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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 16, 2009 23:23:21 GMT -5
This forum is for those visitors who, for whatever reason, would prefer not to register ~ but would still like to have an input here at NLQ forums.
Please include in your post either a name or nickname or some way of distinguishing yourself from all the other "guests" here ~ that will make it easier to keep track of who is posting and who we are replying to.
Spam and similar junk posts will be removed. Please be respectful ~ obnoxious comments will be deleted at the discretion of the almighty Vyckie ‹(ô¿ô)›
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Post by Little Miss on Jun 1, 2009 15:31:30 GMT -5
I just wanted to say I really don't like this place. I am 15, my mother has had everything to help her, she has 2 washers, 2 dryers, a Bosch mixer, a Mill(She only makes bread for special meals, we buy most of it), a dishwasher, vacuum, stove, microwave, Cadillac, camera, printer, & computer. My dad tried to get a maid, but mom refused. There are nine of us kids, one is in college, one has a job, and the rest of us are at home ranging from ages 2-15. I do most of the menu planning, grocery shopping, and dinner cooking. I also have the little kids do their school work. My mom wants to leave my dad, and she wants us to go with her, although,"the past 25 years of my life have been a waste of time". I really don't like her getting all of that custody information off of here, and I am not going with her no matter what the judge says. She is tearing our family apart just because she wants to be seventeen again, and you are aiding and abetting her.
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Post by jemand on Jun 1, 2009 15:35:30 GMT -5
I'm sorry your life feels like it's being turned upside down Little Miss. Besides you're almost 18 and then you'll be legally allowed to make all your own decisions.
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Post by castor on Jun 1, 2009 17:01:09 GMT -5
Dear little miss, like Jemand I'm sorry your life feels like it's being turned upside down. This must be so hard for you. You say your mother has everything, I know that's what it must look like to you, I understand that that's what you want to believe (I want my parents to be happy with the life they are living, and with their marriage too. It's not strange to want that). But you know that you mother does not agree with you, she doesn't think she has everything... maybe it's freedom she misses, maybe she feels she can't be completely herself where she is now, maybe it's something else. But she doesn't think she has everything. You know that, and it has to be so terrible for you to know that. I wish I knew what to tell you. I know it hurts. I'm thinking of you. Please know that your mother knows it hurts. I hope you will one day realize she isn't leaving this lifestyle because she wants to be seventeen again, but because she wants to be a human being again, a complete and worthy human being, because she feels the only way to become fully human again is by leaving. Please know that your mother loves you. She wants the best for you. She feels leaving this life is the best, not just for her, but also for the people she loves, for you. You are, of course, free to disagree with her about what's best. You will, like jemand said, soon be eighteen and free to act upon what you believe. But know that your mother loves you, and that when she tries to get you to go with her she does it out of love.
Little miss I'm "on the other side". I'm worried about women in QF/P Christianity and other patriarchal religions. I will do everything I can (which isn't much, maybe nothing) to help women who want to get out get out, because I know that it's very hard (and that's an important reason why I'm worried about QF/P). But I really feel for you. And I love you. Not because I know you, I don't, but because you are another human being, and because your post has touched me. If you ever want to talk to someone, anyone, and even a no-longer-quivering-member will do, I'm here.
I wish you much strength
Castor
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lectio
Full Member
growing...
Posts: 128
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Post by lectio on Jun 1, 2009 17:54:00 GMT -5
In fairness to little miss, I knew of a Quiverfull woman in my own neighborhood who did leave her husband and family and it was NOT a good thing.
She was a head-covering dress-wearing homeschool mom of many, and at first when I heard she left, I was so happy for her as she had been very legalistic. Yet when I found out more information, I became very troubled. She didn't leave to become healthy, she left and became much more unhealthy.
She started hitting the bars every night, dressing in the tightest jeans around, bringing home boyfriends, etc. Her entire family was destroyed and it was SO SAD. The legalistic environment was at least STABLE, but when she fell apart, the kids were in complete chaos. When she left her legalistic world, it was as if she left them, too, and just stopped caring about them altogether. VERY VERY sad.
I just wanted to throw a word out to little miss and let her know that, yes, sometimes leaving is very very healthy, but sometimes it can be very unhealthy. It does happen. If that is what is happening to you, I am so very very sorry. It must be so difficult to process through.
Warmly, Molly
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Post by krwordgazer on Jun 1, 2009 19:26:25 GMT -5
Little Miss, in the state where I live, kids your age have a choice who they want to have custody of them. Your state may be the same. I just wanted to let you know that though you can't control the actions of your mom or your dad, you can be strong and you will get through this. Many times in hindsight, things aren't as bad as they seem when you're going through them. I imagine that you believe in God-- I believe God will help you and give you strength, and that God can bring healing and good in some way, in the end.
It's ok to be angry at your mother and angry at us. I can see very easily why you feel that way. But as you grow and get through this, I hope you will keep your eyes and ears open to see and listen to other perspectives and viewpoints-- not that you have to agree with them, but just to listen and try to understand.
I am praying for you and your family.
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Post by grandmalou on Jun 1, 2009 20:07:16 GMT -5
Dearest Little Miss;
It is hard to see your family falling apart before your very eyes. Behind the scenes though, quite often, is even worse. Until you have been in another person's shoes, suffered some of the same things they are suffering, it is unreal what may be happening. I am the grandmother of seven who were QF/P. I watched them from a distance, because I was not allowed by their father to interact with them, hardly ever. They were not allowed to spend time with me and their grandfather, or play with other children, or even laugh very much. A neighbor of theirs told me the children used to come out in the yard and just stand there, watching his children playing and having fun, but Vyckie's were not allowed. One time his children came into the yard to play with my grandchildren, and their father turned the garden hose on them, yelling...
"Get out of our yard! And don't come back! WE don't allow the children to associate with WORLDLY children who might be bad influences...now GIT!" You know, Little Miss, it was not until about two years ago that I realized finally, that all seven of my granchildren had distinct and individual personalities, with wants, needs, and dreams of their very own. Before that, they just seemed like little tin soldiers, expected to quietly march in place to the constant droning of a very abusive, controlling man. When you are older it will all become crystal clear to you what this blog place is all about. And we welcome you here any time you need to off load. We all have developed broad and comforting shoulders. And it is a place where love abounds.
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Post by kisekileia on Jun 2, 2009 2:16:45 GMT -5
Little Miss, I can particularly see why you're upset about your mom leaving given how much work you do in the family. I imagine that you're probably worried that if your mother no longer wants to do the work of raising so many kids Quiverfull-style, you will get stuck with all of the work, on top of everything you know changing. I think this is a real potential problem in Quiverfull families where the mom decides to leave the lifestyle, whether the dad ends up with custody or the mom ends up working to support the kids. I hope that your mother and the judge take measures to ensure that you don't end up with an even bigger burden of work than you're already carrying.
I also hope it's heartening for you to realize that Vyckie's kids, even though they now have to cope with their mother having to support them as a single parent, are happier now than they were before. Without the lifestyle restrictions that the Quiverfull movement (and, to a lesser extent, conservative evangelical Christianity in general) impose, the kids have much more freedom to discover who they are as individuals. I hope that eventually this can happen for you as well.
I think, also, that you may gain a better appreciation of what women outside the Quiverfull movement have, and what the Quiverfull movement takes away, as you grow older and develop more adult needs. It is possible that you will discover that you want to have a career outside the home, have sex with a person (maybe even a woman!) whom you are not married to, wear fashionable clothing, not get married at all, take the birth control pill (whether for contraception or for menstrual/hormonal problems), have a bank account or credit card without your husband's name on it, or have few or no children. Quiverfull, to the best of my knowledge, does not allow women those choices, and in fact gives women no real alternative but to live a very restricted life of the sort your mother has led for the past twenty-five years. It sounds like your home may have been a consistent, peaceful, loving place to be a child, and it's understandable that you don't want your mother to tear that apart. But Quiverfull is not a kind movement in which to be a woman, as your mother has realized, and I think you may eventually realize that too.
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Post by Little Miss on Jun 2, 2009 10:22:57 GMT -5
I don't really think you understand. We aren't really quiverfull people. We have been wearing pants for years, we haven't really gardened for years, dad lets us play with other kids. Actually it was mom's idea that we homeschool, wear head coverings, and dresses. The only thing we do now is homeschool. Mom says now that she never loved dad. In 1992 when she got on the kid kick dad said she didn't love him and that he didn't want to have any more kids. She wrote him a 2 page letter telling him that she did love him and would stay with him forever and raise the kids. It was all her idea.
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Post by jemand on Jun 2, 2009 10:58:06 GMT -5
Little Miss... I think you may be feeling responsible for your younger siblings, because you have been responsible for so much in getting their groceries, their education, and cooking. But you are not their mother, it isn't your job. You are not responsible for anyone but yourself, you are a child still. And as KR said, you will most likely be able to choose for yourself where to stay. Please don't feel you have to decide for all your younger siblings, and then replace their mother for them.
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Post by charis on Jun 2, 2009 12:50:55 GMT -5
Dear Little Miss,
I am a "quiver full" mom and like you, we wear jeans and don't fit a lot of the stereotypes mentioned above about the lifestyle. I burned out after my 8th child born in my 40's. I was so very very tired. I just could not do the homeschooling anymore... so we transitioned the children into public school about 6 years ago. They are doing great! Last year, the youngest went to kindergarten, so I have long school days of "down time" to nurture myself back to health and strength. And I was railroaded into running for office, so I became a small town politician (which is a good part time job and a great way to get to know lots of people in the community and "have a life")
Your words make me wonder if you are feeling like you are "in the middle" of the marriage problems? I was the oldest daughter in my family of origin and I was "in the middle" of their problems. I was my mother's confidante and ally. It was not until I became an adult that I realized how inappropriate it was for her to put me in that position. Its too heavy for a teenage girl. For decades I knew my dad's problems- alcoholic and adulterer, etc and I considered my mother "the victim". But in my 40's I realized that my mother was a big part of the problem too and I went through anger at her for her failures to protect us from various abuses. (I have processed through that and now I realize that wounded people wound people and she did the best she could with what she had). My point in sharing that is that it sounds like you perceive your mom as "the problem" while your dad is "the victim". I'm sure its more complicated than that.
I agree with the others who encouraged you not to take on these adult responsibilities and problems. I wonder if they would consider sending you children to school and you can just enjoy being a teenager?
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Post by kisekileia on Jun 2, 2009 16:21:29 GMT -5
Little Miss, I want to point out that just because it was her idea in the first place doesn't mean that she isn't allowed to end it. Many people make choices that they regret later, and it's always possible that your mother originally got into the homeschooling/head coverings stuff because she thought it would help renew her love for your dad.
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Post by castor on Jun 2, 2009 17:01:11 GMT -5
Little miss. I agree with the others, you are not responsible. Please don't feel you are.
About everything being your mom's idea. Your mom probably thought everything (homeschooling, head coverings etc) was a good idea. Now she doesn't anymore. She probably feels she has made a mistake. Your mother feeling like this turns your life upside down, so I can imagine you are angry with her. But your mother is human like all of us, and she is allowed to make mistakes, she will make mistakes, like all of us. She's also allowed to say "this was a mistake. From now on I will do things differently". About your mom, and your dad, and how you feel about them. I agree with charis, I think the situation is more complicated than "problem" and "victim". Just because it usually is more complicated than that... or always (I don't know all situations, so I can't really say always). Would it be possible for you to live with your dad for half of the week, and with your mom for the other half? My aunt and uncle separated (they were never married) years ago, but they still live in the same town and their children travel between them. For them, it works very well. Maybe this would be nice for you too, you won't have to choose between your parents. (I don't know anything about your situation of course, this might be an idea that can never work).
I have to ask you. Don't you think you know maybe a little too much about your parents divorce? You are their child, you don't have to know if they've ever loved each other or not, if they wanted many children/homeschooling/head coverings etc or not. You hearing these things might hurt you, and it will never help you, it won't help your parents either (they are old enough to deal with their problems themselves). So why listens to all of it? Not only are you your parents child, you are a child. You are fifteen. At this age you should be discovering who YOU are. You should not spend your time listening to your parents problems. I'm sure you love your parents, and you want the best for your family. but you are NOT responsible, you really aren't. And it's OK to say to your parents "maybe you can talk about this when I'm not around", or "maybe you can talk about this with another adult". Of course there are things that do concern you, like where you will live. I assume your parents will realize that these are things they DO have to discuss with you. If they don't you can go to them and say you would like to talk about these things. And all the other things? I would suggest you try to let them go.
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Post by Gretchen on Nov 6, 2009 23:42:38 GMT -5
Vyckie,
I am so sorry about all of the things that you went through. I guess for me being quiverfull or not being quiverfull is not actually a salvation issue so it is something fundamentalist Christians can debate about but it has nothing to do with Heaven. I myself am a Christian. I was raised independent, fundamental Baptist. Funny though, the Baptist's were strict but they are not quiverfullers. In fact, I had never heard of such a thing until about this year. While the Bible definitely says children are a blessing it also gives us good sense to know our limits. God does give grace. You are right when you say not all men are leaders. In fact so many men are not leaders. I think it is sad that many religions have twisted the Bible to make us think we have to be miserable and we must do these things. There are only two things Christians must do - love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Of course, I believe in salvation. I believe Jesus died on the cross and he rose again the third day. I do not believe the Bible was written to harm us. And actually the Duggars have made it clear they are NOT quiverfull people because quiverfull people believe children are an obligation (I think you would know that more than I), but the Duggars feel they are a gift and not an obligation. I have a friend who is in fact quiverfull and I see her slipping into something. She doesn't seem to be handling it well. We have tried to talk to her (as we are both Christians) but she keeps saying, "I don't want to do this but I have to do it." No really you don't. Again having many children has nothing to do with your salvation. It is not a sin to not have children. It just isn't. I am so sorry you have lost your faith in the process, but we are here to always welcome you back with grace and mercy. My heart does go out to you and to your children because being miserable is truly no way to live this short life we have on this earth.
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Post by blessedinva777 on Jun 16, 2010 23:45:22 GMT -5
Thank you for this forum. I feel so sad reading your story Vickie...I just want to cry. There is so much sadness on this board. I am also feeling really really angry. I am a Christian, homeschooling yada yada...and what I hate is an ugly idea that's called LEGALISM that is not how Jesus described the real life of following Him. (John 3) You probably know that verse...how being filled with the spirit is like following the wind..well obviously in QF-that's NOT following the wind because your life is written in the stone of the MOTH sked. I do love God and my kids. I don't want them to be suffocated by what I deep down felt was a system of laws that killed the life of the holy spirit. For what it's worth- I'm really sorry ...for all of it...the ideas of people have perverted the freedom and light yoke of Jesus. The true life of Jesus can't be contained in the movements, and schedules...it's too radical, too loving, too forgiving. The religious despise it- honestly religious people hated Jesus more than anyone else. I really love the honesty here. It's refreshing!!! That's my 2 cents. Peace to you and your family. I hope it's ok for me to chill here a bit. April
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