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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jan 15, 2010 9:02:16 GMT -5
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Post by rosa on Jan 15, 2010 12:15:32 GMT -5
Hooray! I am so glad you're writing here, Ruth!
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Post by journey on Jan 15, 2010 12:54:30 GMT -5
ME TOO!
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Post by hopewell on Jan 15, 2010 13:59:50 GMT -5
I'm really looking forward to reading more by you. I enjoy your blog and I'm glad you are now here, too.
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Post by grandmalou on Jan 15, 2010 14:26:50 GMT -5
I'm really looking forward to reading more by you. I enjoy your blog and I'm glad you are now here, too. Yes, me too! Can hardly wait for your next installment! There are so many gifted writers on this forum, and it is great y'all want to share with others.
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Post by susan on Jan 15, 2010 16:03:13 GMT -5
Oh, I'm excited that you're getting started on this Ruth. It's so funny, I thought from the title you were going to be writing about how the Patriarchy Movement expects women to keep their homes beautiful and organized -- But it was really about how the "basis" of all the organization is not having any ideas or goals of your own. First, your mom laid aside her goals for her life to submit to your dad ... then she laid aside any control that SHE might exercise over her body/family-size ... So, this "cleared out" all the "unnecessary clutter" of thinking that SHE mattered. Basically, "preparing our surroundings" means "getting ourselves out of the way," huh
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Post by razingruth on Jan 15, 2010 16:38:15 GMT -5
Susan, I chose this operational definition of Gothard's for two reasons. Neither of which was yours but you bring up such good insights that I'll adopt yours as a third reason. My first was that writing this first installment was really difficult for me. I didn't know where to start. I had to organize my thoughts about my life. It was hard to get the clutter of events to flow in a logical manner. Then I realized that I needed to start from the start. The second was recognizing that the character trait is a hypocrisy. The QF lifestyle is anything but uncomplicated. It's messy! To claim that you want your followers to grab onto organization in their spiritual lives while leaving everything up to basically chance (which is what you do when you "give it to God" or "purpose to leave it to God") is irony at it's peak. That feeds right into what you said. You were just a step ahead of me.
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Post by susan on Jan 15, 2010 17:22:04 GMT -5
Cool! I look forward to your next installment!
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Post by arietty on Jan 15, 2010 19:11:19 GMT -5
Ruth I am very much looking forward to your series! Thank you so much for writing it. Gothard never took off here like in the US. The original Gothard teachers who came out to organize seminars were told they needed to drop the uniform suits because they "looked like Mormons".. I don't think they were able to do any actual cultural adaption and their impact has been rather minimal as I understand it. Perhaps I am behind the times and they are going great guns but that was my experience. Their website no longer loads.
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Post by arietty on Jan 15, 2010 19:14:06 GMT -5
When I was still lusting after BIGGER BETTER PURER teachings I was interested in Gothard. I ended up finding a whole bunch of his advanced training booklets in a thrift store--someone was obviously quite over it, lol.
I thought they were very weird and I didn't quite get what they were about.
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Post by journey on Jan 15, 2010 20:18:27 GMT -5
But it was really about how the "basis" of all the organization is not having any ideas or goals of your own.
First, your mom laid aside her goals for her life to submit to your dad ... then she laid aside any control that SHE might exercise over her body/family-size ...
So, this "cleared out" all the "unnecessary clutter" of thinking that SHE mattered.
Basically, "preparing our surroundings" means "getting ourselves out of the way," huh. Susan, This was incredibly insightful and so powerfully true. The biggest crime a "Biblical woman" can have is thoughts of her own, actions of her own, beliefs of her own ( with the noted exception of all thoughts, actions and beliefs that agree with the patriarchal teachings).
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Post by susan on Jan 16, 2010 14:31:28 GMT -5
journey, I am realizing how much this patriarchy-"theme" is interwoven throughout our whole culture.
mommybunny1, who commented on your "God Card"-thread really got me thinking about this. She was raised secular or moderate-Jewish -- and SHE has found many parallels between women's experiences in the QF/P movement, and her own experiences.
Ditto with me. Being raised in Christian fundamentalism seems a lot like P/QF-"lite." And sometimes it actually gets pretty heavy.
And, actually, I think this "Woman, get out of the way"-attitude is even present among some feminists -- i.e. those who think mothers shouldn't feel like they're so "indispensable" in custody/visitation cases where a nursing toddler or young child is not yet ready to be separated from Mommy overnight.
Sometimes "Father's rights" advocates seem really anti-woman in their attitudes that everything should be painstakingly-egalitarian, to the point where they ignore the biological differences between mother and fathers.
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Post by krwordgazer on Jan 17, 2010 18:32:32 GMT -5
Wow, interesting beginning, Razingruth! Looking forward to the next installment!
It sure does seem like "die to self" is taught so much more to Christian women than to Christian men in many circles. It's a useful teaching for a person who wants power, when it is twisted to mean "give in to my will."
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Post by runawaybride on Jan 20, 2010 10:45:25 GMT -5
the phrase " die to self" can still send me into an anxiety attack.
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