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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jan 25, 2010 8:12:22 GMT -5
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mara
New Member
Posts: 27
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Post by mara on Jan 25, 2010 12:18:14 GMT -5
I've only recently become aware of Gothard's Character Sketches. Someone told me that Gothard blames Nabel's death on Abigail's sin of 'independent thought'. Since hearing that I've had not use for the man. No Bible teacher that I ever heard of blames Abigail for such a thing, nor does the Bible. It takes a twisted mind to come up with such a teaching. And such a twisted mind is not qualified to write on 'Character'.
I believe that children are a blessing from God. I also had two boys first and wished for a girl for my third. But my boys were two years apart and I did get my girl. Truth be known, I wanted a girl first from the beginning. Didn't work that way. But I don't see how any of this has to do with Discernment or Judgment or having a boy somehow makes a man righteous.
More twisted logic from a twisted man following a twisted system.
Thanks RazingRuth for sharing. It is in so doing that the light of truth can shine on the darkness of the Patriarchy and Quiverfull movement.
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Post by susan on Jan 25, 2010 14:04:41 GMT -5
Mara, I remember being shocked about the same thing about Gothard's teaching. My mom and I attended his "Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts" the summer that I was 14. And it was so, so very long and boring. I tuned out a lot of it -- but I do remember him talking about a young woman who at around the age of 19, didn't want to accompany her parents when they decided to move to a retirement community. And her parents didn't feel she was ready to live on her own yet -- but she went ahead and moved into her own apartment. And when he checked back later, he learned that she'd lost her virginity. And my mom bought all those character sketch books, so I remember reading about Abigail and how she had supposedly "sinned" by taking matters into her own hands to save her own life, and the lives of all the people who depended on her. Ruth, I don't know if you noticed, but after your last entry I wrote a long post and later deleted it, because after I thought about it, I felt like I was getting your mom's experiences mixed up with my experiences with my own family. But, having read this new post, I am just really sorry about how your grandparents seemingly withdrew their love and support, just because your mother wasn't living the way they wanted her to live. Though it is good that they supported her in her desire to get an education and pursue a career, it really seems like they did indeed have their own agenda for your mom's life. I'm also very sad about how your dad asserted his dominance over your mom. But I'm saddest of all over how your mom must have ended up feeling so isolated, with her only friends being the ones who supported patriarchy, and her own parents becoming increasingly-distant. It makes me realize that, whatever my own children (both girls) decide to do with their own lives, I want to be there for them and be there for my grandkids. I don't ever want them to feel like I'm withdrawing from them just because I disagree with their choices. But, anyhow, it sounds like your mom finally did get her girl (you)!
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Post by jemand on Jan 25, 2010 14:52:28 GMT -5
I'm actually not sure I see her parents becoming more distant, rather her husband shoving them away and ensuring she doesn't see or speak to them much... Her parents expressed reasonable concerns with respect to her daughter's health, and in response, got completely unreasonable talk of them being agents of the devil and must stay away from his new little family, etc.
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Post by krwordgazer on Jan 25, 2010 15:56:25 GMT -5
Oooh, this is triggering me a little bit. I remember in the cult I was in, everyone thought they were appointed by God to correct any fault, real or perceived, in every other member of the group. In fact, if you saw any mistake or attitude and didn't correct it (usually harshly), you yourself were giving "tacit consent" to their "sin." Brrrr.
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Post by susan on Jan 25, 2010 15:58:38 GMT -5
I'm actually not sure I see her parents becoming more distant, rather her husband shoving them away and ensuring she doesn't see or speak to them much... Her parents expressed reasonable concerns with respect to her daughter's health, and in response, got completely unreasonable talk of them being agents of the devil and must stay away from his new little family, etc. That's possible. But as for me, I simply couldn't imagine telling my son-in-law what he should do with his private reproductive parts. And I would feel that my husband had stepped way over the line, and should apologize, if he ever said such a thing to our son-in-law. But maybe it's a generational-thing. It seems like older generations do indeed feel like they're entitled to intrusively speak their minds to their adult children and children-in-law. I'm trying not to mix this up with my own situation, but it's been so saddening to me, that I've had to establish a great deal of distance with my own relatives, including my own mother. All because of the fact that, whatever we are doing that she disagrees with, she just has to keep making an issue of it and trying to wear us down. So, even though she only lives 30 minutes away, we now hardly ever see her. I keep wondering why she can't just relax and enjoy being Grandma now, and accept that I (at age 45) really am an adult capable of raising my own children. I'd be glad to listen to her concerns, suggestions, and ideas -- if she could just say what she had to say and then let it go. And, maybe Ruth's grandparents really did just share their opinions one time and then let it go ... As I've said, I'm trying not to get Ruth's mother's story mixed up with my own.
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Post by jemand on Jan 25, 2010 16:17:58 GMT -5
susan, I note that razing ruth said her mother cried when she learned she was pregnant so soon again after her last two... I wonder if her parents could sense this/knew this... when someone's "private reproductive parts" are causing such harm to someone you desperately love, I dunno, telling them to maybe consider doing something else with them doesn't seem so out of line for me.
I can see how parents can be super meddling, and play emotional blackmail with their children, but honestly, I haven't seen any indication of this yet in razing ruth's story. Maybe it's there and I haven't seen it, maybe it was subtext, I don't know. But I do know abusers try to drive wedges between their victims and alternative support structures, and I have a hard time believing that razing ruth's father didn't amplify any concern her grandparents had way beyond reason and used it as a reason to cut them off...
But I should maybe wait until ruth tells more of her story.
ETA, I read again and the crying was written close to the mention of the difficulty of telling her mother again-- so maybe you are right. Then again, sometimes we understand the craziness of our actions more when we're considering how to explain what we're doing to someone who loves us... so I'm not sure whether she was crying because her mother was being unrealistic, or if thinking about telling her mother made her realize maybe this wasn't what she wanted and helped her realize that it was a situation worth crying over.
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Post by susan on Jan 25, 2010 16:20:16 GMT -5
I'm actually not sure I see her parents becoming more distant, rather her husband shoving them away and ensuring she doesn't see or speak to them much... Her parents expressed reasonable concerns with respect to her daughter's health, and in response, got completely unreasonable talk of them being agents of the devil and must stay away from his new little family, etc. I just went back and re-read Ruth's post, and didn't see anyplace where he said the things you said he did, i.e. him calling them agents of the devil and telling them to stay away. From what Ruth said, he just told them he wasn't willing to get a vasectomy (not that this was any of their business anyway), and would pray about getting a nanny. To me, an expression of "reasonable concern" would be to offer to help out with the care of my grandchildren and with the housework, so my daughter could get more rest. And to prepare some nutritious meals for them, and just do everything within my power to make my daughter's life easier. Again, I just wouldn't see it as "reasonable" to be telling my daughter or son-in-law what they should do with their fertility. I'll be talking with my girls about fertility, and various options they have, as they go through puberty. I just see this as a very personal choice (since my husband's and my fertility is no one's business but our own, that's how I think I should treat it when my own daughters are grown). But I realize that concerned grandparents are human like everyone else, and we all put our foot in our mouth sometimes. So I suppose if I got very worried about some choice that one of my adult daughters and her husband were making, I might catch myself stepping over the line and saying something intrusive. But if I did so I'd apologize.
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Post by jemand on Jan 25, 2010 16:24:37 GMT -5
I just edited my last post... and I wonder if maybe we both are starting to interpose our own experiences onto the story, me, from the stories I've seen of fundamentalists nearly always dismissing and ignoring any expression of concern by "unbelievers" as being of the devil (and read the recent comments on razing ruth's own blog, from her family members showing that such stuff does go on in her family, maybe it didn't start then, but...) and your experience with smothering adult children.
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Post by susan on Jan 25, 2010 16:39:17 GMT -5
I think we just cross-posted, Jemand. I didn't see this post of your 'til I made my last one. susan, I note that razing ruth said her mother cried when she learned she was pregnant so soon again after her last two... I wonder if her parents could sense this/knew this... when someone's "private reproductive parts" are causing such harm to someone you desperately love, I dunno, telling them to maybe consider doing something else with them doesn't seem so out of line for me. Oh, I'd certainly be concerned if one of my daughters were having babies so close together. For me, just breastfeeding without any contraception, has spaced my 2 girls almost 5 years apart in age. I can't imagine getting pregnant while still exclusively breastfeeding a brand new baby! I didn't even get my periods back until 21 months postpartum with my older dd, and 30 months postpartum with my younger dd. So I'm hoping my girls' bodies will be a lot like mine, because it is so wonderful to let your body restore itself between babies, and also to give each child a few years of babying before a new baby comes on the scene. As I said, I'd be very worried -- but, because of my own mom's intrusiveness, I'm already preparing myself that my own girls will probably do some things way different than I did. My own mom was upset about the long-term breastfeeding I chose to do (she always bottle fed, and incidentally got pregnant with my brother when I was only 7 months old) -- and my own girls may surprise me by deciding not to breastfeed at all. Seeing how my mom sees everything that I do differently as a slap-in-the-face to her, I want to be very careful to allow my children the room to find themselves as parents, and to make their own choices. I'm sure that I'll have opinions and concerns -- but I just want so badly to NOT drive a wedge between us like my own mom has done. I'm sure I should wait, too! I do agree with you that abusers drive wedges and try to isolate their victims. I think there's a strong possibility that my own experiences are clouding my view of Ruth's grandparents.
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Post by susan on Jan 25, 2010 16:40:43 GMT -5
I just edited my last post... and I wonder if maybe we both are starting to interpose our own experiences onto the story, me, from the stories I've seen of fundamentalists nearly always dismissing and ignoring any expression of concern by "unbelievers" as being of the devil (and read the recent comments on razing ruth's own blog, from her family members showing that such stuff does go on in her family, maybe it didn't start then, but...) and your experience with smothering adult children. Yes, I agree.
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Post by anatheist on Jan 25, 2010 20:01:01 GMT -5
This installment was very triggering for me.
I have mixed feelings about a person expressing that they "desperately" want a child of a certain gender. What happens if they never get that precious girl? Do the preceding children pick up that they weren't the most wanted ones? Are the preceding children looked upon as a bit of a disappointment?
My parents desperately wanted a boy. They had child after child after child. Disappointment after disappointment. I'll never forgive them for that.
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Post by rosa on Jan 25, 2010 21:15:06 GMT -5
It's totally possible to get pregnant while nursing, especially if you have a rich, reliable diet (like almost all Americans.) You only use about 30% more calories than usual - and if you simultaneously get less active (which is pretty common) your body has a lot of extra resources for fertility. My boyfriend's sister-in-law got pregnant with her second before she ever even had a period, while nursing her first.
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Post by susan on Jan 25, 2010 21:17:37 GMT -5
This installment was very triggering for me. I have mixed feelings about a person expressing that they "desperately" want a child of a certain gender. What happens if they never get that precious girl? Do the preceding children pick up that they weren't the most wanted ones? Are the preceding children looked upon as a bit of a disappointment? My parents desperately wanted a boy. They had child after child after child. Disappointment after disappointment. I'll never forgive them for that. I'm so sorry you went through that! Even though I never felt guilty about secretly hoping for a girl in both my pregnancies (I got a girl both times) -- I was never willing to voice it out-loud, because I felt upset by even the possibility that if my precious baby was a boy, he might someday hear some insensitive person remark that, as they recalled, his mama had really been hoping for a girl. I instinctively knew that, whatever I was secretly hoping for, once my actual baby was born I would fall in love with that baby and would no longer be wishing for something else -- So to me it felt wrong to voice my wishes out loud. And I actually wouldn't be voicing then on here if I hadn't received my wishes both times. With Ruth's story, I'm not actually sure if her husband was upset with her for hoping for a certain sex -- or if he was upset with her for hoping for a girl. Like, maybe he would've felt okay about her hoping for a boy each time?
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Post by susan on Jan 25, 2010 21:34:53 GMT -5
It's totally possible to get pregnant while nursing, especially if you have a rich, reliable diet (like almost all Americans.) You only use about 30% more calories than usual - and if you simultaneously get less active (which is pretty common) your body has a lot of extra resources for fertility. Oh, yes! I realize that my extremely long infertile time isn't exactly the norm. One of my friends even resumes her menstrual period one month after giving birth, while exclusively breastfeeding. Yes, one of my friends had the same thing happen when her first baby was only 9 months old and was still almost exclusively breastfeeding. I just meant that since reproductive issues are often a case of "like mother like daughter," I'm hoping my girls might be blessed with a long phase of lactational ammenorhea like I was -- but, then, they may make different choices from me anyway, so of course I want them to be educated about their options so they can choose for themselves. They may not feel as comfortable as I did letting my body decide when it was ready to get pregnant. But even if they use other methods of child spacing, I think going for around 2 years without a cycle, after each baby, is also very healthy in terms of reducing the risk of certain cancers. But, it's not really something a woman has control over ... Reproductive education is already starting with my oldest, who is almost 10 and has recently started puberty. I believe in talking with them when they start showing an interest, and in the case of my girls, they seem to be asking the questions fairly early. I feel like now is the time to speak my mind about these issues -- and then when they are married adult women, I will just be a loving Mom and Grandma, and rest assured that they don't need me telling them to get themselves or their hubbies "snipped."
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Post by ambrosia on Jan 25, 2010 21:52:49 GMT -5
My boyfriend's sister-in-law got pregnant with her second before she ever even had a period, while nursing her first. ;D ;D ;D And another one here. Not quite "Irish twins" - a year & 10 days apart. Also using BC. My son is a very determined guy! I had the very devil of a time convincing the doctor that "Yes I really really want a tubal ligation after this one is born."
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Post by susan on Jan 25, 2010 23:11:40 GMT -5
I must admit that I used to be very jealous of my oh-so-fertile friends, because I'd always dreamed of having a bunch of little "stair-steps" really close in age (I vaguely remember some book, I think it was called "The Stairstep Sisters," about a family of 5 girls who were so poor but always had such jolly fun). ...
Anyhow, it was really hard waiting and waiting, and waiting some more, to finally get pregnant with my second, shortly after my oldest turned 4.
But I now appreciate the longer spacing. Although, I am sure there are things I'd appreciate about having children very close in age, too.
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Post by madame on Jan 28, 2010 10:31:28 GMT -5
This is so cruel, on so many levels! Why does it all have to revolve around man knowing better and woman submitting? Yuck! And why would having a boy be "better for her" than having a girl?
Ambrosia, I got pregnant with my daughter while I was breastfeeding and using bc. And I wished for a daughter. After two sons, it's very normal!
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