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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 5, 2010 19:08:55 GMT -5
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Post by philosophia on Apr 5, 2010 20:12:08 GMT -5
What a beautiful post. Yes, my daughters became mini-helpers when they were 10 and 12, which was when I was expecting my 5th child.
Even Mother wears a mask, because she has to convince her husband the home is running efficiently throughout the day, when that just isn't how a house full of children operates.
My girls hated weeding the garden. They would pretend they were confederate soldiers uprooting the yankees. (Our group was big into that Civil War stuff) As the children got older X would take them at about age 7 to remodel houses. One daughter as a teen told me that she would not be surprised if as an adult she would shirk all manual labor. All he ever does is work. She reached her point of saturation and absolutely hated having to go with him. She didn't seem to mind doing housework because I did not REQUIRE it of her. She did that voluntarily, and with a great spirit. The other children learned the lesson he was imparting. Hard work brings rewards. He pays them handsomely. But only when they help HIM.
But if one of the girls stayed home and helped me out he shrugged that off. "She should have come to help me if she wanted a reward."
Ugh.
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Post by kiery on Apr 5, 2010 20:34:48 GMT -5
(((hugs SF)))
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Post by krwordgazer on Apr 5, 2010 23:04:39 GMT -5
That is so sad, Starfury. You ought to have been out playing undercover spies, not just pretending it to yourself while you drudged away! It breaks my heart, all the stuff piled on you that you didn't even understand.
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Post by setfree on Apr 5, 2010 23:06:16 GMT -5
What a heavy, heavy load for the eldest daughter. How burnt out she must get even before she starts having babies of her own. I can't imagine what it must be like to be the eldest of a quiverful of 8 or more, and then in your early 20's go straight to producing your own quiverful ("the homebirth mothers say it's a sin not to start having babies right away" is what one QF daughter told me .... her mothr married at 16, so did her grandmother, and she thought she was quite the strong-minded rebel to hold off until she was 18).
I can't imagine that this is the life expected of these daughters.
I have three children. They make a LOT of mess. Sometimes we have crazy times when i am so over the mess that I am barking orders like a drill sergeant, "pick this up! pick that up!" - I feel bad enough about that, i do worry we are pressuring them too much, my dh is worried about it too ... i just hate the mess, really struggling with this - i can't stand the mess and how taken for granted i feel, like i just have to be this cleaning/tidying machine while they just play and entertain and feed themselves - but then, when I'm yelling at them to do this that and the other just to get some semblence of order back, i do feel guilty that i am shaming and pressuring them.
At least in our house my dh does as much if not more domestic chores as me. If I'm this psycho and pressured just with this small quiver, and an equal -opportunity dh to boot, i can only imagine the pressure on older girls in full on QF households.
thank your for sharing your story starfury, i look forward to part 2.
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Post by krwordgazer on Apr 5, 2010 23:14:14 GMT -5
I have three children. They make a LOT of mess. Sometimes we have crazy times when i am so over the mess that I am barking orders like a drill sergeant, "pick this up! pick that up!" - I feel bad enough about that, i do worry we are pressuring them too much, my dh is worried about it too ... i just hate the mess, really struggling with this - i can't stand the mess and how taken for granted i feel, like i just have to be this cleaning/tidying machine while they just play and entertain and feed themselves - but then, when I'm yelling at them to do this that and the other just to get some semblence of order back, i do feel guilty that i am shaming and pressuring them. I'm with you on that, Setfree. Just because the kids don't mind living in squalor doesn't mean they get to subject the whole household to it. I give them a lot of latitude in their own rooms, but their father and I have to live in the rest of the house, and we don't like squalor, or cleaning up messes that we didn't make. I don't think you need to feel guilty for refusing to let the kids treat you like a maid. They have to learn to take ownership of their living space; that's part of growing up. And most kids have a sense of fairness-- if there's a rule that the person who makes a mess cleans it up, that's fair. One thing that I've found works better than yelling (though I do my share of that too!) is consequences. Is an item on the floor one time too many? Then it's confiscated for a week. Do they want to have a friend over, or go out and play? No privileges are granted till they've done their jobs. The house belongs to the whole family, and we're all responsible for keeping it to a modicum of decency. And yeah-- mom gets to decide what that modicum is, because mom cares the most, and mom works harder than anyone else at keeping it there. ;D
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Post by setfree on Apr 6, 2010 0:50:24 GMT -5
thank you for that dose of sanity, krwordgazer. i needed that. One day I burst into tears (immediately knee-jerked into worrying about whether I was now doing emotional manipulation) and said, "I don't know WHY it bothers me so much (the mess)"' I think when you come out of spiritual abuse you are so paranoid that you are being abusive too. Because, you are. Because, it's all you've ever known or seen modelled. So there's a bit of over-compensating and pendulum swinging that goes on. Of course it's reasonable to expect kids to pick up after themselves. But do I need to be so hysterical about it, does it need to be so Loaded ... as you heal and get more balance, so much of the heat goes out of it. I hated being harped at and relentlessly criticized and used as the family maid just because I happened to be a girl. I feel awful when I hear myself repeating the same phrases ... Hope I'm not hijacking this here thread ...
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Apr 6, 2010 10:15:40 GMT -5
{sigh} IME, the oldest in a big family does everything but the labor pains, and in QF/patriactial household this basically gets squared as we are "being trained to become xtain wives and mothers". One of many reasons I don't have kids is that I changed enough diapers, chased enough toddlers and kept enough little kids quiet and out of trouble in my younger years. By the time I'd grown up and was out of the house, I decided I deserved a break. Big zen hugs, honey, growing up too fast sucks.
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Post by xara on Apr 6, 2010 10:49:45 GMT -5
Hugs. It sucks that you had to go through that.
I only had to raise one younger sister and that was enough to convince me not to have kids.
Take care of yourself.
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Post by dangermom on Apr 6, 2010 12:02:50 GMT -5
Oh, Starfury. I'm so sorry for what you were put through. It must have been endless. No wonder you wore a mask.
What happens to the younger girls in QF families? Does the labor get divided up as they get older? What if a family has 6 boys or something? Do they just have really neat lawns and a lot of venison? (I knew a family in high school that had like 7 brothers and a sister at the end, but they weren't QF and were pretty ordinary. Cute guys!)
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Apr 6, 2010 12:35:30 GMT -5
What happens to the younger girls in QF families? Does the labor get divided up as they get older? What if a family has 6 boys or something? Do they just have really neat lawns and a lot of venison? (I knew a family in high school that had like 7 brothers and a sister at the end, but they weren't QF and were pretty ordinary. Cute guys!) The sad part for us was that I trained Angel to be thorough and efficient while I was young and still had energy ~ by the time the younger girls were old enough to help out, I was way too worn out from all my years of childbearing to train them to nearly the same degree of perfection. Which meant that as much as I wanted to have Berea and Chasse take over Angel's work and free her up to pursue her own interests ~ the reality was that she could do perfectly in an hour what would take the younger two all day ~ in fact, if they got it done at all, it wouldn't be done right. So basically, we still ended up relying heavily on Angel just because she was so darn good.
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Post by sisof9 on Apr 6, 2010 12:40:00 GMT -5
sf - huuuugs!!! i am sorry you felt you had to bear that burden... well really that your parents placed it on you! and i totally understand the different expectations for your than for mom. when i was home alone with the kids and they destroyed stuff it was becasue i got on the computer but when mama was on the computer all day and they destroyed stuff it was because they were bad kids. *rolls eyes*
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Post by freefromtyranny on Apr 6, 2010 13:48:13 GMT -5
This post makes me very sad and very happy at the same time.
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maicde
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Post by maicde on Apr 6, 2010 14:57:52 GMT -5
Since no one has replied yet to what happens when a family has a lot of boys at the beginning vs. girls: well, in my case (and we were NEVER EVER QF nor did we subscribe to any patriarchal or fundamentalist model/system), we had 5 boys first and then 2 girls at the end. There are no neat lawns or venison (as someone mentioned earlier (jokingly-LOL!). The older two boys helped with the younger kids (brought diapers, would give them a bath occasionally, find clothes, etc.), but certainly there were no Mommy Jr., expectations. It was pretty much myself and my husband.
While I'm not 100% positive about this, I have a feeling that a lot of people would re-think their QF status if they didn't have some girls at the front-end taking care of (I mean...raising) the younger siblings. (Hello Duggars!). It would be amazing how fast some of these people would "get the message from God" that they should hold up a bit before bringing more kids into the world as there are no girl children to pick up the slack and prop the parents' "Quiverfull Supastar" status. I am well aware of how important it is for these families to present a pseudo-happy image to the world while living a much different life inside the gulag.
I am absolutely appalled that a child (boy or girl) is in all effect a parent to younger siblings because the parents are so burned out. I experienced the burn-out effect of raising 7 children in a normal, non-patriarchal household without all the fundamentalist impossible nonsense and I know how hard it was/is.
Bottom line, parents have only two hands each and in some of these households, it appears to me that it's only the mother that is expected to tend to the household and then the young girls.
From what I'm reading, it appears that the young girls gradually take over the mothering role as the mother becomes more and more of a burned-out robot. I don't mean this to be a callous remark. Bottom line is that there have been earlier years when I felt like a burned-out robot and it had nothing to do with patrarichal teachings. It had to do with the fact that none of us are machines that can keep going 24/7. We are not Energizer bunnies. As we age (I am now 47), I know for certain that I could not handle another pregnancy much less raise another baby without having a whole crew of people here to help. I know that the only reason this happens in patriarchal families is because the girls are in all effect, unpaid au pairs.
I feel immensely sorry for the young girls who cannot experience the joy of childhood before they are thrown into roles as child mothers/housekeepers. Even in the bible it says that there is a time and season for every purpose under heaven. There is no exception for patriarchial nonsense. JMO.
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Post by journey on Apr 6, 2010 16:06:30 GMT -5
freefromtyranny, ((((((((hugs))))))))))
It is so good to finally be free, isn't it. I'm right there with ya, sistah.
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Hillary
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Post by Hillary on Apr 6, 2010 16:16:39 GMT -5
This post makes me very sad and very happy at the same time. When my oldest was 10 yo we had 10 children. The baby stayed with me but she was expected to feed and care for all the rest. what's worse is my loser husband was not working. He hung out in his "office" and ignored everyone. But he made this stupid rule that no one was allowed to bother me while I laid in bed "resting". I hemorrhaged after the birth and I literally had to crawl to the bathroom, I was so weak. So I would lay in bed listening to the kids screaming and my oldest trying to keep them under control. Then stupid, moron, asshole would come out of his office to yell at them to be quiet so "mom can rest". After a couple days the kids started secretly coming to my door and knocking quietly so he would not hear. I would let them in, I wanted them in with me. Idiot refused...he never wanted kids in our room. I ended up dragging myself and baby out to the living room area so I could sit and interact and direct the kids. My poor oldest. Of course, that turned into I must be feeling better and I can get right back to work making meals, etc. I'm near tears just thinking about how bad things were for everyone, but especially my oldest. The good news is I am free from that now. We all are. The kids don't see their dad at all. My oldest is free to be a kid and I do the brunt of the baby care (my youngest is 3 mo old. I have 13 now.). My oldest doesn't even want to hold him and I don't blame her. She is slowly coming around so I hope I did not ruin her. I have apologized over and over. But not in a bad way, just in a "sorry I was so stupid and didn't get out sooner." way. It's amazing how little it takes to keep the house livable. It doesn't have to be spotless for the dictator anymore. We would all rather go splash in the creek than sweep the floor. So we do alot of that. Can't wait for part II. Oh my goodness! {{Freefromtyranny}} I am so sorry this happened to you. I'm glad you and your family are finding healing.
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Hillary
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Post by Hillary on Apr 6, 2010 16:22:48 GMT -5
Starfury ~ this is so sad. I look forward to the next part. Phatchick ~ I used to say that too: "I've done everything except give birth." The challenge for many of us is when we acknowledge how hard things can be is that people usually just turn around and say that we older daughters aren't grateful, don't want to serve, and are having a pity party or complaining. We can't voice our own struggles without someone adding, "Then think about how your mom feels!" And YES, moms are super tired. Honestly, I think most older daughters DID want to serve and help relieve their moms. I know it broke my heart seeing how exhausted my mom was everyday.
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Post by kiery on Apr 6, 2010 16:57:01 GMT -5
Starfury ~ this is so sad. I look forward to the next part. Phatchick ~ I used to say that too: "I've done everything except give birth." The challenge for many of us is when we acknowledge how hard things can be is that people usually just turn around and say that we older daughters aren't grateful, don't want to serve, and are having a pity party or complaining. We can't voice our own struggles without someone adding, "Then think about how your mom feels!" And YES, moms are super tired. Honestly, I think most older daughters DID want to serve and help relieve their moms. I know it broke my heart seeing how exhausted my mom was everyday. Exactly! Some of us don't even go there (or aren't allowed to) because of that. We just sort of nod and bury it until it won't stay buried...and then we're even more selfish because mom (who's exhausted telling you what to do from the chair) never gets a break anyway. /rant But yeah, same here. I know my mom wished she didn't she didn't have to rely on me so much but like Vyckie with Angel, she trained me and was too tired to do the others. Yet, she didn't seem to have that much of a problem with keeping things like that either, so it's confusing. Honestly it never really occurred to me that my mom could be hiding too - but maybe that's because my mom was the one who was putting herself under all that pressure, not my dad. Can you be voluntarily pushing yourself and your family into that lifestyle and be masked? Or just a control freak? Maybe my mom's perfectionism is a guilt thing, because she wants to seem awesome and full of faith like the Duggars and friends of ours, so she pushes perfectionism because she feels inadequate? Or maybe it's just that she feels like she needs to control her family because image really is a big motivation for her? I don't know...
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Post by freefromtyranny on Apr 6, 2010 17:38:47 GMT -5
Can you be voluntarily pushing yourself and your family into that lifestyle and be masked? Or just a control freak? Maybe my mom's perfectionism is a guilt thing, because she wants to seem awesome and full of faith like the Duggars and friends of ours, so she pushes perfectionism because she feels inadequate? Or maybe it's just that she feels like she needs to control her family because image really is a big motivation for her? I don't know... Remember, it happens gradually.
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Post by quivery on Apr 7, 2010 17:58:35 GMT -5
Starfury,
Your story is almost unbelievable, except I do believe it, and it makes me boil with red-hot rage inside to know what this particular lifestyle required of you as a CHILD! "Mommy 2" my rear end. I thought that CHILDREN were the most precious people in the Quiverfull movement, and yet it seems that as soon as these children are old enough to walk, talk, and hold objects in their hands, they are turned into UNPAID WORKERS for the family and the church they attend. Are their lives held as sacred above all only while they're in the womb, and then helpless infants and newborns?
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phatchick
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Post by phatchick on Apr 7, 2010 18:22:37 GMT -5
Honestly, I think most older daughters DID want to serve and help relieve their moms. I know it broke my heart seeing how exhausted my mom was everyday. It wasn't that I didn't want to help and god knows with 5 younger kids in the house, Mom needed all she could get. But sometimes it got a bit wearing, when my friends were able to hang out and have fun and I was stuck at home. I remember feeling pissed off about it and guilty for feeling pissed off. I was just being selfish.
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Post by Sierra on Apr 7, 2010 18:28:40 GMT -5
It wasn't that I didn't want to help and god knows with 5 younger kids in the house, Mom needed all she could get. But sometimes it got a bit wearing, when my friends were able to hang out and have fun and I was stuck at home. I remember feeling pissed off about it and guilty for feeling pissed off. I was just being selfish. Did any of you get angry with your parents for not stopping with all the new babies? I never had siblings (despite my mom's best efforts), but I never could swallow the 'letting God plan your family' line. I think if my mom was wearing herself into the ground with a lot of kids, after a while I would have snapped and yelled at her to stop doing it to herself already. Not that it would have helped, but I'm pretty sure that's how I would have felt.
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Post by kiery on Apr 7, 2010 18:41:58 GMT -5
I did! I might have muttered something along those lines once or twice, but not much more than that...bad repercussions if I did. The few times I hinted at it I got an earful of "serving and trusting God completely" "giving up ourselves and offering ourselves as a living sacrifice" and "having faith" needless to say, the inevitable guilt that I felt after (for being so selfish and/or lacking in faith/trust) basically resulted in me keeping my annoyed thoughts to myself for the most part. The one time I brought up condoms (my mom was sick of being pregnant) I was told "that would be going against God and taking control into our own hands, and they're abortive!" I might have tried to mention something about they don't usually come with spermicide, but yeah.
Although...my mom has her tubes tired now, but she feels horribly guilty about it (she had 2 bad pregnancies both resulting in C-sections and my grandparents paid for the tie-age after the most recent C-section).
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Post by sisof9 on Apr 9, 2010 11:49:49 GMT -5
See the "but I wanted to help" is what gets me everytime... There were definitely parts of being "mommy number 2" that I LOVED! I seriously enjoyed being a mom in many ways - I wanted to be the one they can to with their boo boos. I wanted to make them cookies. I wanted to read them stories and tuck them into bed and even correct them when one was hitting the other. So, when everything came to a head in my family and my parents kept saying "But you wanted to do it! You kept saying "I'll do it!" when a new issue would come along." And... it was true. I felt such GUILT when I realized I had essentially brought this on myself, and why was I complaining I had a good life overall, and I DID love my siblings... But, there was another part... in that a kid is not SUPPOSED to do it all, so while I may have been enjoying aspects AND wanting to be the "perfect homeschool daughter", it was my parents JOB to say "That's okay - we've got this" and to not just assume that because I seemed like I could handle it all that I could. I get scared because I wonder what MY daughers *assuming God gives me any * will be saying in 20 years... apart from the qf mother's birth and daughter's raise mindset... I DO Think it is healthy for the kids in a family to "help out", I DO think there are appropriate times to ask one of the older ones to dress, change, bathe, feed, whatever the younger ones. I don't think it is wrong to expect your kids to do chores or even when they are old enough to babysit sometimes... but there is a line and I get so scared I won't see it... I guess it's kinda like salvation "If you're scared by your sin than you're probably saved 'cause if you weren't saved you wouldn't care." So, I guess, at least I hope, that because I am so SCARED of leaning too heavily on my children that will help me to NOT?
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Post by krwordgazer on Apr 9, 2010 14:26:55 GMT -5
Sisof9, if this helps at all-- I think a good rule of thumb is, who is helping and who is responsible? And is the one responsible, actually mature enough to handle that level of responsibility? If not, don't give it to them.
For example, my kids are responsible to clean their own rooms-- but they help clean the rest of the house.
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