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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on May 7, 2010 15:17:42 GMT -5
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Post by arietty on May 7, 2010 19:12:49 GMT -5
Shelly this was so illuminating for me! This paragraph:
What is so interesting is that you did have friends who called you and wanted to go shopping, invited you to scrapbooking etc.. but you pulled away from them in favor of the sisterhood you sought with Cecelia. I see this theme in my life long past, and thanks to some posts on this forum (I think KR described it at one point) I can now explain it to myself. That desire for an intense, deeply fulfilling/dependent relationship which drives people to turn away from what was healthy friendships, relationships, churches and seek out what is an unhealthy (some would say codepedant) model. I SO longed for that intense fellowship.. and I remember that even then a little voice in my mind would sometimes point out that this is how people get into cults. I valued the zealous, deep and meaningful and dismissed the superficial, never mind that the superficial were all real people with real lives that could have offered real friendships not based on how well I mirrored them. It is interesting how in QF and homeschooling/homechurching circles you get this living in each others pockets lifestyle with a few families. I always envied the families that had this kind of relationship but looking back now I see that actually it is kind of weird and very non-inclusive. And yes I remember some spectacular blow outs with these families where something went wrong and it was like the worst church split in the world.
Today I have normal, functional friendships with no dependence element. That need has completely left me thanks to better life circumstances, growing up, being able to define it and name it as unhealthy. I don't want that kind of intense relationship with a church either, where it becomes your whole life.. I remember how we used to think that churches that didn't take over your whole life were "dead". "People just show up on Sunday, that is NOT church". Well yeah.. and they probably have normal, functional friendships and also exist in the world as healthy human beings rather than being only inward focused on one group.
So. Thanks for your post. It certainly captures that need many of us had.
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Post by freefromtyranny on May 7, 2010 21:59:29 GMT -5
Excellent insight!! BTDT. I've committed to not living that way anymore.
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Post by lg61820 on May 8, 2010 8:51:48 GMT -5
I am waiting anxiously for the next installment of this series. You are doing a wonderful job of building suspense. I can't wait to find out what happens next!
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Post by km on May 8, 2010 13:31:41 GMT -5
That family's paranoia about doctors makes me wonder if they were child abusers, to be honest. It sounds reminiscent of Michael Pearl's writings.
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Post by jadehawk on May 8, 2010 15:58:25 GMT -5
this is an excellent series, very fascinating how one can be drawn into the "fairy-tale"!
anyway, I need to comment on this:
this just makes me mad. Not only because this is the precise attitude that kills the children of Christian Scientists when taken to the extreme, but also because it shows a very strong "able bodied" privilege. For example, my boyfriend lacks upper canines because his family didn't have any health insurance when he was a kid, and when his teeth started growing in, there wasn't any room for them to grow in properly, so they grew in sideways, as little stumps. There was no way to "push" the canines to grow in as they were supposed to. What he'd have needed were the sort of braces that stretch your entire jaw, not just straighten a tooth.
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Post by Sierra on May 8, 2010 16:51:52 GMT -5
this is an excellent series, very fascinating how one can be drawn into the "fairy-tale"! anyway, I need to comment on this: this just makes me mad. Not only because this is the precise attitude that kills the children of Christian Scientists when taken to the extreme, but also because it shows a very strong "able bodied" privilege. For example, my boyfriend lacks upper canines because his family didn't have any health insurance when he was a kid, and when his teeth started growing in, there wasn't any room for them to grow in properly, so they grew in sideways, as little stumps. There was no way to "push" the canines to grow in as they were supposed to. What he'd have needed were the sort of braces that stretch your entire jaw, not just straighten a tooth. This had me fuming, too - not at you, Shelly, but at the people who think this shit works. I was 'blessed' with 4 teeth too many, and then my wisdom teeth came in. My canines did just what jadehawk's boyfriend's did - and those stumps incised my lips so I had constant sores in my mouth. No amount of selective 'pushing' was going to get those teeth to go anywhere. They had no room! I also didn't get braces until I was 20 and left the church, because Jesus was coming back, so a two-year investment just wasn't worth it. The braces are off now, and I still don't know how to smile.
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Post by staceyjw on May 8, 2010 17:04:56 GMT -5
Shelly can beat out any famous writer as far as suspense goes! Every single installment makes me soooo impatient to read the next one. If I had the will power, I would not read any more until its all done, so I can go back and read it straight through! Alas, I can't, it's just too interesting to wait.
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Post by krwordgazer on May 8, 2010 20:06:07 GMT -5
Wow, yes. I remember how, little by little, one at a time, all this stuff got added to what being a Christian meant. It started out just being about believing in Christ, going to church, and not doing things that could hurt yourself or someone else.
And then-- if I was going to really follow Christ, I should set my sights to becoming a mother and a homemaker.
And then-- I needed be against abortion.
And then-- I needed to believe that public school was bad and that what I'd been taught in school was lies, particularly if it had anything to do with American history.
And then-- I needed to support certain political candidates, and not others.
And then-- good Christians didn't date, but prayed for God to send them their mate.
And then-- I needed to stop listening to "secular" music and listen only to Christian music.
And then-- Books and movies I liked were wrong and demonic.
And then-- If I really loved God, I would do everything I could to raise enough money to go to a particular Christian conference. If I didn't want to go, it meant I didn't want God's best for my life.
And on, and on, and on. No music with a rock beat-- even if it was Christian music. No movies that weren't G-rated. No G-rated movies either, if they had any mystical elements. No jewelry with any non-Christian symbolism or significance (if you bought something you thought was pretty and it turned out that it could be seen as a mandala or a Native American totem animal or something, get rid of it!) No this. No that.
I remember being astonished at how worldly I'd been being without even knowing it. What would I do without my new church, my Titus 2 friends, and my new Christian leaders to show me the right way to live? They'd use some Scripture or other to show why their position was right-- but though they said we were to be "Bereans" and study it for ourselves, we were expected to come to the same conclusions, using the same Scriptures that we were given. If we didn't, there was something wrong with our motives, that was causing us to twist the word of God.
It was very gradual and very insidious. I remember my mother, in exasperation, saying to me, "You've become so rigid!" (This because she'd bought me a shirt with purple unicorns on it, that a year earlier I would have loved, but I'd turned against unicorns along with everything else I used to love.) And all I could do was wonder how I never noticed before, how totally worldly my mom was.
Sigh. I must have been absolutely impossible to be around. Your story brings it all back, Shelly. Wow.
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Post by mickee on May 10, 2010 10:16:14 GMT -5
I am so so very interested in hearing the rest of this story!
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Post by hopewell on May 10, 2010 10:56:50 GMT -5
I'm glad you recognized the insanity about troll dolls and cabbage patch kids! Believing that would be a real stretch. Still, I am totally fascinated by how people get into the lifestyle this way--it's the true realization of friendship evangelism, just not evangelism to anything but legalism. I look forward to the next installment.
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Post by amyrose on May 11, 2010 13:01:28 GMT -5
The bit about kids needing doctor visits immediately followed by the questions "was there some sin..." brought back my horrible experiences with this world.
As many here know, I worked at a Christian school dominated by a lot of crazy theology for six years. Raised with the combination of mainline Protestant churches and Catholic schools, it was a foreign world to me. But it was also insidious and the ideas crept into my life and the necessity to find agreement and follow those rules to keep my job took me over in many ways.
And the whole "you're being punished for some sin in your life" theology was a huge part of it. I taught 7 or 8 different classes there with as many as 150 students a semester. I also directed plays with no money and coached speech team. I worked 14 hour days most of the time and was always exhausted not only by the work but by never being good enough.
So I got sick a lot. Sinus infections. Pneumonia twice. Bronchitis. And I have bad seasonal allergies. I was constantly told that all of this would go away if "got rid of the sin in my life".
On top of that, I was single. And that I was constantly told was due to some sin that I needed to "get right with God".
I never knew whether to believe this or not. I was inclined not to, but there were plenty of Cecilia's in this world. People who seemed to have everything together and they were usually the ones who were saying that. So maybe they were right.
To me, telling people that the normal difficulties of life--sickness, financial struggles, death of loved ones...to tell people that all of those things are not normal but are punishment from God.....
That's just pure evil.
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Post by humbletigger on May 13, 2010 13:47:02 GMT -5
There's a book on my bookshelf, The Gifted Adult.
It tells of common characteristics that gifted people share, and one of them is intensity.
Maybe that explains why so many exceptional people do get involved in co-dependent or cult relationships- we are looking for something more-more personal, more spiritual, more intense.
This is something to be aware of in our selves and guard against its misuse on our part or manipulation on the part of others. Like everything in life, it's both an asset (one can be passionate about art, spirituality, righting injustice, etc.) and a liability (it can cloud our judgment so that we expect more from others than they can comfortably give, or get us involved in cults/codependent relationships).
I think about the time I get life figured out all the way I'll be too old to do much about it! ;D
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Post by km on May 14, 2010 8:25:06 GMT -5
I keep thinking that I was in many ways susceptible to this kind of dynamic as well--when I was a young teenager. The eldest daughter of the Perfect Family that I've described here was extremely charismatic and persuasive. She was two years older than me, and she was gorgeous and articulate and *very* dedicated to the lifestyle. She was a type A personality, a natural leader, but she would talk endlessly of her efforts to become more submissive. She always had this pull for me. Just being around her made me want to be more like her.
I've always felt very sad about what happened to her. Growing up, she wanted to be a medical doctor. She was naturally very bright, and she got high scores on her SATs. She could have attended a competitive university and gone on to medical school. She would have excelled at this, as she did with everything she worked toward. But her parents didn't want her to go to college, and in molding herself to what they wanted for her life, she would speak enthusiastically of training to become a wife and mother.
She's married now, and a mother. Her husband is a conservative Christian but not along the same lines as her father was. She wears pants most of the time now, and cuts her hair. She has even taken some college classes and worked toward going to nursing school. But she speaks wistfully of the opportunities that she's lost. In her 30's now, she has said that she wishes she had gone to college when she was younger but fears that it's too late now that she's a mother.
I'm relieved to say that she's no longer quivering. She has children, but she has embraced family planning and wants to limit their number. But her drive and talent... She's the type of person who becomes very successful at whatever she tries to do. I do feel sad when I think about what she wanted to accomplish and the limitations that her parents placed on her life.
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autumn
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by autumn on May 15, 2010 19:50:29 GMT -5
hey KM it might not be too late for your friend, I know an OB who started medical school at 40, didn't get into actual practice until 48!!
She went to the University of Vermont straight through and did her residency at Fletcher Allen!
Now I return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Post by ShellyC on May 28, 2010 14:16:58 GMT -5
Shelly this was so illuminating for me! This paragraph: YES, I identify with this too lately! I wish I could say that I am no longer co-dependant on wanting/having intense friendships...but I am just not their yet. I thought I was, but last year, my family did end up smack in the middle of a cult!!! It was many, many intense friendships which lured us in... with a whole bunch of rules to follow in order to stay tight with them all. It was in a commune setting. We just left and cut ties with them all this past Janruary. I plan to write about it this year. I am not sure which expirence was worst at this point.
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Post by nikita on May 28, 2010 14:26:08 GMT -5
It is hard, isn't it? The intimacy and friendships (albeit only if you toe the line) are so intense in fringe religious groups and it's really a siren's call for some of us. Regular churches just don't have that same feel and it's hard to adjust. They just posted an article on the SGM Survivors site on that very subject: how to find a church once you leave SGM and one of the biggest problems is adjusting your attitude and needs to being okay with not having that level of instant intimacy you get at SGM when you try to find another church to go to. I was not in SGM but I like to visit Reformed places because it resonates and so many of my old friends wound up in Reform churches it is depressing to see. So it interests me. Anyway, instant intimacy is not just an SGM thing, it's a thing that happens in most fringe and cult-like movements. If it is what you are used to it can be hard to deal with 'normal' churches and groups. I hope you continue your series soon. I want to know what happened next.
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Post by kisekileia on May 28, 2010 21:35:47 GMT -5
Nikita, what does SGM stand for?
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Post by nikita on May 28, 2010 21:49:22 GMT -5
Oh, sorry. It's Sovereign Grace Ministries. It's a very highly structured Reform church of what they consider to be a nondenominational type although they are clearly now their own denomination. They are very much like a cult and do the whole nine yards of Reform theology, patriarchy, home schooling, etc. I don't believe they have any connection to QF, just reform theology and patriarchy. They like to 'plant' churches all over the US and tend to think they are the only church worth going to etc. I ran into their survivors blogs when I was trying to better understand what the hell happened to some of my old friends who had wound up in Reform theology, some of whom were now QF and most of whom were home schooling and living in the 'wilderness' in the West, especially Washington, Idaho, and Alaska. That's when I found out that Reform theology, which was just a blip on the radar when I was in my old cult days, had made huge inroads into other denominations and seminaries and was taking over churches congregation by congregation. SGM is one of those kinds of churches. I didn't mean to go so far afield into my own rant. It's just that I have been upset by this particular turn of events. Predestination alone sets my teeth on edge. Ah well...
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