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Castor
May 15, 2009 11:24:26 GMT -5
Post by castor on May 15, 2009 11:24:26 GMT -5
My longlonglong introduction. Sorry (I haven’t even written everything I wanted to write, but my introduction was getting so long that I stopped)
Hi, I’m a 21 year old girl. I have never been involved in the quiverful/patriarchy movement and I don’t know any full quiverers (is that a word?) However my (ex) best friend has some religious beliefs that I think are very unhealthy. And I’m worried about her.
My friend (now 22) met a (29 year old) Muslim man (a Dutch convert, we live in the Netherlands) at 14, she fell in love with him and married him at sixteen and became a Muslim herself at seventeen. During the five years she has been a Muslim she has become stricter and stricter and stricter... Last October she sent me an email in which she told me her husband didn’t want her to see me anymore. My friend believes that the husband is the head of the household and that his wife should obey him ("you can't have two captains on a ship" she said to me once (I thought "but this isn't a ship, this is a marriage!")). If, when a woman dies, her husband is satisfied with her, this woman will go to paradise (my friend thinks this is a wonderful thing. I think this is a very smart thing to say if you want it to be easy to oppress women). So, of course, my friend obeyed her husband, and she and I haven’t seen each other since she sent me that email.
For some time there was some msn-contact though. My friend and I had two sorts of conversations, conversations in which she tried to convert me, and conversations about "nothing" ("I'm drawing pear blossoms" "I'm baking a bread"). I never knew when and if she would talk to me. I never knew what talking meant "would she come back, would we be friends again? Or was this it, was this going to be all there was from now on?". And honestly, it became too much for me. Every time we talked I felt all this love for her... and I just couldn't do it. I wanted to stay and keep having those conversations about conversion and nothing. I wanted to stay until I knew what to do to help her, until I had done everything I could to help her. But some weeks ago I couldn't do it any longer. I said to my friend "You will either accept me the way I am (and at this moment that means as a NON-MUSLIM), or I'll have to end this friendship". She told me she could only be my friend if I became a Muslim because - she needed people around her that kept her on this path, other Muslims (I didn't tell her that I thought a faith that doesn't dare to be around those that challenge it is a very weak faith) - the love that she and I feel for each other will end after death, only love "because of Allah" (I'm not sure that's the right translation. I really don't get this idea, so I don't know how to translate it) will still exist. (I told her. If we only have this life to love each other, I think the best thing to do is love each other with all we have... she doesn't think like this at all) - I don't love the one she loves most of all. If I didn't love her children she would be able to accept that (I was shocked when she said this, absolutely shocked), but Allah was much more important than them and that I didn't love him was unacceptable.
Knowing that this is what my friend thinks/feels made me even more worried about her then I already was. But... I told her I wouldn't become a muslim... so our friendship ended.
Sort of.
Sort of. Because how could I ever leave her alone? I love her… And she thinks these things (that she has to obey her husband. That she can’t hang out with people who are different from her), this isn’t good. It isn’t good for her, it isn’t good for her children (she has two, a boy (born march 2006) and a girl (born july 2008)). I think my friend needs to get out of this strange thing she calls Islam. But I don't know how to get her out of this... (and honestly, I didn't feel like I had the right to think she needs to get out of this until a few weeks ago ("how judge mental of me to think she has to get out", I thought. "how absolutely horrible".). I still have trouble accepting that I feel this way. The more convinced my friend became that only one way of living and thinking is right, the more convinced I became that nothing is as important as tolerance. I breathed tolerance, tolerancetolerancetolerance. I always told myself to be more tolerant. Moremoremoremoremore. So it's hard for me not to judge myself now that I'm being less tolerant, now that I'm even thinking that sometimes it's BETTER to be less tolerant) I don't know how to get her out of this... And yes, I know, I know, it's her own decision. I can’t make her leave. But she's in so deep! She's in so deep that she doesn't even see this isn't right. So I want to help her. I have no idea how to do that. So I thought I’d ask for help here (Love the no longer quivering blog! Love this forum!).
Oh, and please know that my friend doesn’t think she needs help (of course she doesn’t think she needs help). She tells me she is happy. She is always happy. And every day is a good day. This makes me think she is CRAZY. No-one is always happy NO-ONE.
(Oh and something else. When you make an account for the forum you have to pick a gender. There are two choices, male and female. I thought that maybe it would be nice if there were more, like genderqueer or other)
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linnea
Junior Member
Posts: 80
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Castor
May 15, 2009 12:38:06 GMT -5
Post by linnea on May 15, 2009 12:38:06 GMT -5
Welcome, Castor!
That sounds like a tough situation with your friend. All I can suggest is what's been suggested elsewhere on this forum: let her know that you are there for her if she ever wants to contact you.
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Castor
May 15, 2009 13:00:44 GMT -5
Post by castor on May 15, 2009 13:00:44 GMT -5
Linnea, yes it is a tough situation. I'm especially worried since my friend and her husband want to move to Egypt, I think it will be even harder for friend to get out if she lives there.
It's OK that all you can suggest is that I let her know that I am there for her if she ever wants to contact me. Yes, I asked for advice. But just getting some support is wonderful too. I was the only non-muslim my friend was still friends with. So it feels like I'm the only one who can help her. She won't help herself, her friends (all muslim) won't help her. I am the one who'll have to do it. It's such a heavy responsibility. I feel like I'm completely (and I mean COMPLETELY) responsible for two human beings, for myself of course, and for her. Just hearing "that's a tough situation" really helps.
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Castor
May 15, 2009 13:50:03 GMT -5
Post by rosa on May 15, 2009 13:50:03 GMT -5
There are less-patriarchal varieties of Islam out there, just like there are of Christianity -
slit.livejournal.com doesn't write too much about it anymore, but she was married to an Egyptian-American muslim man, and her daughter is muslim. She talks some about the history of Egyptian feminism, which your friend might be interested in.
hedonist.progressiveislam.org is a white Canadian convert who got into really conservative Islam and then got back out (she's still muslim, but not married or conservative.) Progressiveislam.org as a whole is an awesome read, though it's audience is already-progressive Muslims.
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Castor
May 15, 2009 14:05:47 GMT -5
Post by sargassosea on May 15, 2009 14:05:47 GMT -5
Welcome Castor - this is a good place to be. And, I certainly wouldn't object to a designation of genderqueer at all
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Castor
May 15, 2009 16:48:26 GMT -5
Post by castor on May 15, 2009 16:48:26 GMT -5
Thank you for your welcome Sargassosea (why this name? I'm curious)
Rosa, you are right. There are less-patriarchal varieties of Islam out there. I have often thought about introducing my friend to some less patriarchal muslims. To this man I met about a year ago at my university for example (I was sitting in this room that is sometimes used for prayer, trying to memorize the arabic alphabet (I didn't make a lot of progress since I was busy embroidering at the same time) and he and some other muslim men came in. I remembered that it was time for the Friday afternoon prayer and wondered if I should leave. This man approached me and asked me if maybe I could move to the side a bit. I told him that I was OK with leaving too, but he said I could stay. That made me so happy. I love watching the islamic prayer, and I had never seen it from "men's side" (men and women pray separately in most mosques) before. It turned out the man that had approached me led the prayer. He said some things I thought were nice, quite liberal and tolerant. He and I went for a drink after the prayer and we saw each other some more times after that. Haven't seen him in months though). I thought about introducing my friend to my cousin's muslim friends or to my father's muslim colleagues too. But it always seemed so useless... my friend wouldn't listen anyway. She would probably think these people aren't good muslims.
But maybe blogs are an idea. I love the white Canadian first conservative now progressive muslim one. Someone like my friend! (uhmm minus the progressive part). Maybe my friend can identify with her, and maybe this will help her get out of conservative Islam. I wish the name of the website wasn't hedonist.progressiveislam.org though. Hedonist? Progressive? I'm afraid. my friend will read that title and think this woman is a heretic! Ugh. It's always worth a try though. I will send my friend these addresses (thank you for telling me about them!). Who knows, maybe it will help.
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Castor
May 15, 2009 16:59:15 GMT -5
Post by pandapaws on May 15, 2009 16:59:15 GMT -5
Since she is a convert I am guessing her whole family didn't convert, too. How are they feeling about her conversion and everything that has come with it? Do they see her?
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Castor
May 16, 2009 8:53:15 GMT -5
Post by castor on May 16, 2009 8:53:15 GMT -5
Pandapaws, my friend is the only one in her family who converted to Islam. She still sees her parents. There was a time that my friend's husband didn't want my friend to see her mum. But now she's allowed to see her again (allowed, that sounds so stupid, but yes, allowed). My friend and her husband believe that their religion obliges them to have contact with their parents. I'm really really glad they believe this. At least my friend will always have some contact with people who are different from her. But I don't think my friend's parents see my friend's religion as a problem. They did once. But it seems they have accepted it now. I understand this. For a long time I was OK with it too. There are still times that I think that maybe I should stop worrying. That maybe nothing is wrong. That maybe I'm overreacting.
But then I think about my friends little girl. I remember how my friend put a headscarf on her girl when she, the girl, was two months old. "just to see how it looked" (my friend and her husband want the girl to get used to wearing a headscarf when she's still a child). Things like this make we want to cry. My friend has told me repeatedly that you wear a headscarf so men won't look at you. It's a sexual thing (according to my friend). To put it on someone who doesn't even know what sex is, a child, a baby! is horrible in my eyes. Or I think about my friend herself. I remember the time her husband came home hours after dinner for example. My friend (who does all the housework) went into the kitchen to reheat the soup we had had for dinner for him. And he got so mad. Soup? Was that all? That wasn't enough. "But" my friend said "we had that for dinner too". Well, it wasn't good enough for him. She had to make him something different. I think she "made" him some instant food, and he was satisfied with that. (When my friend was done making dinner for her husband she came back to the living room where I had been waiting (I was not allowed to see my friend's husband). We didn't speak about what had just happened.)
Maybe things like these aren't reasons to be worried. I don't know. Sometimes I don't know. (Anyone who wants to tell me there's no reason, NO REASON AT ALL to be worried? I will believe you... well... I will want to believe you)
But to answer your question, yes my friend has non-muslim family members. But they don't seem worried. So I still feel I'm the only who can/will do something to help her.
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Castor
May 16, 2009 9:31:41 GMT -5
Post by grandmalou on May 16, 2009 9:31:41 GMT -5
ACK! Dear Castor... First let me apologize for a post I wrote earlier when I called you "Castro"...really it was not intentional, just maye a dyslexic thing. The scarf on the baby thing, and the soup not being "good enough" for your friend's husband...these two incidences alone should scare the snot out of your friend. But from my own and other's experiences...see stories on this blog...MANY of them...the VICTIM (that would be your friend) will defend the abuser to the bitter end! God, I wish it were not true. Would save years of pain and heartache...as my daughter Sandy said to me not too long ago..."We all have to have the freedom (freedom?) to make our own mistakes"! Why? I want to know...would we stand idly by and allow a little person to run into a busy street? Stick his/her hands on a hot stove? Why isn't one person sharing an experience of pain with another person enough??? Can we ever answer this question? It is often said "Experience is the best teacher...and we learn best when we make our own mistakes..." Oh, really? Funny...I think avoidance would be so much better, looking back...but then sometimes we are so close to the fire we don't recognize it until it is too late... So...like so many others have said on this site...be there for her, to catch her when she falls... Grandma Lou
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Castor
May 16, 2009 9:43:28 GMT -5
Post by rosa on May 16, 2009 9:43:28 GMT -5
Is there a more liberal mosque near you? I just ask because there are not very mosques in the part of the US I live in, but there is a "liberal" one and then the more traditional ones? They may have a women's group you could lure her into. The thing is that grandmalou is right; if she feels attacked she'll get defensive and not listen at all. And since she's not a child, you can't protect her.
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Castor
May 16, 2009 14:49:46 GMT -5
Post by pandapaws on May 16, 2009 14:49:46 GMT -5
I have a feeling her family may very well be worried but won't say anything for fear of losing their daughter forever.
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Castor
May 17, 2009 8:40:08 GMT -5
Post by castor on May 17, 2009 8:40:08 GMT -5
Grandmalou, you don't have to apologize for getting my name wrong (though Castro makes me think of Fidel Castro. And there are probably better people to share a name with). I'm not very attached to the name Castor. I just picked the first name that entered my head. Castor the mortal twin of Castor and Pollux. All I want to say with this name is how much I love my friend, and how connected I feel to her. When people saw my friend and me together they usually mistook us for sisters. We wrote emails in which we called each other sister. My friend often said that if I became a muslim we could be REAL sisters. Some weeks ago my friend told me that it all hadn't been real, we had never been real sisters. Uhmmm... yeah, I had never thought we were real sisters (I think my friend meant biological when she said real) (Plus, there something about growing up with someone... it makes you feel connected to that person in a way you can't feel connected to anyone else (I'm not suggesting that siblings who don't grow up together are less connected though). My brother is my brother. My only real brother. My only real sibling). When I called her my sister I never meant to say "hey, I think we share the same dna". What I meant was, "I love you. I love you so much that to me you are part of me and I am part of you. I love you so much that I want to be connected to you for life". I choose Castor as my name because I still feel this connected to my friend. I am not always happy with it. Sometimes caring less about her would be so much easier. But I care this much. That's just the way it is.
And yes... we all have the freedom to make our own mistakes. But like you said, why? Why? It's so hard to watch when it's someone you love making the mistakes.
Rosa, there are many mosques in the Netherlands. I don't know a lot about them though. Don't know which ones are liberal and which ones aren't (I have only been to three mosques in the Netherlands, and I've watched the prayer at the university). I will ask my Islam professor if he knows which mosques are liberal. Maybe I can send my friend an email when there's a woman's event in one of those mosques, and maybe she will go. Don't think there's a big chance. But maybe she will. I have sent her the links to the blogs you mentioned. Again, I don't think there's a big chance she will read these blogs. But maybe she will.
I think I should have told her about progressive Islam, progressive mosques much earlier... but I haven't.
Pandapaws. Yes, I think you are right. I actually wanted to write about that when I answered your first question, but I didn't (Don't know why. I think I was too lazy). For a long time I didn't say anything to my friend either. I did everything to preserve our friendship. I couldn't bare the thought of losing her. I even thought that it was "good" for my friend to see me. I was (and am) everything she thinks is wrong, an agnostic, a feminist, a lesbian. And still she loved me. Maybe, I thought, this will make her realize that being these things isn't wrong. I can't blame her parents if they are acting the way I did, and for the same reasons.
I have to say though that for me having some distance from my friend made me realize that her situation isn't good for her in a way that I hadn't before. Distance will do that, I think...
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Castor
May 17, 2009 13:41:20 GMT -5
Post by jemand on May 17, 2009 13:41:20 GMT -5
If they move to Egypt before the girl is 8 there is an extremely high probability she will be "circumcised." (4-8 is the typical age it's done in Egypt, and 95% of women there have some level of the procedure done.) Try to focus on keeping them away from those countries. At least in Europe such operations are illegal though trips to do it are scarily common. Maybe give the parents this information. Maybe they could sue for custody of the girl if they are insistent on leaving. I'm sorry for your friend.
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Castor
May 18, 2009 14:42:54 GMT -5
Post by AustinAvery on May 18, 2009 14:42:54 GMT -5
Oh wow, I just about lost my lunch on that last one.
I like to click on the "last 40 posts" button and see what's been said lately, even though I read posts out of context by starting that way. So I'm eating lunch in the office, skimming the posts, and jemand has to point out female circumcision.
How heinous (the practice, not pointing it out). I read, Castor, and certainly appreciated, your struggle to remain nonjudgmental about your friend's situation, but does your friend know about this? Patriarchy is poisonous enough, but when you add mutilation to the mix . . . well, being judgmental seems quite appropriate.
I don't mean to suggest you can save your friend, and her daughter. You're a good soul to be so concerned, but just . . . yuck, yuck, yuck.
I'm trying to think of something intelligent to say and just knowing about that practice in Egypt--of which I was utterly unaware--has left me splutteringly incoherent.
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Castor
May 19, 2009 8:19:23 GMT -5
Post by castor on May 19, 2009 8:19:23 GMT -5
Jemand wow. I was aware that circumcision is common in Egypt but for some reason the thought "my friend's little girl might be circumcised if my friend moves there" NEVER entered my mind. My friend and I have talked about female circumcision in the past, and she is against it, she doesn't think it's islamic. I hope she will always believe this. I think she will always believe this. I have to. It hurts too much not to. Besides, I feel like I'm betraying her if I think she will do something this horrible.
On the other hand.
good people can do horrible things if they think those things are right. And my friend has changed her opinion about many things drastically in the past*, so it is possible that in the future she will think that circumcision is right. So. Wow. You have really made me afraid.
But no no no. No... she will never do this to her daughter.
Austinavery, yes yuck yuck yuck seems to be the only possible reaction to female circumcision. I (obviously) don't know what to say either.
I still struggle with being judgmental though. Maybe my friend is OK? Oh I don't know. I wish she would come on here and see how many people care. This is a lovely place, isn't it?
*Isn't it strange how much people can change? (it's scary and gives hope at the same time) I think the same thing when I compare Vyckie's "tour de crap" with what she's writing now. Unbelievable that she and well, she, are the same person.
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Castor
May 26, 2009 1:41:02 GMT -5
Post by belinda on May 26, 2009 1:41:02 GMT -5
Hello Castor. I'm actually responding to you before making an introduction. I used to be Muslim. I am familiar with European and North American Muslims and I'm very familiar with the convert culture and the trends and patterns of Western Muslims who migrate to Muslim countries. I was, for a period of time, quite religious, and I have studied Islamic law and theology. I think there is a slim to none chance that the daughter would be circumcised. I have never, ever heard of converts from Europe or NA doing this in their family. It is very ingrained in local cultures (non-Muslims in those same places do it, while Muslims in other countries don't have this at all), and any Islamic basis for it is weak enough for today's muftis and mullahs to say it is an old practise or something no longer done without feeling like they are violating Islam. On top of that, I do know quite a few women from Egypt and other countries who are not circumcised. Besides that, when Westerners migrate to Egypt or other countries 'for Islam', they are usually completely segregated from the local culture. So I think it's not a possibility at all. Westerners do not become Egyptians in culture and outlook just because they are Muslim and move to Cairo. Second, I am almost 100% certain that your friend will not read Hedonist's blog. It is very far out there for a conservative Muslim like herself. Hedonist is even out there for a lot of progressive Muslims. The progressive Islam movement in Europe is very, very small and weak. In North America, it was a self defeating movement that for most purposes, is dead. If you suggest this to her, she's going to laugh because these people had / have no credibility at all in the mainstream Muslim culture. Let me tell you, if you point her to things like Hedonist's blog or progressive Islam blogs, she will perceive it as an attack on her faith by someone who wishes to call her away from it. She'll go tell her husband that you sent her this link and that will further set him against your friendship. The Quran speaks often of kafirs - us non-Muslims - trying to persuade and lure Muslims away from Islam. Conservative people like herself, and her husband, would see you pointing her in that direction as a means of misguiding her from 'everlasting Paradise.' So I wouldn't recommend it. In fact, I can't think of any Islamic site I would recommend for you to share with her, as I don't know what type of Muslim she is and most sites are rubbish anyway. The only one that might be worth the time is The American Muslim (theamericanmuslim.org I think), which is full of articles about Islam and culture from a mainly liberal perspective, although not overtly so. As a European, she might be put off by the Americanness of it all. However you could tell her that the founder is a female convert to Islam and that might appeal to her. There is good news, Castor. Most converts to Islam do quit it within a relatively short period of time, while others stay longer, but do eventually quit. There numbers are very high in the United States - estimated to be 75% thus far. I'm not sure about European countries - I'm not aware of studies being done, because the number of converts is so much lower in Europe than it was in the States. There are not so many who stay on in Islam until they are elderly, and many of those who are hitting their 60s and 70s are extremely liberal now - although they were turban and veil wearing in their younger days. One can even see in the example of Cat Stevens / Yusuf Islam someone who was initially sort of a firebrand and following a very conservative Saudi style of Islam and is now playing music and doing other things that are more to the liberal side (for Muslims yes, even though it appears to be still conservative to you). NLQ and the lifestyle of the patriarchal Christians reminds me a LOT of the Islamic lifestyle that I lived, that your friend lived. So keep on reading to get insight. Your friend is not 'allowed' in a sense to ever show you that she is unhappy, sad, or even hot wearing her hijab on a summer day. You must always, always present a joyful, happy face to outsiders. The pressure on women is very strong. Women are considered by Muslim men in the West to be the symbols and face of Islam. There is a considerable amount of pressure to wear the hijab as 'representatives of Islam' and then those who do must then conform to ever stricter guidelines of behaviour and speech that the Muslim men dream up or dig up from Islamic law. And you must be a cheerful helpmate at home because, as your friend told you, the hadith (saying of the so-called prophet) says that a woman who dies and her husband is happy with her will enter paradise through any gate. The only time you are not presenting a front is in your sleep. I would like to direct you to some blog posts that might give you insight into your friend's life: treedreamer.com/?author=2These are posts written by a former Muslim. My personal recommend to you is that you learn what you can about Islam from sources like Council for Ex-Muslims - there might be a chapter in Holland, and there is one in Belgium I think, as well as the main UK one. Some websites are antagonistic and racist, but they can give you some clues into the Quran and Sunnah and their mistakes. There are links in the posts of that blog above. You can simply mention to your friend, 'Why does the Quran say that semen originates in the ribs when we have scientific evidence that it doesn't?' but in a way that it appears you are simply wondering why, and looking for an answer. Any little thing to plant doubts - or get her to question, always question and wonder. Be there for her. Even if you don't talk to her everyday, let her know you're there when she needs you. Most Muslims in the West, especially converts, go through a period of deep devotion, even fanatical devotion and conservativism. A lot of us come out of it. Right now there is a sort of awakening and apostasy among converts in their 20s and 30s, and she could be swept up in that - even her husband might be. Living in Egypt could be a wake up call for both of them, although if I were to speak to them as a Muslim, I would try my hardest to dissuade them from migrating (called 'hijrah' it's a religious thing to move to Muslim countries). You see a lot of North American and European Muslims trotting off to the Muslim lands to 'learn the religion' and 'live with the Muslims' and coming back totally flattened. It is bad for your health, your wealth, and your mind. This movement of migrating to the 'Muslim lands' has disillusioned a lot of Muslims andt here are a lot of Western Muslim converts who get caught up in all sorts of nonsense, like overstaying visas, losing their passports, not being allowed to send their children to school, getting arrested, and worse, although THAT is rare, thankfully. But it does cause a lot of cynicism about Islam and Muslims in those who go, even the ones who end up staying Muslim. I think when your friend wakes up - and she will, even if she maintains a front of being Muslim - she is going to feel deep, sharp regret for the time and years she wasted and the decisions she made. Many female converts to Islam are pressured to give up their educations, careers & jobs, artistic pursuits and stay home and have babies and devote everything to children, men, and the religion. One day she WILL wake up and see what she has done, and I hope it is sooner rather than later. I am like Vicky and Laura, piecing together my life at an age where it is not so easy, and I have children to think of. And a lot of my friends are in the same place.
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Castor
Jun 9, 2009 1:16:22 GMT -5
Post by krwordgazer on Jun 9, 2009 1:16:22 GMT -5
Castor, I just read your story, and my heart goes out to you and your friend. I just wanted to share what I learned as I was recovering from being an adult child of alcoholics:
Ultimately, you can't save anyone; you can't even change anyone. And everyone ultimately has to be responsible for themselves.
It feels terrible to watch someone walk into a destructive situation, but we have to accept the fact we can't stop them. You are not responsible for your friend. I believe you will feel better when you let yourself believe this. Sometimes I forget this myself; it's easy to do-- but we can't be responsible for other adults.
As has been said, all you can do is let her know you will always be there for her if she needs you-- and if you are someone who prays, then pray for her. If she does move to Egypt, see if you can locate a safe place there where she could go if she needed to-- and keep the information so you could find it if she ever does call and need it. Hugs to you. You are a wonderful friend.
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Castor
Jun 9, 2009 17:48:26 GMT -5
Post by castor on Jun 9, 2009 17:48:26 GMT -5
Belinda. Thank you for your reply. It's very interesting, very helpful. I wanted to answer you when I had time to write a thoughtful post, but I'm afraid I will never have time for that. So I'm answering you now. Thank you! (again).
When I read your post I had already sent my friend the links to progressive Islam blogs (Even though I knew she wouldn't like it. Sometimes I get impatient, mad. I want it all to end and I want it to end RIGHT NOW. Sometimes I've had it with being sweet and careful, sometimes I want to say what I feel "this is not good for you, or for your children".) I don't think she has followed them. She didn't react to my email. For a few weeks I thought our friendship was now completely over. I felt bad for myself, I missed her. I felt even worse for her. But she and I spoke again two days ago. And I think we are OK.
I hope my friend will belong to the converts who quit or become more liberal (more liberal than Yusuf Islam please). She doesn't seem to be anywhere near leaving Islam yet though. And she says (and, I think, at least in some way, believes) being a conservative muslim is the best thing ever. But of course she is unhappy sometimes. That my friend is not “allowed” to show that she is unhappy to outsiders makes a lot of sense to me. I think one of the reasons she pretended that she was always happy is to get me to convert to Islam. I am most certainly not always happy (which I think is normal). My friend knows this of course and she always told me that if I’d become a Muslim all my sorrows would disappear and I would immediately and forever be happy. If she wanted me to believe this she had no choice but to always appear happy herself. (And oh no, the hijab is never hot, never. I’ve asked her if it was, and nooooo (My friend started wearing niqab some months ago. And a few days ago when I was riding my bike and my, not even tight, jeans made me feel so hot, I wondered what going outside feels like for her on a day like that. I wish she wouldn’t wear niqab by the way. I think she is making herself unapproachable (she probably thinks that's a good thing))).
Thank you for the link to the blog posts written by a former Muslim. I read all of them the day you posted the link. I recognized so much of my friend’s life. And I think I might understand my friend a bit better after reading this. (Though my friend and I have talked a lot about Islam. And I mean A LOT. Much more than I’d have liked honestly. Sometimes it’s nice to have a conversation that doesn’t have anything to do with religion... but for my friend things that don’t have anything to do with religion don’t exist). Moreover, these blog posts are much better at explaining why I’m worried than I am (yes I know they are not telling why I’m worried). I never really know how to explain why I’m worried about my friend (I think that’s obvious from my introduction post). I wish I could say something like “her husband hits her”, but he doesn’t. It’s all so much more subtle than that. I think it's wrong in itself when one adult is the "head" of another adult, I think it's wrong in itself when someone tries to isolate his (her) partner, I think it's wrong in itself when people aren't allowed to make their own decisions about what's right and wrong or about what they want to do at a certain time because their religion has already made those decisions for them (and when it hasn't it has made the decision that another person (their husband) will make them for them). I think my friend's situation isn't a good one. But sometimes, when someone asks why not, all I can say is "uhhhhhhhh". Now I can say "read this blog. I doesn't say exactly what I want to say. But when you read it you will "feel" the problem". (And honestly I don't understand why obeying your husband/religion without question is seen as what God wants. Isn't God the one who gave you your own mind and the capability to make your own decisions? Have you only received those things so you can show how unselfish/godly/whatever you are by giving them up?)
I will definitely be there for my friend (as long as she let's me in her life, and if she stops letting me in I will fight to get in again... unless I think she would want me out of her life too if she weren't a muslim). And I hope that I will have the opportunity to plant seeds of doubt in the future, now is not the time though. Unfortunately.
Krwordgazer. Thank you so much for your very sweet post. You are right. We can't save anyone, we can't change anyone. And actually that's a good thing. My friend is an independent human being and that's exactly what I want her to be. It's hard to see her making the choice to give up all of her independence though. Sigh. You are right, I will feel better when I let myself believe I'm not responsible for my friend. I know this because sometimes I will let myself believe this. And then, somehow, I will feel responsible again. Ah well.
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Castor
Jun 10, 2009 6:51:19 GMT -5
Post by grandmalou on Jun 10, 2009 6:51:19 GMT -5
Krwordgazer; It took me a looooooong time to finally figure out that some people (especially my mother, an alcoholic) had to be responsible for her own happiness. She was the one who was going to have to wake up in the morning and choose to have a good day or a cruddy day. WOW! What a revelation, and how freeing that was! Some of us (probably most of us) grow up with this picture in our minds that our whole job in life is to "FIX" everything and everybody around us.
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