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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Mar 3, 2010 11:51:04 GMT -5
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Post by km on Mar 3, 2010 12:46:38 GMT -5
Wow... I'm just...totally speechless. I mean, I knew it was bad, but I didn't know a lot of the details. Ugh... *That's* what they told you was the scientific method???
Reading this bit just makes me furious:
"History. I’d been given a neo-conservative, white-washed, Christian evangelical version of history. My version mentioned nothing of the founding father’s deism or the Treaty of Tripoli. I didn’t know that slavery was as bad or as rampant as it was. I was taught that the civil war was a Godly war over state’s rights. I wasn’t taught about Martin Luther King. I knew about the Crusades, but I didn’t know about the Black Plague or pre-Biblical peoples. Ancient cultures were briefly discussed and the caveat was always tossed in about how they couldn’t have existed in the times ’secularists’ claimed they did because there were no men on earth further back than about six thousand years ago. Dinosaurs? They walked with humans before the fall."
I mean, I knew about Dominionist revisionist histories, but mostly I was aware of that from having heard them declare that the founding fathers were "Christians." Hello? Thomas Jefferson wrote a translation of the Gospels that omitted all of the miracles and stories of the divine. But I didn't realize quite how bad it got. Didn't know *how bad* slavery had been? Or who Martin Luther King, Jr. was? That's just criminal, IMO. I don't think parents should even be allowed to do that to their children, and I'm tempted to say that willfully withholding adequate education from one's children is itself a form of abuse. What scares me even more is that this version of "history" is being perpetuated at Patrick Henry University--and that these people are getting more and more jobs in government. I do *not* want anyone who never learned about Martin Luther King, Jr. to ever sit on, say, a civil rights commission in this country.
I come from several generations of dedicated public educators, and this shit makes me absolutely furious. It's amazing that you were able to catch up and do the work it took to get ahead on your own that way. What an amazing testament to your strength and determination. I don't know if I'd have been able to maintain the discipline to keep going through school. It sounds like your mom also gets some credit for supplementing some of the materials that were so woefully lacking. I just can't believe there are people who get credit for a high school education after doing *only* the Wisdom Booklet. Anyway, good for you for keeping up with your education! That sounds like it was incredibly hard.
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Post by km on Mar 3, 2010 13:00:07 GMT -5
The other thing I'm wondering... Did you know many people of color who were involved in ATIA/the Gothard movement? I knew a couple, and seeing how blatantly racist these versions of history were... That must have been exceptionally alienating for children of color. Not to mention that many of their parents and extended families would have remembered some of the actual history, particularly that around the Civil Rights and Black Power movements.
When children are taught that the dominant history is just filled with "lies," it's easy to understand why more aren't trying to expand their education. If I were raised that way past the age of 18, I can imagine feeling fearful about "secular" education. Again, I really am impressed that you managed to do it anyway--that took a lot of courage!
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Post by hopewell on Mar 3, 2010 13:52:52 GMT -5
Did you know many people of color who were involved in ATIA/the Gothard movement
I have met one African-American family who is in ATI. We met in a homeschool group. They were a little bit liberal in that the 16 year old daughter was in homeschool swimming class and got to wear a "regular" bathing suit--a tankini that was a bit large and had and extra cross-strap sewed to the back to hold it on better. No one seeing her would have given her a second look. However, they were a "mixed" race family and the mother identified closely with her white Grandmother who had raised her. One of the sons was [imagine this!] marrying a white BOB JONES U grad and moving to New England. She claimed to have never been subject to overt-racisim at any ATI function she'd ever attended. Several of her kids have "served"at different ATI locations. When I mentioned being very familiar with one center she "corrected" herself and changed the child's location to a different center! Her husband had "left the family" but she had never sought a divorce!
Ruth: I'm glad your Mother gave you such a special time in your day. That's a good reminder for all of us Moms! Also, remember there are COUNTLESS "graduates" of poor-performing urban and rural public schools who find themselves in the same academic boat you are in. While there are OUTSTANDING public schools, most today would rate "mediocre" at best. I know from my kids' schools, from family who are teachers, a superintendent and a pscyhologist. Lack of academic rigor is not sole fault of the ultra-right wing homeschoolers! lol...
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Post by km on Mar 3, 2010 14:13:39 GMT -5
While there are OUTSTANDING public schools, most today would rate "mediocre" at best. I know from my kids' schools, from family who are teachers, a superintendent and a pscyhologist. Lack of academic rigor is not sole fault of the ultra-right wing homeschoolers! lol... Of course, but I don't think anyone is demonizing all homeschools--or saying that all public schools are perfect. I don't understand why the ATI woman you knew switched the name of the ATI center where she'd been? What was her motivation?
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Post by km on Mar 3, 2010 14:15:20 GMT -5
as an aside: I read that Bob Jones University did away with the rule against mixed race dating and marriages a year or two ago. Bob Jones, Jr. trying to stay with the times or something.
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Post by redheadedskeptic on Mar 3, 2010 15:44:27 GMT -5
Ruth, I feel you! Even though I went to public school 8-12th grades, my parents managed to undo much of what I learned, if not directly, then through things like Adventures in Odyssey. Anyone else here listen to those? Remember the ones that involved school? Particularly one where Lawrence's mom gets all upset over a history textbook. So you learn that even if you do go to public school, DON'T TRUST IT! And I learned to completely tune out in science, because every time they mentioned "a million years", I would go on a thought process on how they were wrong, but I was right. On the ACT, I scored a 33 in English, but a 20 in science, which is JUST above the line where you have to take remedial courses. Thanks to public school for the 20, but probably would have scored higher if I hadn't been busy feeling superior in every lecture.
Last semester, I failed my calculus and physics classes. Sigh. I really LIKE math and science now that I no longer have on those fundamentalist glasses, but I completely lack the tools to complete them in a satisfactory manner to derive a career out of them. It makes me angry. Very angry. But I am working on it.
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Post by margybargy on Mar 3, 2010 16:27:18 GMT -5
Ruth: I'm glad your Mother gave you such a special time in your day. That's a good reminder for all of us Moms! Also, remember there are COUNTLESS "graduates" of poor-performing urban and rural public schools who find themselves in the same academic boat you are in. While there are OUTSTANDING public schools, most today would rate "mediocre" at best. I know from my kids' schools, from family who are teachers, a superintendent and a pscyhologist. Lack of academic rigor is not sole fault of the ultra-right wing homeschoolers! lol... I don't disagree with you about public schools. But there's a huge difference between a mediocre education and this ATI stuff. It sounds like ATI actually closes off avenues of inquiry. I think that's a lot worse in degree and intent than just providing a half-assed education. It sounds like some of what's being taught (history and science) is deliberately misleading. Any contradictory information is disregarded, even if reliable. For me, that puts it in a whole other category of wrong.
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Post by lexibadger on Mar 3, 2010 17:46:09 GMT -5
Redheadedskeptic - Oh man, I remember Adventures In Odyssey. They broadcast it in the afternoon on the local Christian radio station, just in time for kids coming home from school. I remember listening to a few "back in the day" lol, but either I've since blocked it out or I never really paid attention. Sounds like that's a good thing! I was in the public school system all the way through to grade 12, but my education in some areas during high school was really hurting because that's when I was into the whole fundie thing with my mom. Heh, like for my Ancient Civilizations class essay I wrote about how Noah's Ark and the Flood really happened and that there was proof. Eesh. And, yeah, with the fundie mindset it makes it real hard to pass science class. Looking back, I feel cheated... but I imagine it's far more frustrating having to go back and fix everything after a lifetime of Bill Gothard's "curriculum". Ruth, reading about those happy moments with your mom made me smile. I'm glad you were lucky enough to have that, despite all the other horrible things.
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autumn
Junior Member
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Post by autumn on Mar 3, 2010 21:58:53 GMT -5
This post made my heart hurt. I majored in History my first time through college and always remembered Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States, it talks about all those things that folks like Bill Gothard and Bob Jones probably wouldn't want you to know.
I'm sorry I didn't underline the title of the book but this site and my browser (firefox w/NoSctript) don't get along that well so I don't have access to the tags.
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Post by km on Mar 3, 2010 23:25:29 GMT -5
This post made my heart hurt. I majored in History my first time through college and always remembered Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States, it talks about all those things that folks like Bill Gothard and Bob Jones probably wouldn't want you to know. Y'know... I was gonna mention this book as well. It might be a good antidote to all the false garbage you were taught in ATIA.
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syfr
New Member
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Post by syfr on Mar 4, 2010 11:10:35 GMT -5
as an aside: I read that Bob Jones University did away with the rule against mixed race dating and marriages a year or two ago. Bob Jones, Jr. trying to stay with the times or something. According to the radio this morning, it was 10 years ago today!
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Post by km on Mar 4, 2010 12:08:30 GMT -5
as an aside: I read that Bob Jones University did away with the rule against mixed race dating and marriages a year or two ago. Bob Jones, Jr. trying to stay with the times or something. According to the radio this morning, it was 10 years ago today! You're right. Sorry, I'd mistaken that for something that did happen in 2008... Apparently: "In November 2008, the University declared itself "profoundly sorry" for having allowed "institutional policies to remain in place that were racially hurtful."[102]" ETA: What a bloody euphemism... "racially hurtful." pffft...
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Post by bananacat on Mar 4, 2010 14:23:59 GMT -5
Aren't there standards that homeschoolers have to meet? I guess I thought it was a little more regulated than it really is. It's just amazing that we would let kids in our society fall through the cracks like this.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 4, 2010 14:59:21 GMT -5
I don't understand why the ATI woman you knew switched the name of the ATI center where she'd been? What was her motivation?
I'm not sure either! But it was so bizarre the way she did it that I remember it clearly!
BANACAT: it depends on the state. Most are pretty hands-off with homeschoolers.
I work for a college and teach "Bibliographic Instruction" [how to do research] and it never ceases to amaze me how barely literate many of our students are and some have graduated from "the best" high schools in the area. I could give countless examples. The only difference between the worst of these students and the graduates of the Wisdom Booklets are a different set of cultural references. Same is true at our nearby Community College. The amount of remediation it takes today to produce a "college graduate" can be staggering.
Too often people seem to equate the excellence of "their" school or of top-rank suburban schools with "all" public schools. That simply isn't true. I've watched in horror as my own son, a difficult student at best, has been "shoved thru" learning next to nothing. Add that to my college students and the picture is not very heartening!
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Post by km on Mar 4, 2010 15:23:43 GMT -5
Aren't there standards that homeschoolers have to meet? I guess I thought it was a little more regulated than it really is. It's just amazing that we would let kids in our society fall through the cracks like this. Completely agree. In the United States, my understanding is that homeschooling is largely state-regulated. Is that right? Anyway, people have to take certain standardized tests, but it's easy to teach to a passable level on a standardized test (and still be letting kids fall through the cracks like this).
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Post by km on Mar 4, 2010 15:42:39 GMT -5
Too often people seem to equate the excellence of "their" school or of top-rank suburban schools with "all" public schools. That simply isn't true. I've watched in horror as my own son, a difficult student at best, has been "shoved thru" learning next to nothing. Add that to my college students and the picture is not very heartening! By contrast, I too often find that people generalize based on the inadequate public schools near them. I did not go to a top suburban school. I went to a top urban school, which was a top school *because* the county I lived in enforced a diversity policy that distributed equal resources to schools in both poor and wealthy neighborhoods. There is far more school equality in some parts of the South as a result of our history of enforced desegregation than there often is in many other parts of this country. Whatever the quality if one's local schools, I am beginning to find your persistent trashing of public schools (in this thread and many others) a little tiresome, hopewell. I am sorry for the derail. This is all I'll say on this. But, yeah, I know your view about the state of US public schools. You've been very vocal about it for a long time now. Every example of bad education in a QF setting does not need to be turned around. Nor do we all need to be reminded that public schools are "just as bad" every time. And it may just be an ideological difference with me? But, hell, I'd prefer subpar public humanism to Christian Reconstructionism any day. My opinion.
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Post by km on Mar 4, 2010 15:58:18 GMT -5
Argh... I said it was all I'd say, but... Hopewell, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to jump on you and put you on the defensive. It's just... I am deeply invested in the public school system, and I probably feel just as hostile toward homeschooling as you do to the public schools. That said, I know that this is a fraught issue in this community, and I try not to come in here making generalizing, offensive comments about how bad (I often believe that) homeschools are. I think schooling is a matter of individual choice, and parents have to weigh resources and situations in order to decide what's best for their own children. It would mean a lot to me if all of us could maintain respect for these kinds of choices (without resorting to demonizing rhetoric about one position or the other).
Further, I really believe that this is a highly localized issue. I am against the extreme inequalities that persist throughout schools in the United States, and I would like for everyone to be able to have had the top notch public schooling that I had. But I'm still committed to the system, such as it is, and to making it better. I would never judge anyone for choosing to homeschool, and I can even think of possible reasons that I might choose homeschooling (i.e. lack of adequate accommodation for disability or persistent bullying).
Anyway, I would like to make a request... In the same vein that others have requested that this place not turn into a referendum on the abortion issue. I would really, really appreciate it if I didn't see such damning, generalizing comments about the school system around here. I don't want to keep feeling defensive about schools, and I don't want to keep putting others on the defensive over the issue either.
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Post by km on Mar 4, 2010 16:37:59 GMT -5
p.s. And, Hopewell, I'm sorry for what your son has had to deal with in his school. That's not right, and shouldn't happen to anyone in public school or homeschool or any other kind of school.
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basil
New Member
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Post by basil on Mar 7, 2010 3:11:42 GMT -5
Hey, I'm not sure if I've ever posted here before (if so it was a LONG time ago!) but I've been reading NLQ for about a year now. I just wanted to say this post really struck a chord with me, as someone who was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home and homeschooled up until high school.
The reason I went to high school is because I was, rather literally, losing it. I was self-injuring, wandering around outside in the middle of the night (at 11/12 years of age), and was mildly suicidal. I don't know HOW much of that is from the brutal, fundamentalist way of raising children... and I wasn't even raised in some of these extreme scenarios... I just remember living in a super strict home where ANY opposition was considered wrong.
Anyway, I landed in therapy (Christian therapy only!) and my therapist made the suggestion that I go to public school. It became my sanctuary and I excelled there, problems at home were never addressed and I don't think I stopped being self-abusive until I moved out and went to college.
I'm really torn on how I feel about homeschooling, because I feel like it can be a great supplemental education, and perhaps even a good way to get kids interested in learning in a variety of ways... but I don't think it should really be continued past 6th or 7th grade. Like Ruth, I had an excellent education in math and English, but again, I knew next to nothing about history and science. I was fortunate to pick up on these things in high school, but I resent my family for lying to me and deliberately misleading me and for the indoctrination that happened.
My teachers had always been impressed with my work, my high test scores, my respect & ability to learn... but I constantly felt socially excluded or like an outsider. I made lots of friends, I adapted, but it was a long, painful process of relinquishing my former notions about people and learning how to work in society.
So you could say I had a superior education to most of my peers, but at what cost? My psychological well-being? I'd rather have had to take 20 years extra education than be so horridly traumatized again.
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Post by margybargy on Mar 7, 2010 11:41:00 GMT -5
Oh, basil. I came from what I'd call a chaotic home. It wasn't fundie, and I wouldn't say it was abusive. But there was a lot of fighting, tension, disharmony. I just never knew what I was going to come home to. Anyway, I found public school to be a refuge as well. A lot of my friends had very peaceful homes, happy families. It showed me another way of life. It was probably one of the best things that ever happened to me. km and hopewell, homeschooling seems to be one of the hot-button topics. I have a nephew with special needs. My SIL began homeschooling him because at school he just wasn't being educated. She was tremendously successful with him. She homeschooled her other kids and got mixed results. So far only one's attempted college (or any sort of education beyond high school) and he's struggling. Hopefully, he'll hang in there. It's not like you put kids through an assembly line and they pop out a certain way. It's not a matter of choosing the right formula. Homeschooling might not be appropriate for a given kid or family for a variety of reasons. Same with public school, same with private school. A given type of education might not be appropriate for a given kid at a given time. I could see myself pulling my child out of school if she's being bullied or falls in with a bad crowd. Or if she's got a really bad teacher. IMO, it's not either/or. I think you've just got to check in periodically. You've got to ask yourself some questions. Is my kid happy? Is my kid learning to the best of his/her ability? That's my plan anyway. I've committed myself to not taking things for granted. I'm willing to tinker, if necessary. Ha! Listen to me giving advice! My dd is only three. Fortunately, she's loving pre-school. It's the best thing we could've done for her. She's happy when she gets there every morning and happy when we pick her up in the afternoon. Plus, it blows my mind what she's learning! She's learning stuff I didn't learn until first grade! And my parents were pretty proactive education-wise. Honestly, I think our society (the US) is pretty good when it comes to providing remedial education. Yay, community college. It's too bad it comes to that for all those kids who thought they were getting a good public school education, but weren't. But at least it's there for people who need/want it. That is not the case in most of the world. Well, this is way longer than I intended. I guess my point is that all kids of education are a mixed bag. Parents can't get too hung up on methodology. It's got to be more about results. Mistakes will be made. Setback will happen. It's inevitable. It's more about how you (parent and child) bounce back.
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