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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 17, 2009 18:03:50 GMT -5
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Post by xara on Nov 17, 2009 18:19:21 GMT -5
journey, How horrible. No one should have to go through that.
*Hugs*
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Nov 17, 2009 19:07:03 GMT -5
that's
really
hard
just to
READ.
(something's jumping to my mind about "the years that the locusts have eaten...")
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Post by tapati on Nov 17, 2009 19:21:11 GMT -5
When Mark heard from God, though, we knew it was really God, because, well, it was Mark. Mark was amazing.
This was hysterically funny in a gallows' humor kind of way.
The rest of it...OMG. Is this guy OCD or what? Mike/Mahsraya had a bit of a thing about housecleaning but this guy really had him beat. Many of our fights were over some bit of housecleaning that wasn't done in a timely manner according to him.
But to think you can control when your baby wakes up? That's over the top even for a control freak.
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Post by anatheist on Nov 17, 2009 20:55:14 GMT -5
I'm so sorry you had to go through that!
I was wondering if you ever found out whether Mark was obsessive-compulsive. I'm not trying to excuse him in any way, but it sounds like he needed professional help- the cleaning list, having to wait for the exact time, the 26 translations... Actually, that last one is what makes me really wonder, because if he just wanted to make you miserable, seems like he'd just target you, but it sounds like he ran his own life that way too.
It's something that's seemed like a pattern to me in several of these stories actually- someone has a problem, either out of their control (like Warren's blindness) or their own fault (like his controlling behavior)... and they're never encouraged to seek professional help, or are even actively discouraged. The same was true for those of us who were undergoing depression and related issues because of our lifestyles. I know that some sects, and even some more mainstream Christians believe that psychology is wrong and that any problems can be overcome with Jesus' help, prayer, Bible reading, etc.- basically that all mental/emotional problems are spiritual. It seems so sad to me that there may have been a time that help was available... maybe not "marriage-saving" help or something that would make a person totally different... but help nonetheless, that could have made a difference for us or our spouses... and we were deceived into thinking that god didn't want that for us.
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Post by kisekileia on Nov 17, 2009 21:58:17 GMT -5
That's exactly what I was thinking. This guy sounds like he had a serious case of OCD along with the colossal control issues.
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Post by jadehawk on Nov 17, 2009 22:22:31 GMT -5
This was extremely painful to read... took me forever to be able to respond at all, since it's somewhat tangential, but I had a thought when I read this:
asides from the obvious (he was a massive ass), this is the sort of thing that happens to everyone:
we're all above average drivers, but everyone else is either a "sunday driver" or a raging maniac; we all know what we're doing, but other people are clueless sheeple; we have revelations, other people are schizophrenic; etc.
I think this is at least partially because nobody can really comprehend what it means to be tricked by one's own brain. you can see when other people disconnect from reality, but you can't see yourself disconnecting like that because subjectively, IT ALL SEEMS REAL. This is most blatantly obvious in the cases of mental disease, but it happens to everybody every day: our memories suck; our brains lie to us; we see and hear things that aren't real; but the feel just like the real thing, and to doubt or disbelieve them feels like doubting your sanity (or doubting the rest of reality)
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Post by rosa on Nov 17, 2009 22:39:22 GMT -5
And, not one person saw him glaring at you and said to you, "hey, are you OK?" I understand that people have ideals that require this kind of behavior. I don't understand how they actually *do* it.
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juju
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by juju on Nov 17, 2009 23:13:54 GMT -5
Wow. Just...wow.
I dated a guy like that for awhile. Not religious, just totally controlling. I look back on it now and all I can say is "What was I THINKING?" The sex was great. I was obviously ruled by hormones. But this guy was just a complete asshole and he had ME convinced that I was the one who needed help. How do they do this? Seriously?
I cannot even voice my fury at your ex. I mean, he was obviously mentally ill but please.
Do you have any contact with him now? Because of the kids? I hope not, for your sake. I hope you took your babies and ran fast and far.
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Post by arietty on Nov 17, 2009 23:20:01 GMT -5
Very hard to read Journey. Brought back so many memories of how excruciating it was to live with my ex, how normal happy every day events such as talking to people in church or taking care of your baby were deeply fraught with fear as to his reaction. I also had that whole deeply cold angry thing after I had been verbal at someone's house or at church. So many terrible things with babies I've been depressed thinking about it since reading this. My heart goes out to you. I'm so glad I'm reading this now as the story of your PAST and that you are free now to speak and use your gifts and care for your children and simply BE. I am so happy about that!! I've had a lot of humiliating memories from reading your post.. humiliating because I look back in shock that I put up with such things.. and that I found solace in the patriarchal teachings which told me I would be closer to God by putting up with them. Gilding the cage, gilding the cage.. ((((((HUGS))))))
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Post by journey on Nov 18, 2009 1:55:14 GMT -5
Thank you all for your kindness. Typing this out is so painful. It just seems so OBVIOUS now, writing down the details, but then, it wasn't obvious at all. We had no idea, no clue, about mental illness issues, for one thing. For another thing, the line between mental illness and sold-out-for-God is a very fine one... There's also the issues of all the good things Mark did, all the kind things, all the tender moments, all the nice things. It wasn't like he was a monster, if you know what I'm saying, even though he would do things that were so destructive to my soul. At that time, I stil think he literally thought his rules and commands for me were literally GOOD for me... He thought he was the nearest thing to perfect, so it made sense for him to try and turn me into him. At that time, at least, I still believe a lot of what he did to me was born of love, even though it was a twisted up sort of love.
Btw, OCD-ish issues or something like that, as some of you have mentioned, are something I personally suspect he was dealing with then, but it's not something he has ever been officially diagnosed with.
Someone mentioned that he seemed just as hard on himself as he was on me, and I think that would be true, especially at that stage in our marriage, when his heart towards me still seemed very tender (ie, he wasn't openly hating me, he seemed to be genuine still, at that point, even if genuinely screwed up). He knew the Bible inside and out, but he did not understand the concept of grace and still doesn't, as far as I know, to this day. I don't know if he can, mentally, actually wrap his mind around such a thing. I really don't know.
I'm not familiar enough with OCD to know if that would be an accurate diagnosis or not for that time period, but I do know that something in that arena was always very "off." The neat freak issues were always odd, in that some things were incredibly anal, and yet other things were completely untouched and considered no big deal. It was always "all or nothing." Either it was perfect (or in the process of being turned into perfect), or it was left slovenly and completely disregarded.
For example, when my kids got old enough to get bikes, the bikes were just left out in the rain, uncovered, to rust, and my attempts to get them covered or ask for them to be covered or somehow taken care of in any way were treated with scoffing, like I was being silly for wanting the bikes to be protected from the weather or to have the tires checked and aired, etc. Yet other things had to be Perfect (like, not stopping at a stop sign for the full five seconds was considered to be in rebellion against God Himself).
I've literally still not been able to figure out how the system inside of his head worked/works, even after years of trying to study him, anticipate and meet his needs and please him as a "godly wife" should, and even still today, with the ability to look back on those years...I still don't get it. I remember thinking that I finally understood it, and then I'd blow it in some huge area that to him was unredeemable and I'd be back at square one, starting over, trying to figure out how in the world to please this man (after all, the books all said that the marriage relationship is a mirror of your relationship with God, so if your husband isn't pleased with you, then, well, what does that say about how God feels about you?)...
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Post by whatkindofwoman on Nov 18, 2009 9:30:16 GMT -5
He knew the Bible inside and out, but he did not understand the concept of grace and still doesn't, as far as I know, to this day. and that is just it. Knowing the Bible inside and out, and missing grace. Being taught the Bible minus grace. Having the Bible used against you, minus grace, with a verse here and a verse there and a bunch more verses from way over there...to construct a version of God who's just like your husband. And we try so hard, and try so hard, and try so hard, and try so hard, and try so hard, to please God...and every time we're reminded by something (such as life) that we're human, then we wonder which rule of God's we failed to follow. And then worshiping this G(g)od, or praying to Him in a heart-to-heart kind of way, feels just like "climbing upstairs" to have sex with your husband at the end of the day. edited to add: feeling so guilty for not wanting to be intimate with your God...wondering what's wrong with me, what a defective Christian I must be...(and of course you don't admit this to any of the other Christians in your life)All this because of learning the Bible minus grace, and minus the resting in God, resting in Christ. All these Gothards and Prides and Lindvalls ought to be locked up with their Bibles in some beautiful natural environment and prohibited from leaving until they produce meaningful 100-page essays on The Grace of God.
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Post by rosa on Nov 18, 2009 10:23:41 GMT -5
Arietty, gilding the cage is exactly what it is.
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Post by hopewell on Nov 18, 2009 11:29:25 GMT -5
Reading this makes me even happier to be single..... I hope to later read of the day comes when you take a shovel and beat him over the head with it!
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Post by margybargy on Nov 18, 2009 14:39:01 GMT -5
Reading this makes me even happier to be single..... I hope to later read of the day comes when you take a shovel and beat him over the head with it! HA...'scuse me......sorry....Hopewell said it.
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blair
New Member
Posts: 27
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Post by blair on Nov 18, 2009 17:31:33 GMT -5
Wow, Journey. It's so hard for me to read about this. My heart is bleeding for you, all stuck and broken and miserable and trying to please that wretched man. I look forward to reading about how you found a way out. ((hugs))
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Post by charis on Nov 18, 2009 19:46:15 GMT -5
Just caught up today with your "Shutting off my Brain" series and this new one. I identify very much with some of the episodes you described.
I'm so glad you are able to share here, and I love the screen name "Journey". We are all on a journey and having friends who understand the journey helps. Having the freedom to share my own story helped me to process and reading your story is helping me to process some more.
((((((((Hugs))))))))
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Post by mompom on Nov 18, 2009 20:06:29 GMT -5
I have to say, I totally "get" how you would stay there and think what you thought. I've never heard a message on submission that would have addressed something like this. In fact, I heard messages where women would say, "I check my daily schedule with my husband every morning so as to be the best help to him and to make sure I'm doing what he thinks I should do." I knew women who exited friendships because their husbands didn't think they should "invest any more time when the other people didn't seem to be growing close to God fast enough." These were normal (seeming), really respected (really really really respected) people with happy kids and families. If I would have heard *that message* and lived YOUR life, I would have stayed too.
I'm glad you realized it eventually. I can't wait to hear the rest.
I have to wonder, did you also go through a depression, because when my husband and I were in a deeply controlling religious group I did. I didn't put two and two together until we were out.
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Post by krwordgazer on Nov 19, 2009 16:18:00 GMT -5
I've literally still not been able to figure out how the system inside of his head worked/works, even after years of trying to study him, anticipate and meet his needs and please him as a "godly wife" should, and even still today, with the ability to look back on those years...I still don't get it. I remember thinking that I finally understood it, and then I'd blow it in some huge area that to him was unredeemable and I'd be back at square one, starting over, trying to figure out how in the world to please this man (after all, the books all said that the marriage relationship is a mirror of your relationship with God, so if your husband isn't pleased with you, then, well, what does that say about how God feels about you?)... Well, here's one thing that I think could have been happening: when things were going too well, he'd feel threatened that you were beginning to get a little strength back. The sudden "blowing it in some huge area" and being "knocked back to square one" happened because "square one" was the only place he felt truly comfortable with you being. He needed you off-balance, gasping, reaching out for him to comfort you from the devastation he'd just wrought-- so that you'd reach out to him, reaffirm that he the center of your life. He didn't want you to speak in church because you made too much sense, and people liked you too much. That might make you not need him as much. You've probably figured all this out already, Journey-- but a relative of mine was in a cult with a female leader like this. The leader would sometimes tell my relative, "That's it! You've lost your salvation. You're damned eternally now," and then when my relative was back at "square one" in weakness, the leader would claim to have prayed and restored her to God's favor. Horrible. So glad you're free and healing, as is she.
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Post by journey on Nov 20, 2009 13:36:45 GMT -5
Wow. Thank you all for your comments and for contributing your thoughts and experiences here. kr, that was very insightful and is probably correct. charis, i love the name, too. thank you, Vyckie, for giving it to me. It is all too true. mompom, I'm not a depressed person, by nature, but I think there was a period there where I was deep in depression (now, looking back, I can see that, but I didn't then), not for hormonal or other physical reasons, but a situational depression (where anybody in their right mind would be depressed). Just right there towards the end, when I began seeing what was going on, still totally against the idea of divorce, and yet realizing there may be no "cure" for the problems...it was the feeling of resigning myself to what I was going to have to live with for the rest of my life...I didn't have a lot of extra brain power to think about that, since most of my energy was directed towards surviving the moment/hour/day, but there was this feeling of being in a prison and knowing I would be there until I died. It was a horrible feeling...my home, my "biblical calling," was my prison. It was an amazing thing, the day I "woke up" and realized that I had the key (the personal power and ability to CHOOSE, to THINK, to ACT)...all that time, I'd always had the key... My husband, and the teachings from the Biblical Patriarchy camp had told me otherwise (had essentially taught me that only Satan had the key, that if I used the key, I'd be on Satan's side, etc) but there it was, in my hand, all along...and, in my opinion, it was Christ who helped me see that and who truly set me free.
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jwr
Full Member
Posts: 218
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Post by jwr on Nov 23, 2009 1:50:01 GMT -5
Maybe I missed a link, but this story seems to end in the middle. No resolution. I hope things got better, but probably not. This man's gradual nice-to-baleful personality change reminds me of the anti-hero (played by Jack Nicholson) in the movie The Shining. Did this guy ever get that far (go on an ax rampage)? If so, I hope the wife escaped and he too froze to death outside with a deranged grin on his face.
Or maybe he didn't go full psycho and just stuck with his plan to build the ark. That would be a good little boost to Oregon's timber industry.
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Post by margybargy on Nov 23, 2009 9:33:49 GMT -5
Secret Lives of Women had an episode on control murderers - controlling husbands who murder their wives. The lethal violence tends to happen when the woman tries to leave. Dangerous and scary. Journey's husband certainly had the control going.
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linnea
Junior Member
Posts: 80
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Post by linnea on Nov 24, 2009 22:37:41 GMT -5
jwr, I think (I hope!) Journey will continue telling her story, but from what she's told us of her current life, she's separated from her husband, in the process of divorcing, and healing.
(Hi, folks, I've been mostly lurking here, but thought I'd jump in and answer jwr's question. Major hugs to Journey, and thanks for the posts.)
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Post by journey on Nov 25, 2009 1:43:50 GMT -5
Thanks so much. Sorry I'd missed the question. Yes, these posts are about my journey, and aren't anywhere close to being done. I am slow about getting the next one in... I admit that I actually hate writing them... It just makes me sick to remember it all. So...more installments will come...I just have to get up the guts to continue. It's sort of like (pardon the grossness) vomiting when you have a stomach virus. You feel better because you got it all out, but only after the fact. I am currently in the divorce process. I pretty much hate it. I spend most of my time breathing deep of the good things now in my life, and working up the strength to plow through the awful process of making this brokenness "official" (with the full knowledge/faith/hope that there is life on the other side, even when it sometimes feels like there couldn't possibly be such a thing).
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Post by margybargy on Nov 25, 2009 2:35:31 GMT -5
There's really nothing I can say. Just more ((hugs)).
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