like someone suddenly substituting a particularly meanspirited Dutch Saint Nicholas for your regularly-scheduled jolly secular American Santa. Coming out of nowhere like that, it has the potential to trigger/upset people. Upset people are then more likely to gripe about posting styles and whatnot which usually don't cause concern.
|
|