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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 8, 2010 7:57:04 GMT -5
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Post by setfree on Apr 8, 2010 8:12:18 GMT -5
It sounds so perfect, so appealing, so attractive, so wholesome ... yet what is that seductive appeal, too? That draws you like a moth to a flame? I have a friend doing the moth thing atm, while a farm-dwelling, homeschooling IBLP family are setting the example of the perfect godly family to her and her family. (They tried to trick us into letting our kids go - they took two other kids from school, whose parents have no idea what IBLP is all about ... we googled it, and decided against letting our children go to the farm to play with all the lovely animals and the well-behaved children and have Character First training with them ....)
I have had this experience of families into this doctrine presenting themselves as the Godly Example for You To Learn From twice. They come over very loving at first but soon the instruction on the Right Way begins, and as long as you are the starry-eyed disciple, all is well. Scratch beneath the surface, think for yourself, ask questions or wonder out loud if there is an element of legalism to the perfection .... and things begin to unravel. Defend yourself or challenge the legalism directly - and oh dear you are toast - excommunication from the warmth of the circle of fellowship for you! Being wooed & cultivated so carefully with such lovingkindness only makes the eventual shunning and being cast out more of a threat to be avoided at all cost, and so an effective tool of pressure and manipulation. That was my experience, anyway.
Your writing is excellent, talk about a cliff-hanger! Is there a Part 3 yet?
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 8, 2010 10:30:51 GMT -5
Ugh ~ I can't figure out why this thread isn't at the top of the "Latest from the NLQ Blog" section ~ ?
Anyway ~ this story series is especially striking to me as Shelly so honestly and authentically relates how she was drawn into the Quiverfull lifestyle as she witnessed Cecelia's godly example.
Isn't that just how it happens? We see these women in church (or in my case, at the home school convention) ~ and they seem just so godly ~ so faithful ~ they really do radiate ~ and IT IS a "beautiful vision" of exactly the sort of dedicated life in Christ that we so long to have for ourselves and for our children.
Shelly wrote: "Most of all, I wanted to learn parenting skills from her." ~ this was me too ~ I was desperately seeking knowledge about how best to raise my children ~ what could I do as a mother to ensure that my "blessings" would love the Lord and serve Him wholeheartedly?
When I encountered mothers whose children appeared to be interested in the things of the Lord ~ I latched onto them ~ eager to know the key to their success. What books did they read? What programs were their kids involved with? What curriculum did they use?
Over time, the roles were reversed as I became the excellent wife and mother whom other women looked up to ~ my children were well-mannered and obedient ~ we seemed like such a lovely family. I was happy to share what I'd learned ~ passing out Above Rubies magazines, referring younger moms to Vision Forum and encouraging them to home school.
I really believed that the Lord had revealed to us His principles for a successfully, godly family ~ and since the majority of Christians had basically no clue about any of these principles ~ it was really impossible to not feel special ~ after all, there had to be some reason why God would show these things to us and not to all the other believers. So I kind of had it in my head that one way to not get prideful about all of this was to be willing to freely share what had been revealed to me with anyone who seemed remotely interested.
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Post by hopewell on Apr 8, 2010 11:16:10 GMT -5
Ugh!! Don't stop the story here!!! More! More! I totally agree--while I only briefly associated with home Church/homeschoolers, I LOVED the obedience! I read even the Pearls [which happily I found the switching too horrible] to try to get my son to behave. Happily I "grew up" and focused instead on learning about the traumas suffered by abused kids adopted at a later age.
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flah
New Member
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Post by flah on Apr 8, 2010 12:15:40 GMT -5
I'm picturing a great huge Monty Python foot hovering over this story!
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Post by francescateresa on Apr 8, 2010 12:34:20 GMT -5
I found this thread through the link at the bottom of the article, but this thread is not (as of 12:12 CST) showing up on the main index nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgiShelly's story is very important. We see that when one sets of on this journey towards the extreme fundamentalism...this person is not so unlike ourselves, as we could easily be...searching for faith and a place to belong. Sadly, I've seen this pattern of seduction to the 'beautiful vision of faith', albeit from a distance, repeated over and over since I was a kid, I'm 28. Lots and lots of old old friends of my parents went the route of born again hippies who slowly waded deeper and deeper into the whole mess. I remember Mom noting 'thy rod is thy comfort' inscribed on spanking spoons / paddles at the houses' of friends... this was her red flag to distance herself from this or that family. Other old family friends left the catholic church, hurt and lonely, and found initial comfort and fellowship in some very fundamentalist churches. Some of my own very dear friends from high school, after being raised in very fundamentalist (catholic and pentecostal) but dysfunctional families, went through some years of teenage misery and personal destruction only to come back to fundamentalism...I want to reach out to these old friends, but I know (ok, I'm pretty sure) they disdain me now. My heart goes out to those yearning for the relationship with god, the community, the friendship, and the fellowship that is initially so seductive.
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Post by dangermom on Apr 8, 2010 12:55:44 GMT -5
Please don't delay posting the next installment, I really want to know what happens. I'm not sure what else to say--I was listening to Brick in the Wall this morning and that plus this sets up some weird thoughts.
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Post by ShellyC on Apr 8, 2010 14:33:18 GMT -5
~ I latched onto them ~ eager to know the key to their success. What books did they read? What programs were their kids involved with? What curriculum did they use? I was happy to share what I'd learned ~ passing out Above Rubies magazines, referring younger moms to Vision Forum and encouraging them to home school. *shaking head yes* THIS! This was me, and I will admit, I am still drawn to these families when they pass me by....As crazy as it seems, especaily all I have been through, even as of lately... It is a seduction, if you will...It is like they are bait, that Satan uses to lure us into the trap!
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Post by margybargy on Apr 8, 2010 14:49:09 GMT -5
I'm picturing a great huge Monty Python foot hovering over this story! LOL. Me, too. Can't wait for the next installment.
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Post by sisof9 on Apr 8, 2010 17:04:40 GMT -5
I can't wait to read the next piece either!!! *sigh* This is me right noooow.... I see these families and EVEN with my cynicism and knowing that nothing is ever as good as it seems and knowing that there is often a lot of legalism I still am drawn to the prairie dress, natural living, long haired, secluded from "the world" lifestyle. Why is it some families are SO hurt and damaged - like i read here, and others who seemingly are the same way have healthy strong independent HAPPY kids?? But, in my heart of hearts I don't REALLY wanna be one of "those" families because unless it's sin I want my kids to wear, dress, watch, listen to whatever they want! Like... not letting my 6 year old play M games or my 10 year old pierce her eyebrow or anything.... but if my 14 wants to - probably or if my kid wants green hair - ooookay.... not my preference and I might make fun, but it's their choice. ;-) I guess what I really want is kids who love The Lord with all their heart soul and mind and who make wise choice... like there is a difference between dying your hair green for a football game and dying it green for a job interview. Anys... Thanks soooo much for sharing I am enjoying this - you write VERY well!
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Post by sisof9 on Apr 8, 2010 17:08:41 GMT -5
actually, as an add on Ben and I have talked about how we can dress our little ones the way that we want because we will be buying their clothes. so, if we like skirts/dresses on girlies they will wear them...until they can say otherwise and/or by their clothes. (Like I'll buy my kids pants, but I probably wouldn't buy something I found "immodest" and by the time they have the money to buy it they will probably be at an age where they can decipher more of that for themselves. *Like, as long as the kid is in our house... no bikinis, no boobs falling out, but thing skirts at knee level unless their is leggings, etc... if my 16 year old wants to dress that way I am not going to kick her out ) Actually it's funny - Ben says he will send his kid back to change if they are wearing polka dots with stripes because they don't match - to me that is such a MINOR thing and unless we are going somewhere nice or doing family pictures - let them wear what makes them happy, ya know?
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Post by usotsuki on Apr 8, 2010 18:18:02 GMT -5
I personally find the idea of living out in the middle of nowhere, raising a family apart from the world somewhat attractive (to myself) - but only because first I've been rubbed raw by the system as much as by my own family, and second I'm still "just a country boy, country boy at heart" </Ricky Skaggs> - it's got nothing to do with religion, or with idolization. Just I feel ticked at the world at large and don't want to deal with it any more than I have to.
If it's what you WANT to do, and you're not being pushed into it, and you don't FEEL like you're being pushed into it - go ahead, imho - I see nothing wrong with doing whatever you want to do. "An it harm none", as they say? xD
(Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting anyone do anything)
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Post by arietty on Apr 8, 2010 19:44:45 GMT -5
I've been thinking about why these families appealed to us while the many other families we all knew didn't. I think there is really a sell job element here in how the appealing families present as a complete package. They offer something quite distinctive that another family with three kids dressed normally and messing around in the back of the church doesn't. We don't want what we already have which is what all the boring families have, we want something that will fix or save or inspire us in some way.
I think a lot of people also feel culture-less, if you are just boring white protestant blah blah.. and for myself there was a definite appeal to the subculture. I believe this is why many christians get obsessed with Israel, they are looking for a culture to attach themselves to that has more depth than their own modern American middle class blahness. The QF subculture offers the same thing, as do all deep fundamentalist subcultures.
I know I loved to spend time with families like Shelley has described. I was always hoping they would rub off on my husband, that he would see and feel and be inspired by the Godliness of the family dad the way I was inspired by the Godliness of the mom. This of course never ever happened and my husband usually did or said something that made the other perfect family not want to pursue our friendship (like telling some sex joke or losing his temper or dominating the conversation for hours).
I wanted a good marriage and a good family and instead of looking at the normal families I knew I looked towards families that seemed special, I was looking for something markedly better and different than what I had because I was so deeply dissatisfied.
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Post by usotsuki on Apr 8, 2010 20:02:16 GMT -5
I think a lot of people also feel culture-less, if you are just boring white protestant blah blah.. and for myself there was a definite appeal to the subculture. I believe this is why many christians get obsessed with Israel, they are looking for a culture to attach themselves to that has more depth than their own modern American middle class blahness. The QF subculture offers the same thing, as do all deep fundamentalist subcultures. Quoted for truth. I feel sometimes like I live in a society where no one wants to do anything but eat and sit in front of the moron box. :/
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Post by rosa on Apr 9, 2010 9:28:07 GMT -5
Arietty, here's the thing that baffles me - not just about your story, but about all of these. Over time, you start to feel that something isn't working and you want to fix it, and you're unhappy, so you start looking around for solutions. Of course you can't undo having kids. But you can undo getting married. No matter what subculture you live in, you are still surrounded by the rest of the world and you know, somewhere, that it's an option. Yet over and over again I hear that either huge major-effort overhauls of the entire family seemed more likely to work than getting divorced, or that suicide seemed like a more acceptable option. I've read a ton of stories where women spent weeks or months contemplating death before divorce even occurred to them. How does that happen? To me, that's right up there with believing that being more submissive will make an angry, controlling, abusive man become sweet and gentle - something really manipulative has to happen to make that belief seem plausible.
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Post by usotsuki on Apr 9, 2010 10:26:41 GMT -5
It's very common in Christian beliefs to believe divorce just isn't allowed by God (and they'll probably cite chapter and verse at you... I'll spare you that, unless you WANT the chapter and verse).
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Post by rosa on Apr 9, 2010 11:02:00 GMT -5
I know that's a popular belief, but hardly any Christians follow it. There's something else going on than just the chapter and verse, because it's so different in the submissive wife fundamentalist churches than in even regular Evangelical churches.
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Post by journey on Apr 9, 2010 11:11:31 GMT -5
arietty....love what you share, as always. Yet over and over again I hear that either huge major-effort overhauls of the entire family seemed more likely to work than getting divorced, or that suicide seemed like a more acceptable option. I've read a ton of stories where women spent weeks or months contemplating death before divorce even occurred to them. rosa, I think you are on to something here... I know that the above was totally me. It never occured to me that divorce was actually an option. There was only death. I never really thought of suicide, because of my kids, but I had this very spiritualized (as in, I'm spiritually minded, so it's okay) excitement about death. One time when I went in for a surgery (that did almost kill me, actually) I remember being excited that I might die and go to heaven and it would all be over with. I didn't want to leave my kids...but I did want to leave my life. Another time, I remember my husband was in a very dangerous situation, and I had this thought, this very happy thought, that maybe he wouldn't make it out. Oh my goodness, I felt SO GUILTY for that fleeting thought! But I thought about it later, later when I'd finally woken up and realized that divorce was a viable option, and was amazed to discover that I'd thought that death, for either one of us, was more preferable than divorce! Divorce had been completely off the table for me, but death wasn't? ? Talk about crazy logic! And yet... it's there. Divorce is such a huge no-no... If you think about it, it makes some sense. After all, death is not something you can control. If I'd died in surgery or if my husband had died in the accident, it wasn't something either one of us did or chose. It would have happened to us, we would have been passive participants, so there was a way to think about it that made it seem like it was God's will. Whereas in divorce, it's not a passive thing at all. You are choosing it. You are actively and purposely choosing to legally declare your covenant null and void. You don't get any cool excuses that you had nothing to do with it (where no one ever ever has to know that you were desperate in your own home, that you were in a miserable marriage), and you don't get to chalk it up to God's sovereignty and how you just "trust God" through it...
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Post by journey on Apr 9, 2010 11:19:44 GMT -5
to continue...some more thoughts along these lines...
And the whole system is set up to habitually train the woman NOT TO CHOOSE. She is taught NOT to consider her life, on any level, as something she gets to make choices about. I didn't even get to choose whether or not I was going to be pregnant again. My husband would decide it, I would whimper out a protest that I wasn't ready yet, he would declare that God was the one telling him I needed to have another, and so I'd dutifully get pregnant. I didn't get to choose which road I'd turn down when I attended my church. I didn't get to choose whether or not I'd speak, in the adult classes, since my husband decided for me that I would not. I didn't get to choose to join a weekly activity unless my husband gave me permission.
So choosing to divorce? It's no wonder it never occured to me.
I remember when it did. It hit me like a blast of wind. Someone said, as we were visiting my husband, who had just been committed for psychiatric issues (which were finally diagnosed then), that, "You only have one life," and something along the lines of that it was my choice to decide how I spent the rest of it. It was like being blind and then being able to suddenly see. I saw. I realized what my obedience had cost me. Years of my life, that's what it cost me. I saw in front of me and realized, like a flood, that the last thing I was going to do was to spend my remaining years like I'd spent the ones earlier. It was my life. It was something I'd repeat to myself over and over again, for almost a year. My life. It would make me cry. I'd not realized that it was *my* life for so long.
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Post by xara on Apr 9, 2010 13:35:27 GMT -5
to continue...some more thoughts along these lines... And the whole system is set up to habitually train the woman NOT TO CHOOSE. She is taught NOT to consider her life, on any level, as something she gets to make choices about. I didn't even get to choose whether or not I was going to be pregnant again. My husband would decide it, I would whimper out a protest that I wasn't ready yet, he would declare that God was the one telling him I needed to have another, and so I'd dutifully get pregnant. I didn't get to choose which road I'd turn down when I attended my church. I didn't get to choose whether or not I'd speak, in the adult classes, since my husband decided for me that I would not. I didn't get to choose to join a weekly activity unless my husband gave me permission. So choosing to divorce? It's no wonder it never occured to me. I think this is at the heart of why the patriarchs rail against birth control and abortion. If a woman can CHOOSE whether or not to have a child, then she can CHOOSE other things in her life, including no longer being under the patriarchs' control. There is something very threatening to a man of this mindset about a woman CHOOSING how to live her life. Perhaps because they know that most women would not CHOOSE to live in this situation. In fact if they themselves were in that situation, they would rather be somewhere else. But he feels threatened because perhaps she would not choose to be with him. So the patriarch does his darndest to control her and limit the choices available to her. Most women who have access to birth control and recognize they have the power to choose how they will live their lives do CHOOSE to have at least one child at some point in their lives. Most do not have as many children though. This is why feminism is so threatening to this type of man. Feminism is about offering women choices about how to live our lives. And that scares a lot of people.
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Post by krwordgazer on Apr 9, 2010 14:47:54 GMT -5
This is very interesting. Do you think, then, that the reason some women do choose Quiverfull and patriarchy (sometimes to the puzzlement of their husbands, who at first are just going along with it to make their wives happy) is that on some level they don't want to be responsiible to make choices? That they're so afraid of messing up their lives that they'd rather give complete control of it to someone else? If so, the terrible irony is that patriarchalism, while taking away women's power of choice, also saddles them and not their husbands, with the responsibility if anything goes wrong. You weren't submissive enough; you weren't holy enough; you didn't have enough faith, and so on. With regards to the "beautiful vision" and the "magnet attraction" ShellyC describes so well-- it sounds to me a lot like what was called "codependent radar" in my adult-child-of-alcoholics therapy. The adult child of a dysfuctional home is trying to fix it, trying to prevent it from ever happening in their own marriage as it happened in their childhood. And without even realizing it, they are drawn to someone else who is trying to fix something in their own lives, someone who is just as codependent (only in a slightly different, complementary way) as they are. Added to that initial radar attraction, then, is the "love bombing" cultic groups do to recruit new members, and the seeker is hooked-- here, she thinks, is the person or group with the answers, the way to fix it, so I'll be happy forever and never suffer again. And they don't even realize they've walked right back into the same trap. That's what happened to me when I left my alcoholic home at the age of 18 and quickly joined a cultic college Christian ministry. And not all codependency is caused by alcoholism-- so something similar may have been involved for you, ShellyC.
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Post by arietty on Apr 9, 2010 19:03:50 GMT -5
Arietty, here's the thing that baffles me - not just about your story, but about all of these. Over time, you start to feel that something isn't working and you want to fix it, and you're unhappy, so you start looking around for solutions. Of course you can't undo having kids. But you can undo getting married. No matter what subculture you live in, you are still surrounded by the rest of the world and you know, somewhere, that it's an option. Yet over and over again I hear that either huge major-effort overhauls of the entire family seemed more likely to work than getting divorced, or that suicide seemed like a more acceptable option. I've read a ton of stories where women spent weeks or months contemplating death before divorce even occurred to them. How does that happen? To me, that's right up there with believing that being more submissive will make an angry, controlling, abusive man become sweet and gentle - something really manipulative has to happen to make that belief seem plausible. Journey described it well. Really it boils down to this: DIVORCE is failure, SIN and will destroy your children. Death, well that is just God's will. You don't argue with God's will. God's will is always preferable to terrible sin. Add to this years of being told that as a woman the world outside your home is NOT your realm.. and to your life becoming more and more isolated from that world.. and you have women who don't know a thing about the finances, where the money is, how the mortgage is paid and/or hundreds of other practical matters that form a huge and terrifying How-Will-I-Survive terror at the thought of existing outside of this relationship. I remember after my ex was gone I had to do a whole lot of things I'd never done before.. the small one that comes to mind is set up with another internet provider, figure out how to connect the computer, pay for the service.. and my ex called me and demanded to know WHO had done all that for me. He asked that about quite a few things I had done myself with no outside help (who would help me? I had no one.) I never answered though because I was very afraid of him and I was happy to let him believe that mysterious people were on my side and might come to my aid if he attacked me. But it did amaze me that it never entered his head I could do any of these things. It also amazed me how easy they were as it had taken him TWO YEARS to decide on and connect to an ISP when we were married (paying for the one he decided on for many months before figuring out how to use it). You are NO ONE in fundamentalist churches as a divorced woman. Other woman don't want their husband's speaking to you much less helping you with a practical matter. Even if you managed to not fail by being divorced, say if he divorced you AND was a homosexual or serial killer you STILL failed because you married him in the first place. IF he was so horrible that you are allowed to be divorced from him then you were obviously out of God's will when you married him in the first place. It's all one big failure, failure, failure, failure. Since everything is promised to be fantastic after you die who wouldn't prefer that?
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Post by Ex-Adriel on Apr 10, 2010 9:26:01 GMT -5
"You are NO ONE in fundamentalist churches as a divorced woman. Other woman don't want their husband's speaking to you much less helping you with a practical matter. "
It's the same for a widow and her children also.
You get the superficial "Oh what a tragedy" and a few casseroles for about a month, and then welcome to the land of the shunned. IF you're lucky, you've lined up a husband's relative or close friend who is conveniently a recent widower (or simply unwed because he's just that awful) to propose to you. Otherwise, don't look for help or companionship from anyone.
The mother/widow is shunned by ALL the women because she is obviously contagious or evil or 'in sin' (what DID she do for God to punish her by removing her mainstay and reason for living? Yes, someone actually asked my mother that, about a week after my father passed.)
She is shunned by the men because their wives are (slightly understandably) paranoid that she'll steal their men in her desperate hour of need (as she's a woman and obviously can't function on her own). These men are also unlikely to do much more than try to find a new spouse for her to make her 'safe' again.
And even more fun, even her kids get shunned by the entire social group. Try explaining that to a 3 year old.
It's very easy to talk big about the loving fellowship of Christ that exists in tightknit communities like this, but when the S#!T hits the fan, it's all over.
And honestly, I think it's split for the reasons.
Some people honestly probably do think the widow/divorcee is a spiritual leper and should be exiled for the health of the community. I don't think this is exceptionally loving or "Christian" behavior, but at least it's an honest fear.
The others, however, are KNOWINGLY getting rid of you because you're making them look bad. If some new prey (er, family...) walks in while you're bemoaning your divorce or mourning your husband, that new person isn't going to get that 'love bomb' of perfect tranquility and serenity in God's Purpose that everyone wants to present. In short - they're whitewashing their image by the quickest means possible - getting rid of the ugly/non-conforming bits. And that is so far from what a true loving community should be that it's in another galaxy.
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Post by peaceofchange on Apr 10, 2010 14:54:27 GMT -5
I wanted to add something to the following: Even if you managed to not fail by being divorced, say if he divorced you AND was a homosexual or serial killer you STILL failed because you married him in the first place. IF he was so horrible that you are allowed to be divorced from him then you were obviously out of God's will when you married him in the first place.In my fundamentalist circles it was also taught that we (wives) had the power to change our husbands with our meek and quiet spirits. So, if a divorced woman entered our sphere, there was also that failure to cast on her.
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Post by zoeygirl on Apr 11, 2010 11:18:57 GMT -5
Arietty, here's the thing that baffles me - not just about your story, but about all of these. Over time, you start to feel that something isn't working and you want to fix it, and you're unhappy, so you start looking around for solutions. Of course you can't undo having kids. But you can undo getting married. No matter what subculture you live in, you are still surrounded by the rest of the world and you know, somewhere, that it's an option. Yet over and over again I hear that either huge major-effort overhauls of the entire family seemed more likely to work than getting divorced, or that suicide seemed like a more acceptable option. I've read a ton of stories where women spent weeks or months contemplating death before divorce even occurred to them. How does that happen? To me, that's right up there with believing that being more submissive will make an angry, controlling, abusive man become sweet and gentle - something really manipulative has to happen to make that belief seem plausible. Wow rosa, your question is so . . . logical. I love it. Too bad logic doesn't fly in fundie circles. I agree with what peaceofchange says--I was married to an abuser and was told that my meek and quiet spirit would change him. All it did was make him worse. But there's one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, and that is the never-flagging belief that God wants to heal all marriages. Even if you are married to a serial killer, God wants to heal him and heal your marriage. Because the institution of marriage is more important than the two people in it. In my circles, a divorced woman was not looked down on for marrying him in the first place, because that would be admitting that there was a possibility that someone could actually marry the wrong person. I was raised with the unspoken belief that the one sin you could not commit was marrying the wrong person. We humans can commit every other sin in the world, but once you say those vows then that was absolutely the person that God had for you and it wasn't a mistake, and God wanted that marriage to be healed. Even if he's a serial killer. Debi Pearl was once asked, "What if I find out my husband is a child molester?" Her answer was to make sure he spends his 10-20 years in prison, because that's the right thing to do, but after he pays his debt to society, then the wife should be the first one at the prison door ready to welcome him back with open arms. That right there is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. This is one reason I stayed in an abusive marriage for so long--I could not possibly have married the wrong person, because that's the one sin we can't commit. That's the one thing that we can't get wrong, because God supposedly brings that person into your life as a "gift" to you, and because wedding vows are somehow magical. Logic be damned!
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