|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jan 2, 2010 11:13:56 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by grandmalou on Jan 2, 2010 17:57:14 GMT -5
Thank you for this, Erika! You have explained so explicitly how outsiders feel around QF/P families, how like wanting to belong, and not being wanted. Like not fit to be called a human, let alone a relative or friend. "The scum of the earth", is how I felt most of the years of Vyckie's marriage to Wiggins. And yet, there were times he seemed to try so hard to make me feel like a part of 'the family'...yeah, it was confusing. Kinda like being held onto with one hand, and pushed away with the other. What a way to live, huh?
|
|
|
Post by anatheist on Jan 2, 2010 18:55:01 GMT -5
I'm glad that you were able to reconnect with some of those friends.
My mother pushed away my two best friends when I was a teenager because they were "too secular". I think it's always made me more wary of making close female friends.
One of them is still crazy and fun, but she moved on from me and doesn't want to reconnect. The other one returned to the fold, married a pastor's grandson, had her first child, and is tightly cloistered with a group of religious SAHMs. We've partially reconnected, but have almost nothing in common except a few shared childhood memories.
|
|
|
Post by stampinmama on Jan 2, 2010 21:53:46 GMT -5
Sadly, I've been on both sides of the fence. I've been on the side where people were pushed away from me, but since I've come out of the movement, I've only been one of the people that was pushed away. Not only by the parents of friends, but by the friends themselves. Even though I was on the other side at one time, I never was the one to push people away. It was my parents pushing people away. So, when it happened that I was the one being pushed away, I was still just as confused as I was when people were pushed away from me. I hope that made sense. For a while, years ago, I tried to stay connected to those that were pushing me away. There came a point, though, when I realized that I could only give so much but I wasn't going to compromise who I was to stay friends with someone that didn't want me to be their friend. I'm available if they ever want to reconnect, but there will be NO compromise on my part. It's either take it or leave it with me. The choice is up to them. I can't live having such acidity in my life.
|
|
|
Post by anatheist on Jan 3, 2010 2:30:19 GMT -5
Even though I was on the other side at one time, I never was the one to push people away. It was my parents pushing people away. So, when it happened that I was the one being pushed away, I was still just as confused as I was when people were pushed away from me. Do you feel that someone being pushed away is the only reason that people don't stay connected, or that you haven't stayed connected with some of your old friends? My mother pushed a few friends and boyfriends away, and after my deconversion and divorce, many people deliberately didn't want anything to do with me, including my former best friend. But with some, nothing ended up pushing us apart so much as simply not going to church anymore. Without shared faith, we realized that we didn't share much else, and with them still going to church 3, even 4 times a week... there just wasn't even the time for us to develop a new friendship around a different schedule, different activities. At first I was resentful, but now I realize it wasn't anyone's fault. They didn't not have time for me because they were purposely avoiding me... religious activities just filled up their whole life. It's one of the reasons it's hard to leave.
|
|
phatchick
Junior Member
Medicated for Your Protection
Posts: 80
|
Post by phatchick on Jan 3, 2010 4:01:04 GMT -5
At first I was resentful, but now I realize it wasn't anyone's fault. They didn't not have time for me because they were purposely avoiding me... religious activities just filled up their whole life. It's one of the reasons it's hard to leave. IMO, there's also the fact that often ALL you have in common is church and religion. After I left the baptist church, when I'd run into church friends and we'd start talking, I'd realize that while they were very nice people, I had nothing in common with them and the only thing we'd ever talked about before had been church. Without that there was nothing else holding the friendship together.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Jan 3, 2010 20:33:37 GMT -5
It does happen that people just grow apart. But pushing people away because they aren't holy enough for you isn't supposed to be what following Jesus is about at all. The Pharisees condemned Jesus for not pushing people away. He didn't care. Your story continues to wring my heart, Stampinmama.
|
|
|
Post by philosophia on Jan 5, 2010 18:25:47 GMT -5
Last night I had a chat with a conventional homeschooling Christian friend whose daughter is friends with a QF family. It seems there was a disagreement between the two families which reminded me so much of this excerpt written by Erika. (I actually asked my friend to read it.)
The two daughters were collaborating on a work of fiction and a section my friend's daughter wrote involved a battle scene with some not very graphic violence. But QF mother objected to passages not written with "grace, as Jesus would have written" and requested it be changed. (Hmm) When QF daughter mentiioned this to the writer, the writer objected. After all, it was a battle scene.) An argument ensued between the girls.
My friend sought to explain her daughter's position to QF mom and mend fences. The reply she received said in essence that: 1. The scene was basically unholy. 2. The two friends needed to not disagree with each other (??) 3. She is training her own daughter to abstain from defending herself (very sad) with the implication the other daughter ought to do the same. 4. QF daughter was in trouble even though she stood up for her mother's position because she had related her mother's position, was disagreed with, and hung up. (what else does one do when one is not allowed to defend oneself?)
My friend is sad for her daughter who is trying to be friends with the QF girl, but it gets harder and harder. And from my perspective the QF daughter needs that outside influence to keep some perspective.
Interestingly, when the QF daughter told her mother about the argument, she said her friend told her that editing the scene would be "stupid" which was not what was said. My opinion is that "stupid" was the conclusion QF daughter came to about her mother's edit after she was reasoned with. You never know! Hope springs eternal!
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Jan 5, 2010 22:15:57 GMT -5
At first I was resentful, but now I realize it wasn't anyone's fault. They didn't not have time for me because they were purposely avoiding me... religious activities just filled up their whole life. It's one of the reasons it's hard to leave. IMO, there's also the fact that often ALL you have in common is church and religion. After I left the baptist church, when I'd run into church friends and we'd start talking, I'd realize that while they were very nice people, I had nothing in common with them and the only thing we'd ever talked about before had been church. Without that there was nothing else holding the friendship together. Yep I've come to that conclusion myself with a lot of people. I pretty much only go to church a few times a year now. I like the people but the friendships are really non-existant and I've realized it's because church events are the thing that dominated conversation. If you don't attend these endless meetings you have nothing to talk about. They also pretty much do all their socializing at church events. Sometimes I'll go out for a social evening with a bunch of them and the whole conversation is about church stuff. Since I don't even have that in common any more I have nothing to say. It's quite sad.
|
|
|
Post by caroline on Jan 6, 2010 16:13:39 GMT -5
Do you feel that someone being pushed away is the only reason that people don't stay connected, or that you haven't stayed connected with some of your old friends? My mother pushed a few friends and boyfriends away, and after my deconversion and divorce, many people deliberately didn't want anything to do with me, including my former best friend. But with some, nothing ended up pushing us apart so much as simply not going to church anymore. Without shared faith, we realized that we didn't share much else, and with them still going to church 3, even 4 times a week... there just wasn't even the time for us to develop a new friendship around a different schedule, different activities. At first I was resentful, but now I realize it wasn't anyone's fault. They didn't not have time for me because they were purposely avoiding me... religious activities just filled up their whole life. It's one of the reasons it's hard to leave. I always wonder about this, myself. When I left my parents' church almost 6 years ago, only one friend stuck with me. The others just...disappeared. I don't know what they were told/not told by my parents, or, for the most part, if they even bothered to ask about me. They certainly never contacted me personally (unless I contacted them first) or tried to find out from me why I had left, etc. Unlike you, I resent this, whatever the reason. I don't make new friends quickly/easily, and when I do, there is a genuine connection and I truly care about that person on a personal level. So, to me, people allowing busyness of religious activity to keep them from even trying to remain friends with someone who had left their religious circle was insulting on two levels--it showed that those people did not really care about me the way I care(d) about them, and that they were not even following the basic Christian principle (at least it was considered basic in the circles where I was raised) of reaching out to those who have "fallen" or "strayed." Perhaps it is contradictory for me to resent the latter, as I have no intention of ever returning to the fold, but on an emotional level, that knowledge is damning. Had our positions been reversed, I would have reached out to any of them, and in my book the fact that they did not constitutes "pushing away" as much as anything hurtful they might believe or say about me.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Jan 6, 2010 19:02:34 GMT -5
I related to everything you say Caroline. I was quite stunned for a long time to realize that these friendships were so conditional, something I had no idea when I was in them. I've now come to see how much of it is based on meetings. If you aren't attending the service or bible study or whatever you are just not visible any more. I've gone from not understanding this at all to being flabbergasted by it to being really angry about it to now having a huge red flag about any relationships that are glued together with meetings. Meetings--YUCK.
I have friends I have had for years and we've never been in the same churches, never had a friendship based on meetings. We might not see each other for months but when we do see each other we are talking about our LIVES not who is in charge of salads for the women's ministry.
I feel like I've learned something.
|
|
jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
|
Post by jeb on Jan 6, 2010 20:05:37 GMT -5
I'm not sure that it's only religious folks that do this sort of thing, eh? I've monkeyed around with various multi-level marketing groups over the years and whilst you were trying to market whatever, the folks doing the same were your friends. But if you decided, after spending a ton of money and hours of time, that this program wasn't for you, the 'friends' you had in that group were no longer your friends because all you had in common was the product you were marketing and the meetings etc. connected with marketing that product. They were still 'True Believers' and you were not so . . . bye bye. I broached that to one of the folks in the last group I was involved with and he denied it in the most emphatic terms. However, when, because of my health, I had to drop out of the program, I never heard from them again. Seeing is believing, eh? Just a thought. John Be kind to one another . . . or I'll put a hex on yah. ;D just joking, just joking
|
|
syfr
New Member
Posts: 30
|
Post by syfr on Jan 8, 2010 10:27:41 GMT -5
jeb,
From what I've read, some multi-level marketing organizations are cults or cult-like, and they seem to use the same types of techinques that some of the scarier churches do, such as isolating people from outside views, and cutting off relationships outside of the group.
I dated someone who had been in an MLM scheme years before I met him, and the damage done was still there. Because he had not made a success of *****, he was a failure, just like the tapes he had to buy from his superior said. The failure was him, not the system, and he just needed to work harder next time.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Jan 8, 2010 15:39:39 GMT -5
My own experience is that in-depth friendships are difficult to make and keep after you're out of college. Here in the US, connections between people in general seem to be rather shallow. We don't have or make much time for anyone who is not family.
The Internet provides a sort of short-cut because you can get right to talking about real issues with people, skipping most of the getting-to-know you small talk.
Anyway, work and church relationships, being based only on common experience, are shallow to begin with and usually won't outlast a change in circumstances, unless you've found a way to connect with a person on a deeper level before the circumstances change.
I will agree that some companies (particularly the sale-clubs like Mary Kay and Amway), can also be cult-like, especially if the person in charge of a particular team is codependent in any way.
|
|
|
Post by austin on Jan 13, 2010 15:59:15 GMT -5
Caroline, this is my experience, too. I am in the process of leaving my church. Although I certainly haven't made any grand announcement (nor will I), word seems to have gotten around, even though I had shared it with one person in confidence.
I say "in process" because I have one more time that I have to go to fulfill a commitment I made quite some time ago. I had to share with the person I made the commitment to, so that she wouldn't put me on the schedule again, and I guess that's how it got out.
Anyway, although I haven't contracted leprosy, suddenly people are very busy, way too busy to spend time with me. I understand "busy" (I have a husband, three teenagers, a house to keep, and a full-time job), but this is ridiculous.
I work with one of the women from my church, and although she used to regularly grab a bite to eat in order to talk and catch up, she is now just "totally booked". I also walked three miles a night, about four or five nights a week over the summer (for exercise), with this same woman, so I thought we had a pretty good friendship, one that I thought would transcend any church-related decision on my part.
Wrong.
I just feel kind of stupid, I guess. Like it shouldn't hurt, but it does.
*sigh*
|
|
|
Post by coleslaw on Jan 13, 2010 18:49:36 GMT -5
I know this is off-topic, but even if you had contracted leprosy, that would be no reason for people to avoid you. First of all, 95% of the human population is not vulnerable to the Hansen's bacillus (which causes leprosy), so you would be no threat to them, and second of all, leprosy can now be cured. People would have more reason to avoid you if you had the H1N1 virus.
|
|
|
Post by rosa on Jan 14, 2010 12:11:08 GMT -5
Austin, I'm really sorry you're losing that friendship.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Jan 15, 2010 3:21:59 GMT -5
Austin I am sorry I know what you mean, you feel stupid and it DOES hurt. I never really connected with the people in my current church, only part of which is my now failure to attend anything more than a few times a year. At one point I was regular and I used to think about moving churches just to find a group I made more friends in. In fact I pretty much expected that would be happen some day. But now.. now I just don't want to go through all that again. I don't want to show up at some new meeting and make friends and wonder if it is all based on us being at the same meetings. LOL. It helps that in the last year I've made some very diverse friends who don't attend any churches and I can already see the difference in a friendship not based on an umbrella organization and its meetings.
|
|