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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 1, 2010 21:16:06 GMT -5
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Mar 1, 2010 21:26:13 GMT -5
Ruth, how has this impacted your ability to make it through college? We at least used A Beka, so we got something, but I am hopelessly behind in math (I'm a girl!) and science (glorified Sunday school lessons), with those being my lowest grades in college. Frustrating because I like them.
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Post by km on Mar 1, 2010 21:44:12 GMT -5
"Q: Had Bill Gothard spent a lot of time observing youth, prior to creating the homeschooling program? A: Yes. However, the youth he observed were admittedly troubled inner-city, heathen youth with multiple problems and, often, criminal records."
Wait, are you saying that he referred to them as "heathens"? (If so, it might clarify to put them in scare quotes?) Ugh... I hadn't realized that, though I know how racist he was. The whole business of rock music containing a "voodoo beat" with "evil, demonic" influences that "go back to Africa" tipped me off pretty quickly.
By the way, I'm curious... I've read about this homeschooling curriculum elsewhere, and I'm wondering how things were for you when you went to college? (You're a university student, right?) Did you find yourself very far behind and have to do a lot of extra work to catch up? The Wisdom Booklets sound like they represent the worst tendencies of anti-intellectualism in the fundamentalist movement. Whatever one may think of homeschooling (I'm not getting into that.), it's just wrong for parents to let that kind of curriculum comprise their children's "education."
I remember hearing about all the literary and scientific figures who had been "homeschooled" throughout US history (in Christian homeschooling propaganda) and thinking, "Well, you know, *Thoreau* was kind of a self-motivated genius with access to a large library. None of these Great People was produced by ATI or Christian Light or Abeka or Bob Jones University." I always thought that was a really dishonest defense of homeschooling, as the QF people who used these curriculums were not--by a long shot--teaching the kind of free thinking that one needs to become, y'know, a Great Intellectual. Or even a Great Theologian, for that matter. Intellectual work requires freedom of thought, and there's none of that among Gothard and his ilk.
If the legend is true (that Gothard became a great student through memorizing Scripture), I have to believe that it's because rote memorization was a dominant pedagogical practice during his day. For the record? The things I learned through memorization in school were the things I forgot most quickly.
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Post by calluna on Mar 2, 2010 9:59:59 GMT -5
Yeah, that always bugged me a bit that Bill Gothard wasn't married and had children and had all these "principles" that were "unchanging"
A wise lady told me she won't listen to another "mother" for advice, unless she has at least three children and one of them is a boy. ;D
So why would I listen to a man that has no personal experience *at all* in the field of families?
Sadly I did listen to him for a while. Until I had children...and more than two, LOL!
Seems to me he would of done better to encourage people who were single.
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Post by km on Mar 2, 2010 10:34:40 GMT -5
Seems to me he would of done better to encourage people who were single. Erm, or maybe better not to have had a public career at all. Seems like just a shitty megalomaniac all the way around, you know?
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Post by duplessis3 on Mar 2, 2010 10:36:22 GMT -5
There are schools now using ATI. THe kids all sit at desks by themselves and do the workbooks with someone wandering to make sure they stay on task. When we homeschooled, we used Ambleside, which actually has stood up to the test of going to school.
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Post by km on Mar 2, 2010 10:39:44 GMT -5
There are schools now using ATI. THe kids all sit at desks by themselves and do the workbooks with someone wandering to make sure they stay on task. When we homeschooled, we used Ambleside, which actually has stood up to the test of going to school. Right, also Bill Gothard's "cities of character" program is a stealth Gothardite program that is infiltrating public schools. It's especially big in Arkansas, as Mike Huckabee has long been a Gothard-supporter. The most important "character" trait in the program is, unsurprising, "obedience to authority." The program removes the Scripture and overt dominionist references, but it's still the same old dogmatism--only slightly revamped for use in secular schools.
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em
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Post by em on Mar 2, 2010 10:48:35 GMT -5
So why would I listen to a man that has no personal experience *at all* in the field of families? This is what I never understood either. Here's this guy, touting himself as *the* authority for how to live a perfect, godly life. Part of said life includes having a wife and plenty of kids. Um ... then isn't Mr. Gothard married? Why does he have no children? Why does he actively discourage higher education when he himself has a masters degree? The man is clearly a hypocrit. I don't know why people listen to him as though he is the best authority about this crap.
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Post by margybargy on Mar 2, 2010 10:55:40 GMT -5
Ruth, how has this impacted your ability to make it through college? We at least used A Beka, so we got something, but I am hopelessly behind in math (I'm a girl!) and science (glorified Sunday school lessons), with those being my lowest grades in college. Frustrating because I like them. Gasp! I take exception to the bolded part, young lady.
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aimai
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Post by aimai on Mar 2, 2010 11:44:21 GMT -5
Didn't anyone ever point out that this:
This direct correlation between his grades and consistency in memorizing and meditating on Scripture continued through college and graduate school.” –
Makes sense if you are going to a *biblical school* but probably isn't obviously true if you are going to a school where Scripture isn't the entire course of study?
aimai
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Post by margybargy on Mar 2, 2010 11:49:19 GMT -5
So why would I listen to a man that has no personal experience *at all* in the field of families? This is what I never understood either. Here's this guy, touting himself as *the* authority for how to live a perfect, godly life. Part of said life includes having a wife and plenty of kids. Um ... then isn't Mr. Gothard married? Why does he have no children? Why does he actively discourage higher education when he himself has a masters degree? The man is clearly a hypocrit. I don't know why people listen to him as though he is the best authority about this crap. Yes. My Mom used to say, "self praise is no praise". The man sounds like a great self-promoter. Other than that he's completely unqualified in his field. And yet people buy into it. Lots of people. Lots of smart people. I'm getting a dent where I keep smacking my forehead. I guess it's because I'm missing the point of this type of "education". It's meant to brainwash, not enlighten. It's hard for me to accept that this is what some people want for their kids. It just very, very sad. Such a waste of potential.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 2, 2010 12:27:08 GMT -5
Ruth, how has this impacted your ability to make it through college? We at least used A Beka, so we got something, but I am hopelessly behind in math (I'm a girl!) and science (glorified Sunday school lessons), with those being my lowest grades in college. Frustrating because I like them. Gasp! I take exception to the bolded part, young lady. Margy, I did at first too, but when I re-read it, I think she is being sarcastic. That was the stance her family took, so they did not teach her, or let her excell in math because she was a girl. So sad - I had the same experience. I developed a math phobia pretty early on due to some bad teachers and an abusive older sister who was assigned to 'coach me" in math. Later in life, I met a mathematician who was also a musician as well as a really cool person. He explained to me that math (at least higher math, not necessarily arithmetic) was a beautiful philosophy which made perfect sense - just like a perfectly composed Mozart Sonata. Someone else even told me that music is just math formulas set in time. Don't even pretend to understand that idea, but I like it I think if I hadn't thought I was stupid (my family's conditioning) I would have really loved math. Well, hey, I guess it's never too late, right?
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Post by hopewell on Mar 2, 2010 13:51:27 GMT -5
duplessis3-- good to know since my kids have done a lot of Ambleside [doing things a bit differently for high school]
Ruth: Did you do anything other than the Wisdom booklets--did your Mom assign books to read or even very Christian science stuff? Anything? I too am curious. I know some homeschoolers use the last year or so to cram for either a GED or ACT/SAT. I am very interested in this part of your story!
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Post by dangermom on Mar 2, 2010 14:02:23 GMT -5
I don't know if very many women over 30 really escaped that math thing. I know that by the time I was 8 or so, I 'knew' that girls were just bad at math, which is something I picked up at school--my parents are both very pro-math. I can remember my dad trying to teach me neat math stuff, and I was often resistant because I already knew I couldn't do it. I also had several teachers who were quite bad at teaching math (and the worst one was a man) in my early years--I finally figured it out when I was about 20 and realized that I was enjoying my trig class.
One of my minor goals in homeschooling my girls is to foster a happy math atmosphere and avoid math-phobia. I was quite thrilled the other day when my 9yo said that math is becoming one of her favorite subjects.
I've never heard of ATI, though I'm somewhat familiar with the other big conservative Christian curricula. It sounds pretty terrible. I went and looked at their website to see if I'd seen any of it before. Really, there is so much excellent stuff out there--there is no excuse for this kind of dreck, no matter what. I'm so sorry, Ruth, that you were subjected to it, but happily you can now make up lost time and overcome that.
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Post by bananacat on Mar 2, 2010 15:48:00 GMT -5
I've always wondered what kind of science is taught with this type of curriculum, but I guess I'm afraid to ask because I already know the answer. I imagine it's not big on evolution, archeology, or geology. Do they teach young Earth creationism?
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Post by gardenkatz on Mar 2, 2010 21:35:54 GMT -5
There are schools now using ATI. THe kids all sit at desks by themselves and do the workbooks with someone wandering to make sure they stay on task. When we homeschooled, we used Ambleside, which actually has stood up to the test of going to school. Right, also Bill Gothard's "cities of character" program is a stealth Gothardite program that is infiltrating public schools. It's especially big in Arkansas, as Mike Huckabee has long been a Gothard-supporter. The most important "character" trait in the program is, unsurprising, "obedience to authority." The program removes the Scripture and overt dominionist references, but it's still the same old dogmatism--only slightly revamped for use in secular schools. Ruth I'm so, so sorry you had to go thru Gothard full throttle. I hope you are able to help your siblings escape! Ugghhh...I live in Arkansas! I spent my time undoing the awful Gothard lite "character" program. Huckabee is in thick with Gothard and the Duggars..and it is my mission in life to make sure the Huckster and his minion Jimblob have no hope of a shot at national office. Lynne
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 2, 2010 22:12:23 GMT -5
ugh. Ruth, I am so sorry. I went to IBLP seminars every few years, and my parents talked about doing ATI once, and got some samples that they made us do, but we never actually switched to ATI. We used a hodge-podge of various curricula...
In high school, I basically stopped doing my own schoolwork, to teach the younger ones. I read my lessons, but never actually did the schoolwork. And no one held me accountable.
I was fine in some subjects, but others...I was hopelessly behind. :S
I can't believe that someone would design a curriculum that is so...I don't know, I have no words. ugh. just ugh.
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Post by margybargy on Mar 3, 2010 9:58:36 GMT -5
Gasp! I take exception to the bolded part, young lady. Margy, I did at first too, but when I re-read it, I think she is being sarcastic. That was the stance her family took, so they did not teach her, or let her excell in math because she was a girl. So sad - I had the same experience. I developed a math phobia pretty early on due to some bad teachers and an abusive older sister who was assigned to 'coach me" in math. Later in life, I met a mathematician who was also a musician as well as a really cool person. He explained to me that math (at least higher math, not necessarily arithmetic) was a beautiful philosophy which made perfect sense - just like a perfectly composed Mozart Sonata. Someone else even told me that music is just math formulas set in time. Don't even pretend to understand that idea, but I like it I think if I hadn't thought I was stupid (my family's conditioning) I would have really loved math. Well, hey, I guess it's never too late, right? Oooooh. Sarcasm, yeah. Either way there was no offense taken. Hope it didn't come across that way. Thanks for the clarification, musicmom. It's just annoying to me that this "math phobia" seems to be instilled into girls. It closes off so much opportunity. I guess that's the point, eh? I'm not upset with the phobics. I'm upset with the instillers of the phobia. I've heard the same thing about math, too. True mathmeticians really seem to have that attitude about it. I've always applied it to practical purposes. So I guess I see it like a tool rather than a beautiful song.
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Post by WanderingOne on Mar 3, 2010 10:27:47 GMT -5
I've always wondered what kind of science is taught with this type of curriculum, but I guess I'm afraid to ask because I already know the answer. I imagine it's not big on evolution, archeology, or geology. Do they teach young Earth creationism? Yes. There's a sample wisdom booklet online here: ati.iblp.org/ati/about/curriculum/wisdombooklets/The curriculum we mostly used (Bob Jones), was big on young earth creationism as well--I came to college convinced that the earth is 6000 years old and that evolution is false.
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Post by airlie808 on Mar 3, 2010 11:51:40 GMT -5
I went to a Bill Gothard seminar several years before I got married because I had college friends who raved about it. I got some things out of it, but I found the whole "system" a bit heavy-handed and couldn't figure out where he got some of the things in said were in the Bible. The same year I went to the advanced one, and I remember them pushing the curriculum very hard. I sat down and looked at it, and remember thinking that it was very lightweight. I had gone to a very good high school and top-notch colleges, and I couldn't imagine using such materials and being truly ready for college despite how it was marketed as being "advanced." Thankfully that was it for me on Bill Gothard. I never went back or bought any of his materials.
It seems to attract primarily legalistic, authoritarian families, which I find disturbing. I'm also mystified by the role that the father has even over "children" in their mid-20's and older who should be making their own decisions and making their own way IMHO.
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Post by km on Mar 3, 2010 12:30:47 GMT -5
It seems to attract primarily legalistic, authoritarian families, which I find disturbing. I'm also mystified by the role that the father has even over "children" in their mid-20's and older who should be making their own decisions and making their own way IMHO. I agree, and I have to say... I do think that the organization can sometimes continue to hold a lot of sway over adult children as well. I knew one girl who was educated in ATIA who went on to go to an unaccredited law school related to Bill Gothard--and later devote her legal services to the organization and to HSLDA.
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