Testing the Spirit of Quiverfull: Isolation

[Vyckie D. Garrison]

Testing the Spirit of Quiverfull: Isolation by KR Wordgazer

nolongerquivering.com/2010/04/13/testing-the-spirit-of-quiverfull-isolation/

[krwordgazer]

Thanks for posting the first installment in this series, Vyckie!

To non-Christian members-- I apologize for all the Scripture references; I realize that you may find it unpleasant to read. The intended audience is women or girls who are in Quiverfull or considering becoming Quiverfull, and who are questioning it from a Christian perspective. Scripture is what they will be swayed by, so Scripture is what we're using to support the spiritual abuse checkpoints.

As usual, I'd appreciate input, especially from ex-QFers, as to whether this would have been helpful/convincing to them as they began considering escape. Thanks!

(PS. Vyckie wrote part of the post. Can you guess which part? ;D)

[rosa]

It's beautiful, KR.

[Sierra]

Apr 13, 2010 14:37:50 GMT -5 krwordgazer said:

Thanks for posting the first installment in this series, Vyckie!

To non-Christian members-- I apologize for all the Scripture references; I realize that you may find it unpleasant to read. The intended audience is women or girls who are in Quiverfull or considering becoming Quiverfull, and who are questioning it from a Christian perspective. Scripture is what they will be swayed by, so Scripture is what we're using to support the spiritual abuse checkpoints.

As usual, I'd appreciate input, especially from ex-QFers, as to whether this would have been helpful/convincing to them as they began considering escape. Thanks!

(PS. Vyckie wrote part of the post. Can you guess which part? ;D)

KR, your point was brilliantly clear. There's no need to apologize for Scripture when it clearly matters to your target audience. And frankly, if I hadn't started thinking differently about Scripture when I was stuck in fundamentalism, I never would have got out.

I know that my story in itself would frighten a lot of quiverfull women away, lest they end up atheists like me. But atheism was and is only one option - rehabilitating the image God from someone hanging over their heads in condemnation to someone who is on their side is just as valid an endpoint to the process of leaving spiritual abuse.

[janedoe]

KR brilliant writing, and I hope you publish more. This isn't just helpful to ex QF women,

but is so needed for numerous women within mainstream churches--

I also wanted to say, having been getting a LOT of answers regarding the RA abuse [and I know now tied into SRA] that the same rituals, they have a lot in common, and I've seen these same rituals within many political and secular patriarchal /or group think type of groups or ways of living, etc.

And I am finding, when one has been victimized through Any kind of RA be it religious or SRA or Political or in wars [they use same techniques] or in psychiatric [it happens, esp to women], or in systems,

that Until those psychological damages are uncovered and deconstructed, one will fall into OTHER groups or with people, that do the same things, including in personal relationships. This is where I've been seeing more of the common threads,

but I think it takes really knowing how the psychology of the 'controls' work, to see or recognize it, though Where those started, or begun rather,

is left open to debate and belief of the individual. I believe it IS spiritual, no doubt about it...but for those who may not believe in the spiritual, Eric Hoffer has written some good books on social controls and group mob following, etc. While I don't concur with him from a political standpoint [he tends to be 'right' thinking] I do believe, where mass following and social engineering is concerned,

that is very similar to spiritual abuse in small AND in large theocracies, he has nailed it on many points. Also Hannah Ardent's Origins of Totalitarianism,

amazing, at how similar the techniques, social engineers [and ritual techniques/abuse] at that, are somewhat identical and produce the same identical results...

for me, it took going to one ideology/group think/social controls to another, to come full circle,

the other day, someone told me, isms, is like the 'gods' ,

and I believe there is a lot of truth to that. gods = isms,

God or

fundamentalism, feminism, communism, socialism, atheism, agnosticism, fascism, humanism, vanguardism, centralism, anarchism, satanism, etc

"isms"

isms, all require, loyalty, group think, compliance to certain platforms of beliefs/central beliefs set by a few or one, zero tolerance to other beliefs, etc

and they all require, mind control, through techniques...through Force, eventually force.

Question is, Why? And is there a 'force' behind them or behind some of them? I believe there is...

Jane

[Vyckie D. Garrison]

Apr 13, 2010 14:37:50 GMT -5 krwordgazer said:

(PS. Vyckie wrote part of the post. Can you guess which part? ;D)

Hey ~ I tried not to make it too obvious by having a bunch of my signature squigglies throughout the section which I added ~ LOL

KR ~ thank you so much for agreeing to work on this series for NLQ. I cannot tell you how grateful I am that you are willing to tackle the QF message from a biblical standpoint ~ and especially knowing how incredibly frustrating it can be to produce articles which might actually get through to QF followers.

I don't know how many times during my QF years, I would be so despairing of ever having any real "like-minded" fellowship ~ I was desperately praying that the Lord would lead us to other families who believed the way we did ~ but all the QF churches were at least an hour to two hours away. I suspect that is not the case any longer ~ if we had not gotten out, I'm pretty sure we would be finding more and more families in the area who are QFers because the teachings really are spreading ~ and now, nearly every time I go out, I spot at least one family whom I suspect have adopted the lifestyle.

I believe that so long as evangelical believers continue to "fear absolutely everything" ~ (liberals in govt., the "End Times," etc) ~ more and more will choose to homeschool ~ and that's where they are going to encounter the QF ideals. Once families put their feet on that path of fear and retreat ~ they will gradually become so isolated that absolutely NOBODY qualifies as "like-minded" and godly enough to associate with.

[janedoe]

I'm going to add relativism and universalism to those too,

simply because, while they may not in the beginning, use the isolation techniques, in the same way, they do make 'alliances' with those, that Do, and for women,

this is deadly.

Literally...

so I'll add them to the 'isms' list.

Just some things been pondering and connecting the dots so to speak...

And I do believe, there is Numerous similarities, between the RA that I experienced and with the QF where Political and Nationalist power is concerned...as well as with the Dominion movement. The testimonies I read on QF daughters and other blogs,

are almost Identical...to much of what I went through, though it's manifested in different ways. The techniques though, are just too similar to just dismiss, as mere coincidence.

Jane

[hopewell]

An interesting post. I've never taken "be in the world, but not of the world" to mean I should not continue[so to speak] to live the Great Commandment. If we stay isolated, only associating with the "saved" [for want of a better term] how are we to be "salt and light" to the unsaved?

True believers” are encouraged to seek “like-minded” fellowship
In a sense we all do this--we find friends and other families who share our "outlook" [spare me the "worldview" stuff!] and who have similar interests, income, same aged kids etc. The problem is when the bar becomes so high that you are stuck only with fellow travelers who also know with certainty that they are part of a new "elect"--pretty boring! And, not doing the work of the Great Commission of going into all lands, baptizing and making disciples! It's simply hiding out in the bunker and keeping your kids "pure" of such evil as singing vegetables on dvd, or music played with electric guitars, or other kids Mommy's who wear jeans!

[ambrosia]

Apr 13, 2010 16:28:23 GMT -5 @janedoe said:

I'm going to add relativism and universalism to those too,

simply because, while they may not in the beginning, use the isolation techniques, in the same way, they do make 'alliances' with those, that Do, and for women,

this is deadly.

Literally...

so I'll add them to the 'isms' list.

Just some things been pondering and connecting the dots so to speak...

Well...OK. How about organism or heroism. Even better: solipsism.

When language and ideas have become The Enemy rather than tools, it indicates that they are being misused. Ideas are dangerous in that they can be used to either close or open minds. If you choose "opening", they are dangerous only to the closers.

[arietty]

I was already isolated when I began the QF journey (with 3 kids). I had managed to connect with a couple church based ventures that I really enjoyed, volunteered at a church book based ministry for instance. I was very very excited about this because it suited me perfectly and I enjoyed it SO much.. but when I began homeschooling we were told, or rather terrorized with, the idea that we could NOT go out during the day with our kids because of the, at the time, grey area legalities of homeschooling. Apparently we were all in terrible danger of having human services take our children away from us at any moment and to be seen in the supermarket with school age children at noon was madness, sheer folly.. this was total nonsense of course. The non-religious homeschool groups laughed at the religious ones for this silliness. But I bought it, I easily bought fear which was not surprising considering fear was pretty much normal for me within my marriage. So I quit the ministry things I was doing and that was the first step into increasingly deep and painful isolation.

Of course even if I had ignored that fear I couldn't keep doing these things with an ever increasing crowd of children.

The isolation is terrible and never addressed. People even ended up isolating themselves from other homeschoolers if there was something about them that was too liberal or what have you.. so you would get folks who stopped coming to the once every two months social events.

The sheer level of work in keeping the house, teaching the children as they get older and more numerous isolates you incredibly. I was completely dependent on having a conversation after church in the 15 minutes before we went home, lol. If I couldn't go to church I would be absolutely distraught because of missing out on this.

[janedoe]

Well...OK. How about organism or heroism. Even better: solipsism.

When language and ideas have become The Enemy rather than tools, it indicates that they are being misused. Ideas are dangerous in that they can be used to either close or open minds. If you choose "opening", they are dangerous only to the closers.

Hi Ambrosia, [kind of long reply, sorry, you got me thinking on this one, actually have been wrestling with this one for some time now--interesting avatar btw, ambrosia, nectar of the gods, well anyway]

OK well how to answer this, let's see, OK well you're right, when Ideas and language become the Enemy rather than 'tools' then yes, you get the other side of the coin, the paranoia and narrow mindedness, Granted agree with you on that one...All 'isms' have great ideas, goals and positive attributes, many of which I still dearly cling to and work toward in solidarity...

and I suppose I could draw a line between the ideas and simply Fanaticism, but even there, I would have to pretend to ignore the roots within many 'isms' that actually do demand a type of 'purging' to occur For those goals and ideas to be Realized, within the ideologies of Every ism that I've had experience with...

now Whether or not that is due to the desire Within individuals and groups, especially when those ideas or struggles are stemming out of a need or desire to shake off oppression or from a consciousness of pain for others, I don't know, that's a good question actually, hmmmm...Hannah mentioned this in what drives revolutions, the social question, which was Misery. But then, revolution doesn't operate in a vacuum and there are Always those Puritanical to the 'ideology' that insist on the purity of the new vision-world so to speak and it winds up being the lining up to the guillotine and it's the fodder of misery that usually gets the neck cut first. [Hoffer gets into this too and I believe Fromm does as well, though it's been a long while since I've read Fromm [Eric Fromm] and I don't feel secure to quote him much on this but it basically then would boil down to is this:

is the puritanical and/or fanaticism that is birthed from the 'isms' within the root of the ism's ideology OR something in human nature that the 'isms' bring out? [will have to ponder this one, because for those who have been oppressed or abused, who know personally what oppression is, especially where RA and victimization is concerned, maybe there is something that attracts and maybe it's in that dynamic of do we strive for justice or is it truly just revenge? [Shklar, Judith]

I think, a Russian poet says it best, prior to his committing suicide, during Stalin's cult of personality purges, that we must remember, or take note of, it was the People, and the New Vision, the nihilists [long before even Lenin took stage, just using this btw as one example, there are Numerous others] that drove this revolution in spirit, and they had Numerous Justifiable reasons to do so--the oppression before was horrid, and the Ideas were truly noble, egalitarianism, equal distribution, free love, women's rights, etc.

"To die is not new in this life, but now it is not new either to live." He also wrote, "There you have the relentless severity that sumps up all the suffering of men! In the same way that the sickle cuts down the heavy ears of corn, the swan's neck is cut off...I have been cruel. I have been fierce, but only to burn with greater fervor...Today I am a foreigner in my own land."

Sergei Yesenin's last verses, before he slit his wrists, deemed the greatest lyrical poet in Russia.

I think it's important to remember that he, along with Thousands of others [and again, not just in this revolution or Social Change driven by force OR by democracy--good examples there the women in Iran who supported the regime change who now protest/are in prison, etc, that was a democratic shift, back in the 70s] but anyway...have said similar and have or did become disillusioned with the 'goals' and the Nightmares that resulted after diligently following and aspiring to some kind of "ISM". Particularly when that ISM has been Applied in society or in groups and the goals go from 'theorizing' to 'application'. There tends to be then where the fanatical purity manifests itself in some cruel ways...

and Paradoxically then that ISM works just like any RELIGION. That has been my experience at least, [actually correction, not just my experience, thousands have testified to the same] I've seen this dynamic from one group or ideology to the next...now Whether that is due to the Reactionary 'crisis' I don't know,

but I find it interesting when one looks back into the history of the ideology itself and reads the theorists or the visionaries who put such Isms forth, that you do see a form of religious zeal or fanaticism. It may not center around God or any Holy Book but the zeal and fanaticism and demand for strict puritanical compliance to the Idea, is there.

And of course there are Always those who will break away and move to a more moderate but those people will be deemed as the 'compromise's' and sad to say, they often do compromise or fade away. So it is here that I see more similarities with different 'gods' with religion and I don't see how they are different really, except that religion has been in power and other 'isms' have filtered into religion [or religion has utilized them to maintain power] or where the 'isms' have succeeded they have only succeeded in far worse tyranny's with some 'despot' or 'demi-god' as god, same religious infrastructures just under a different name, the oppression is just the same and usually far worse.

While I realize that sounds extremely Burke [and I don't concur with Burke on maintaining status quo whatsoever] we can't deny that he has a valid point. And sadly, he was right [Burke vs Paine]

Within all the 'Isms' that I have loyally adhered to I have seen more commonalities with religion than differences, in every single one. Particular where mind controls work...while they may not be As violent [at least in the beginning] they sure hint toward that direction and those that are non-violent tend to align with those in sympathy that are therefore the power hegemony will always win out there--good case in point is Gandhi, everyone raves about Gandhi, how he was so successful,

OK true--if you look at the fruit of throwing off British colonization [though his record in South Africa is not so good, Fredrickson on Black Liberation] -- but what many fail to look at is what was sacrificed, what resulted,

Bangladesh, for example. And of course today with the conflicts in North Pakistan/India and so forth--one colonization thrown over yet another takes it's place--Westerners might not see it this way but numerous people there sure do, so that deserves the question then, does non-violent change simply just work to replace with a mirage of peace? [few like to ask that question--how non-violence can really just be a mask for violence from another source coming from same power--good and evil, good simply a mask for evil?]

So in questioning, working within liberation/or emancipation movements [especially where women's human rights are concerned] I have seen this and in seeing and questioning the abuses and the psychology of abuse in the infrastructure of institutionalized Christianity,

and the similarities there with the techniques in RA and SRA, well let's just say that it leaves me questioning and so I suppose [sorry trying to work out HOW to say this, because I haven't like concluded any solid theory here so bear with me],

I suppose then coming to full circle, is Christianity truly the culprit, or is it human nature? Because while we can say, with valid evidence, no argument from me there, that there are statements within the Holy Book [same with Koran] that if taken literally and well most humans are going to take things literally, are merely a blueprint for tyranny, patriarchy in particular,

however, we can say the same with all other isms because if you look at the purity of the 'ideal' there is always the good and the bad guy, know what I am saying...and there isn't really any difference between a God who says, this is how it will be or else...

and a centralized group that says, this is how it will or Should be or else...[even if they do so carrying flowers and songs of peace--dig in deep within Any ism and you'll see that zeal and puritanical fascist bent there],

and the techniques are the same, break down or de-individualize the individual, because we can't allow criticism, [or within the more so called peaceful isms this is done through the demonetization of 'the other' with anti-progress labels, etc, the effects are the same and the means to exile those that don't 'obey' the platform are the same], what I find extremely interesting is how in all Isms [feminism included when you get into the more separatist or what I'll term the Shalamuth groups--reduce women into men and pedophilia should be normalized and all that other misogynist crap--it truly is like women assimilating into abusive or rather, Borg non-human and definitely non feminine to become sexualized men] but what I find interesting is that in all the Isms, once there is Seriousness, in Applying those,

then the purges begin. The social engineering begins, the lack of tolerance for criticism begins, and the methodology to Enforce compliance, obedience, thought control is more similar, there is a climate of Terror [physical toward psychological--along the lines of the all seeing eye yet it's neighbor against neighbor, the experiment of none other than cult of personality] and so

that leaves me back again--is there truly an Ism that works or is there something in human nature that is inherently flawed? And can we in all honesty just blame religion? I don't think we can,

and if that is the case, then is God the culprit or does the problem lie elsewhere? Which Interesting,

is what religion was based upon, the man and woman, wanting wisdom to do what?

to be Like the 'gods'.

Not God, but gods... [many misinterpret that one] and ironically God never says there are no other 'gods' just that we aren't to worship them, another point many misinterpret. [just throwing that one out there--it's interesting to research, that one]

It gets even more interesting [and I question] that we are made in God's image [Bible says in Our image, After OUR likeness],

but that's another topic and well one that if one really digs into that one, gets rather disturbing. [esp when one looks at the abuses of religion and can't avoid the question, did man create religion to control--or are we an experiment for who knows what in some other realm--and that isn't so far fetched, the early Chinese created hundreds of clay figures, that resemble a military/slaves and mankind today, has been working on cloning humans and some working to create the perfect 'soldier' AND let's not forget, the Japanese, creating robots, female, and the perfect compliant female sex slave holographic s being created....] taking it back to

the garden...the serpent told Eve, you'll be like the 'gods' if you take from this tree of knowledge of good and evil, you'll not die...etc.,

IF, IF just for pondering here, if man created the story of 'God' then, how in B.C. did they imagine that far into the future? IF it's simply a human 'creation',

OR, are we, really like, in the image, of something else? Or someone else or numerous someone else?

And if so, Why?

the wrench in it all, Jesus, of all the 'isms' and 'religions' only Jesus, as forgiveness, the 'god' that laid down his life so that transgressors against 'god' can not just be forgiven but transformed into Perfect Love,

Tree of life--that doesn't deny good and evil, it 'knows good and evil' [in Genesis, after the fall, the Lord God said, they know good and evil like US, or man knows good and evil lest they take of the tree of life and live forever and the two swords, interestingly, before the Crucifixion, Jesus at the Passover mentioned if they had two swords [in Luke] and they said yes and Jesus said It is Enough...

but anyway, perfect love doesn't deny good or evil but elevates above that...the Life [not living but Life that gives life source to others including to enemies in perfect love that requires self [human selfish nature] to die]...that comes from being transformed by the Spirit in Christ Jesus,

not by applying isms or laws or legalisms...the good verses evil fight that we can't, if we are Honest, get away from our part in, especially not our conscience. Where there is good there is Always evil present...so could man alone, have created That? In the B.C. era?

fear and conscience of 'having done wrong', something innate in all humans, [unless they have no conscious]...where does THAT come from?

[I'm questioning a lot of this...God, Isms, the dynamics of RA and the damages to soul and especially to the ability to truly love without suspicion, and I've done the whole 'man created it all to continue the hierarchy of power over victims/weak' but that still doesn't deal

with the issue of conscience. Nor does it answer, why in all the good 'ideals' it always tends to come back full circle, especially for women, emancipation from oppressive hierarchies [domestic/private and social] So...ok then, will leave it at that.]

Jane

[rosa]

Arietty, having to live in fear and loneliness like that is so sad.

I've been thinking about this a lot because of the "is Razing Ruth real" discussion over at Freejinger - is it even possible to tease out which was part of the abuse, and which the religion? Some of the control/isolation techniques are just like any other abusive family situation - isolation, fear of discovery, kids taking responsibility for their parents feelings and spouses taking responsibilities for their spouses feelings...

Do you think the combo of your relationship with your husband and the size of your family would have caused the same isolation no matter what? Or do you think if you'd hooked into the secular homeschooler network instead of the religious one, things would have been a lot better?

[humbletigger]

sierra wrote:

"But atheism was and is only one option - rehabilitating the image God from someone hanging over their heads in condemnation to someone who is on their side is just as valid an endpoint to the process of leaving spiritual abuse. "

Thanks for that.

And to Vickye and the author of the article:

Thanks for posting something that a Christian QFer or potential QF could read and relate to.

I know people don't intend to hurt others, but I have sent one frustrated QFer to this forum hoping she could find some help, only to have her feel further devalued and abused, this time for being a Christian.

Yes, she still does have quite a bit of Christianese in her language, which is probably a trigger for others. I get that.

But it was still a very painful experience for her and it didn't help her on her journey to extricate herself from her abusive situation.

She is just now coming out of denial, and is no position financially to leave, and has very much to lose and very little support in the event she were to leave. And at any rate, I can not see her leaving Christianity but rather leaving an abusive lifestyle/partner behind.

Just contemplating separation is such a huge, huge thing for her. If you know of any web site where she will not have to defend her faith as she sorts it out, I would appreciate a link. I know about Quivering Daughters, but is there any place where moms leaving husbands/doctrines but not leaving the Christian religion can feel safe?

[krwordgazer]

Humbletigger, I know no one here wants people leaving QF to feel their faith threatened; but of course this is a place where there are an abundance of different views.

I suggest "Under Much Grace" as a blog where Cindy, an evangelical Christian and one of the members here, talks about all issues related to spiritual abuse and extremist forms of Christianity.

undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/

And if your friend wants to tallk to other Christian women who have rejected patriarchy, there's the Equality Central Forum:

equalitycentral.com/forum/

Though it is not specifically geared towards spiritual abuse matters, she will find a lot of good discussions, all from a Christian perspective, there.

And of course, any of the FAQs I have written are very Christian friendly and geared towards people in exactly her situation. I suggest she read "Quiverfull and the Bible" and "Does Patriarchy Glorify God?" from this section of the NLQ Blog:

nolongerquivering.com/nlq-faqs/

Hope that helps.

[janedoe]

Humbletigger,

well while I defend my faith to a point, I also question it, and well, hmm, how to say this, maybe because I went from two extremes, from religion to secular ideologies opposed to religion and saw the b.s. and hypocrisy in Both poles and well I just don't care anymore if my questioning or defending upsets the whole group think dynamic...oh well,

and Why, well you brought up something that I, oh, ok not to get triggered and outraged here, but I along with NUMEROUS HUNDREDS OF WOMEN, who fall between the cracks so to speak in Attempting to Leave abusive situations,

is the lack of Real resources and financial support, After leaving, as well as during and the Isolation then, that one has to Really deal with, like, being homeless with kids. Been there, done that, maybe why I am sometimes somewhat callous and rough on the edges...actually I was pregnant at the time, bad enough dealing the the whole red tape b.s. of the system, even worse dealing with the betrayals from other women who scream 'singlehood and anti-God but who'll then say, well, gee, what ya expect, sleeping with the enemy and all', Yea so, [got this a lot seeking assistance from women centers, run by anti-God feminists/lesbians as well as got the whole 'oh you scarlet woman/how dare you divorce from the church folk--right to lifers and all that, and IF ONE IS LOW INCOME, YOU REALLY GET IT, IN ALL DIRECTIONS, AND THEN, LOL, THE HELP, COMES FROM GUESS WHO? THE PIMPS, STRIP BARS, AND MEN...yea, go figure...well shucks but anyway [and oh, the whole God will be there, we'll pray and all yea, works, don't pay BILLS though, probably why I did question and still Do question God about THESE REALITIES...and I see more women in this same boat--see bottom].

you sort of get a street gut feel for just how full of shit people are. OK end of rant,

OK well, I want to give you two links for her, to one, deal with the issues of Faith, and not just 'doctrine' ok but also, from Two women, who Did leave abusive situations, are still strong Christians and who KNOW the financial and lack of support difficulties, because she's going to need Both, especially in today's economy. [if she has family and networks that helps, the system, depends on the state and well, LOL, do I really want to go there? NOT, probably not, housing alone esp with many children, just for one parent-one child, a four year wait list, yea, it's just like irritating...but now, make sure our gov includes Viagra on insurance for men...arrrrrgh],

submissiontyranny.blogspot.com/

and

eaandfaith.blogspot.com/

I know Waneta [submission tyranny] knows numerous resources as well as, She's been there...and she is one I really have a lot of respect for because she's just really honest and doesn't just sell you the religious cliche lines.

I will say, well, many Here will have far better advice in regards to leaving the QF, where those dynamics are concerned and the obstacles such as legal and finances, I"m sure the Take Heart Project will and do cover those, so she really Should turn to Vickie for help there.

AS for leaving abuse, like I assist individual women leaving, or who have left, who are low income [and women finishing prison sentences--a few of those] and so I speak more from those experiences and many are Christian, many are not and I don't ask really--because well,

it really don't matter, because when there is children and divorce and legalities and housing [lack of] and food and jobs, it don't matter, really, what one believes, this is where Women, if they are low income and without Support,

find that they are the same...and IF there are not Programs within the Areas [other than phone numbers where you go place to place and it's pass the buck till you run out of gas or bus tokens and all that mess], then well, she finds herself holding it alone,

and well, yea, faith in God, helps but it's not like this magic wand--AND if there has been abuse/spiritual abuse, Then she Really is going to need the Spiritual help, AMONG CHRISTIAN WOMEN, and that is where it gets really tough. This is why many women return [referring to mainstream churches here] To yes, abusive situations,

and don't think it's not 'set' up that way, because it sure is. So, let me offer you this,

1. she needs to get in touch with all the domestic shelters in her area, get documentation, history, support through Those channels first, because those Will be a resource for her, if anything, support.

2. depending on the situ, legal aid, if there is one in area [not the best though] and being that it's spiritual abuse, I'd recommend suggesting a child advocate, though--you know, let me give you This website too because now she does work with the Dorcas project and they work with the legal aspects [custody included],
womansubmit.blogspot.com/

3. housing, tell her to start applying a.s.a.p. This is the toughest, because it's so limited, so the sooner she applies for these helps the better, again, this will depend on Where she's at, this may seem a bit soon but you know, leaving, it's not the getting to place To leave so much as it's the what the hell do you do Once you left, and if being a wife-full time mother with maybe no job skills, etc., the More she gets help with these things the better off for her and the children.

4. this is why support from a shelter is needed, if phone contact, etc., also, tell her, to get numbers [jot them down] of Any or All self-sufficiency women centers, like for job training, etc., any day shelters, etc., Why? Because these women have Been there and know so it's not like she's just going to get, yea well God says it's ok to leave but now like we have not a Clue to the Reality out there--and you know if a woman returns well then she just must like abuse and all that other garbage they throw at ya/and at her, and the More support she has [realistic support from those who have actually Been there] and not just doctrine, the better off she'll be AND the better she'll be equipped to deal with the children because it IS hard on them.

Now I am sharing this, because of your mentioning the finances, etc. See I am right now helping a woman who left [well he kicked her out, long story] an emotionally abusive marriage, she has three kids, is Homeless, since February. 33 years old, all she knows is being married and being a wife-mother...no job skills, married at 15, so yea,

not a whole hell of a lot out there, and it's bad, it's really bad and if a woman doesn't have family or any support she can go to, it's living hell, not going to lie to you. And this is the ONE Thing, that just irks me to NO end, about So many Christians who yes, Do not support patriarchy, etc., that's all great and all,

but, this is Real Life and it's one thing to say yea yea leave and God will help you...it's another, to be leaving, a man on your back [maybe one that may kill you], no support, Thinking God is punishing you, winding up homeless or worse [and I have walked this and this is why, yea, I have bad karma marks cuzz I'm kind of a biatch...don't care either--I see it all the time, and well, the joys of internet la la land],

so she's kind of in a tough spot, yea she needs to Faith support, she also needs, IF she's not in the Financial position or has the Support of family, the Resources support, and I'll warn you, many of them are NOT sympathetic to mothers or to Christian women. Some not to 'het' women, period...

and because it's getting so bad right now [like shelters full and drawing straws and food banks cutting or turning people away, and women get the shaft there too--and it's NOT like one would think it's not this, oh you're a widow or divorced mom so lets help, don't work like that, well not in the cities anyway.

So, my point being, she Does need Christian support but she needs Christian support that doesn't live in a frickin utopic bubble...and hey, many do, and while I KNOW this will piss a lot of people off I'll say it,

because too many women wind up listening to a lot of advice but when Push comes to shove, there is little help, and IF there is spiritual abuse [or like me past child abuse and religious warping] then all that garbage comes in like a flood and they'll either Wind up going back,

or getting hooked up with another abuser. And you do meet them in churches, predators who prey on divorced women who Especially are in financial need--how do I know this,

my second daughter, father I met in church...never has been involved, a real jerk. Yea, real nice--but because I too, had this naive belief and listened to So many who said, well God bless and God will take care of you and blah blah blah...two years on streets [off and on, I DID work, daycare, either daycare or rent], and well you start to get a tad smart and wake up.

I still yes, believe in God, in Jesus, just not in all the rhetoric and cliches and well, while yes, the support for women Spiritually speaking is good--it's NOT enough, when a woman, who has little to no support, is attempting to Leave an abuser, she needs a lot more,

than just an online group, that says, yea those pastors are wrong and -or Christianity sucks or what have you...

what she needs right now, is some good, solid steps to leaving, and being able to live and function, keeping her sanity [it's tough] with as much Love and Support she can get.

And I think, no, I know, that is what Jesus would want for her....

if you need any resources/or research for them, in her state, let me know, I'll do what I can.

Jane

[arietty]

Apr 14, 2010 10:02:13 GMT -5 rosa said:

Arietty, having to live in fear and loneliness like that is so sad.

I've been thinking about this a lot because of the "is Razing Ruth real" discussion over at Freejinger - is it even possible to tease out which was part of the abuse, and which the religion? Some of the control/isolation techniques are just like any other abusive family situation - isolation, fear of discovery, kids taking responsibility for their parents feelings and spouses taking responsibilities for their spouses feelings...

Do you think the combo of your relationship with your husband and the size of your family would have caused the same isolation no matter what? Or do you think if you'd hooked into the secular homeschooler network instead of the religious one, things would have been a lot better?

Absolutely. I was already isolated because my husband made making friends very difficult for a million reasons.. and when you are in an abusive relationship you expend a lot of energy keeping things nice, forming relationships, real ones, can be difficult.

What QF theology did for me was to gild the cage. Suddenly my isolation was anointed, I was putting my homeschooling commitments first, I was avoiding negative influences.. blah blah.

[rosa]

I sort of thought that. It seemed like, with the people for whom Ruth's story didn't ring true (on the Free Jinger board) it was partly that they had a similar religious background but without the hyper-controlling abusive parent, so their experiences were a lot different.

Where for a person coming out of an abusive or addictive family, I think a lot of it would look very familiar (and a lot of what you've shared, and a lot of what Journey has shared) and it's just that the language that was used is unfamiliar, and sometimes that the religious rules made the abused spouse feel even more stuck.

[dangermom]

I'm really glad to see you writing these articles from a religious perspective and using language the way you are. I think this one was quite well-done. Hope some people find it helpful...


I've been thinking a little lately that I'd like to see someone write a book from this perspective about the Schatz case--directed toward evangelical people, in the right 'language,' that talks about how they got into the TTUAC stuff and what happened because of it. Preferably with the Schatz' cooperation and (remorse-laden, one hopes) narrative, to sell in Christian bookstores. The proceeds could go to an organization, or to the girls' college funds, or something...

I do have an acquaintance who is writing a research article on the case from a secular POV, for the purpose of both exposing who the Pearls are and clarifying that not all homeschoolers are isolated child abusers. I think this is also going to be very valuable, but I'd like to see a book for the evangelical community, and perhaps one for a wider market as well.

[Sierra]

Apr 14, 2010 16:38:40 GMT -5 krwordgazer said:

Humbletigger, I know no one here wants people leaving QF to feel their faith threatened; but of course this is a place where there are an abundance of different views.

I think one of the main difficulties in a community like this one is striking a balance between healing ourselves and helping others. The two processes don't work together well. Healing is an ugly, angry, weepy, sensitive business. Helping requires patience and a thick skin. Raging against the injustice of a malignant tumor does not help a surgeon remove it, but it's a perfectly natural response.

[zoeygirl]

Apr 14, 2010 15:48:17 GMT -5 humbletigger said:

Just contemplating separation is such a huge, huge thing for her. If you know of any web site where she will not have to defend her faith as she sorts it out, I would appreciate a link. I know about Quivering Daughters, but is there any place where moms leaving husbands/doctrines but not leaving the Christian religion can feel safe?

humbletigger, I would also suggest www.forums.our-place-online.net. This is a support forum for women who are still in or are coming out of abusive relationships. The main board is secular, and the people (mostly women) are respectful of each other's religious beliefs, but there is also a Religion/Spirituality subforum that is populated by women (like myself) who had to navigate their way out of abusive marriages in the context of conservative/fundamentalist Christianity. We've been there, done that, and would love to have your friend visit. I believe she will have to register to view the Religion forum, but if she just wants to lurk for a while that's fine. And heck, we all were speaking Christianese when we first showed up there, too, so no worries! We get it!

[Vyckie D. Garrison]

Apr 14, 2010 15:48:17 GMT -5 humbletigger said:

Thanks for posting something that a Christian QFer or potential QF could read and relate to.

I know people don't intend to hurt others, but I have sent one frustrated QFer to this forum hoping she could find some help, only to have her feel further devalued and abused, this time for being a Christian.

[snip]

Just contemplating separation is such a huge, huge thing for her. If you know of any web site where she will not have to defend her faith as she sorts it out, I would appreciate a link. I know about Quivering Daughters, but is there any place where moms leaving husbands/doctrines but not leaving the Christian religion can feel safe?

humbletigger ~ I am so sorry to hear this.

I try to keep the No Longer Quivering blog "friendly" ~ or at least not terribly threatening to Christian QFers ~ but unfortunately, here on the forum, there have been some discussions which are not as considerate and sensitive as they could be ~ for all the reasons Sierra already explained.

I'm currently working on updating the Take Heart Project website ~ which I am hoping will have a very safe and supportive "feel" to QFers. This series "Testing the Spirit of Quiverfull" by KR is very much in line with the sort of information which I want to feature at THP ~ along with lots of practical info. and resources.

Since the work we're doing here is still relatively new, we're really in the beginning stages of processing and discovering how best to reach out and be supportive ~ hopefully, we'll do a better job of it as we go along.

[Ex-Adriel]

re: the unfriendly to Christians vibe...

And here I was lurking until a few days ago because I was afraid I'd get snubbed by steadfast Christians (or at least preached to) for admitting that I think I've lost my faith!



I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly not in any position to feel judgmental or exclusive about anyone's religious choices. I can't even figure my own out!

To add even another perspective, although I don't practice now, scripture and religious interpretation is the basic language of my childhood - it's my native tongue (as much baggage as there may be with it) and I understand it implicity and totally. It's a comfort and a help to see these ideas hashed out in my language. (As freaked out as that makes me feel...)

[janedoe]

Well, for me,

here's the thing, I think, faith, is something that isn't doctrine, or religion, or this 'mental assent' to because we are taught/or read, if we don't, off to God's BBQ we go.

And I don't think, no matter How much scripture we give, anyone comes to know God through that--

I think Questioning, is actually, really what God wants, at least, in my experience, because it's stripping away all the religion and fear and mental assent and getting into that light and well,

can I just be frank, dumping all the bullshit--and just saying, you know Jesus, are you Real or what? Seriously...

and I don't know, but for me, I had to Get to that place, and it WAS scary, because every scripture and FEAR was Screaming at me...like don't you Dare question that, or you're stepping into the enemy's territory,

what I didn't realize, is this was where God was leading me...literally, to pull and strip all the LIES away and get me to the place where I was naked [spiritually] before Him and all of it,

the doubts, the hate [oh yes, I Hated God] and the anger and the no trust and All the questions,

that the religious or Christians, just weren't Doing it for me anymore...I had seen too much abuse, been exposed to too many other theories and knowledge and well, I just couldn't accept from a mind knowing,

and that was it really, my Faith, had always been based, on what my mind said based on FEAR. FEAR of HELL. And a lot of other things,

my belief/struggle was this, was God something man made up, to have control over the masses, which was what Marx and numerous others have said. And the thing is, it's Partly true, because men and women Have used God, to control the masses. No denying that--so the cynics out there have good valid points,

that and where's the proof?

But then, I also knew, that all the knowledge and philosophy and science didn't Answer a lot of questions for me NOR did THEY have PROOF that there ISN'T a GOD either, why I have more respect for the agnostics...they simply put it all in one big ? box. And I think, that if one doesn't believe, makes more Logical sense.

That and the same abuses, same evils if not some worse, have been done in science, philosophical backings of ideologies and so forth so like, well, then it was the question of Evil, and I couldn't get away from that one so easily...

so, yea I deconstructed, but for me, there was too many Para-normal things happening that I Couldn't just explain away with science, nor philosophy or reasoning...NOR could I just ignore them either,

or just chaulk it up to some emotional state, because they were things OUTSIDE of myself, OUTSIDE of any church, and well, down right

scary.

Really scary, and a few of those and it was like, OK well I kind of would like to go Back to where I didn't see into that realm and where things were a bit more simple--

then, the Bible started connecting for me, and not in anyway it had before, in fact, not in any way that I hear many Christians refer to it--Paul says this, the letter kills, it's the Spirit,

it's a spiritual thing, not some mental assent BUT once that spiritual is believed/once experienced Then, the world of matter, it's not so separate anymore, why I still read and study science and I see God more in Science than not. Be it physics or physical or geology or ecology, I see it, and now when I read the Bible I Really see it, all over the place,

but I have asked, why some don't see it. Is it just me? Well, what it if Is just me? It works, so, like, why not? But if it isn't just me,

then why don't many see it, and it was one day asking, ok God what really is Faith because like, I know all these scriptures but faith, how, what, why or how can I live, suffer, die and not really know,

and it never dawned on me, but Faith is the 'substance' [like matter] of things HOPED for,

not seen, not known, but HOPED for, btw I asked God this after reading Nietzsche, where he says, faith is just the denying of truth.

I like Nietzsche actually, I understand him and nihilism [because I have that dark side] but that blew me away, to really get that,

but I didn't get that, until I finally just one day, had had Enough of the promises with scripture from well meaning people, about God will do this in your heart/life or God will heal this--what I call the optimist 'sugar' that really does more to Destroy faith and keep us from coming to the light--like religion and law/trying to be 'goooood' does, that whole LIE right there,

sugar has no water btw, which hmmm, honey does. [Jesus said He gives Living Water, the problem with optimism in Christianity, it's sugar, has no water, why alone it will eventually leave on unbelieving and full of doubt and they'll say, to hell with this].

I think, one has to come to God and just be honest and say, you know, I think this whole religion thing is bunk...ask, ask, ask...

but then, I asked one day, why don't some see it?

Well, I don't know, but maybe, some just don't WANT to see it, maybe, it's not really about whether or not there is a God or not,

but, whether or not, one wants to come, to a full naked disclosure of all the demons and dark within themselves and we All have it,

just because we haven't had those right buttons pushed via circumstances, we are All capable of some horrid evil things. [contrary to the myths many hold dear that it's only 'those people']

maybe for many it's really about, moral absolute...then, well, Ironically, that is Exactly the whole origin, of the whole thing in the first place, isn't it?

So to me, I think, that this whole denial of God, may not be so much the importance of denying or disproving God, but more of the,

let's disprove any moral absolute therefore, I can be o.k. with MY morality,

and That would be fine, I guess,

but then, how many people in the world? What happens, when everyone just lives by their 'own morality'? What about those victimized by those stronger? [and this is what we Do see in the world today and always]...the whole thing with relativism

sure, it's Great, for those not being abused by it.

For those who are [and no surprise it's mostly women and children and hated ethnic groups],

it's not such an utopia.

Evolution? Maybe...but, then, what about all the ancient writings, Samaria, Mayan, Egypt, Easter Island, do we just Ignore those?

And then, there is Prophecy, not just modern day [latter days/from Catholic-Protestant on] but what about Ancient prophecies from Babylon [book of Daniel] and the Mayan and the Egyptian and the Samarian, what about all the archeological findings [which IS a science, any who say it isn't, then uh, go discredit the universities that Teach archeology and forensics, etc],

with hieroglyphics of UFOs in early B.C. Just Coincidence? What about the statutes of Huge God like or Angel like beings with the human size women in Egypt, also B.C., and the both Biblical and Book of Enoch, that talks about this, the Sons of God who had relations with human women [during days/prior to Noah], just coincidence?

What about the similarities of human sacrifices in all ancient religions to the 'gods' and 'goddess's' that required blood--that is Also, tied into the whole Hierarchy of another heavenly government, in ancient beliefs, that were

WORLDS APART? How to explain Those similarities? Just coincidence?

Last but not least, the Personhood of Jesus Christ, believe it or not, we know, Historically, He existed, was crucified, and buried. Too many records,

so, then the question Really is, if one believes, that Jesus Christ was who He said He was,

or He wasn't, He was just some man who was a teacher...

so, that's up to the individual. The issue I think, is that Too many, are or have try to find Jesus and God in

church, in religion, in legalism, in doing all the right things, etc.

But is that spirit and in truth? Truth, is just that, Truth,

and I think, that is what the real journey lies, that really comes from the Desire in one's heart, Do they really want to know God as HE is, no matter WHAT,

or do they not?

NOT by what OTHER'S SAY HE IS, OR even what the Bible says, Jesus said, the Holy Spirit will lead you into all TRUTH,

not, the Bible.

And I think, that's a huge part of the problem, at least, it was for me. So, I think, the getting to the place where one says,

you know, I just don't know if I believe really,

is actually, Just what one needs to be, because THAT is being TRUTHFUL,

in Spirit and in Truth...

not in saying all the right things because it's Expected of us, by either man or God.

My experience anyway...and I am glad, even if, it meant, going through some really dark times and yea, seeing the dark within my own soul, that I stopped being afraid,

and just told God, I don't believe in you, why should I, because of this, this, that...what blew me away, is that HE answered,

and NOTHING, no matter how horrible it gets [and it's gotten that horrible] can convince me now, that He isn't real--though, I may not always Like Him.

That's another issue, another time...and, this is just something, that one Can't do for someone else, each must find out or not...that's their right and choice, love allows for that, if not, then we'd be slaves,

and I've asked That question of God a lot too, is this just some experiment, to weed out those who'll be good slaves and those who won't, He don't want slaves though--but it sure can seem that way. Neutrinos, you know, we all have them, they are from outer space--interesting thing in the Bible, about HOW the tabernacle and the VEIL was made,

and the, air and space dimensions that we KNOW of, as of yet, Both, count up to,

the number 10.

One pillar, Zero, for Eternity...

coincidence?

Jane

[janedoe]

just a quick clarification-correction to the above, when I mention the Sons of God, that refers to the angels, that was to mean that they were There during, not that they created us, etc. There are theories out there suggesting such, I don't concur with them...

thought I should correct that from where I am coming from on that one. I do read up on the other theories though...both ancient and prophetic, as well as scientific findings, especially in space. Just always been interested in those sorts of topics.

Jane

[humbletigger]

Ladies,

Thank you so much for all the links and heartfelt words! I appreciate it very much. I will share the links with my gf, and check them out myself.

Yes, healing is messy business. I suffer from PTSD. I totally get how certain language/tone/approach in a religious person's post could set someone off.

I just feel so much symapthy for my friend. Everything she has ever believed in and tried to accomplish in her life is crashing down around her. She is facing the truth that her husband is abusive, and that is HARD! She built her whole life around this vision of the Christian family/home. It's going to be a rough journey for her ahead, no two ways about it.