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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 14:38:20 GMT -5
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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 14:13:40 GMT -5
Oh. My. God. I am reading the list of courtship questions discussed in the post Erika linked: yoursacredcalling.com/blog/courtship-questions-for-potential-suitors/I, um... Wow. Speechless. For example: "# Our family subscribes to the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Shorter and Larger Catechisms as our statement of faith. To what creed or confession do you subscribe? Do you take issue with any part of the Westminster Standards? If so, what? # We are members of the CPC – a reformed Presbyterian denomination. Please read through the Constitution and Form of Church Government I sent earlier and let me know if you disagree with any part of these documents." And it goes on and on...and on...
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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 13:55:53 GMT -5
Actually, the clipping toenails/helping with grooming seems much more unhealthy to me than a backrub... but that of course is without the "required" parts. I guess when my family is visiting together after a day, there are often backrubs being given, not spa-like shirtless backrubs but just some human touch and connection and such. So I think there's probably a difference of imagining what's involved in these backrubs but I don't see anything wrong in spontaneous backrubs between an adult child and parent, it just seems here though that there is entitlement and lack of reciprocation, plus creepy clipping toenails and such. Plus apparently she can't say no. And connecting it explicitly to "preparation for marriage" is SUPER CREEPY. I'm 100% with jemand on this one. Backrubs were normal in my family. We drove around a lot. We got tense. There was no mood lighting or massage oil involved, but we helped each other get the kinks out of our shoulders. The toenails bit, though... WTF! Barring an actual disability, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that any man who doesn't clip his own damn toenails does not deserve a wife! The toenail thing sorta reminds me of Mad Men, which is not exactly my favorite show, but I do watch it sometimes... And I remember one episode in which Joan's husband comes home from work after, I dunno, failing to receive his license to practice surgery (or something like that). And she says (in a completely non-sexual way, I have to point out), "Go lie on the bed, and I'll help you get those clothes off so you can get into your pajamas." I remember thinking, "really, wtf??? The man had a disappointing day, and now he can't change on his own prior to bedtime???" Toenail clipping and other such help with grooming seems on a similar scale to me. It's definitely icky for an adult daughter (or, frankly, a minor daughter too) to be doing that for her father.
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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 8:27:11 GMT -5
Sierra: I'm interested in understanding more about how Pearl didn't get crushed under the weight of all that dogma. Sometimes, I think there are just...people who can live gracefully in the midst of an oppressive system. And I am not one of them, and I think they are few and far between, and almost saintly... But I have known one or two. I had a similar friend--Elise, who died of old age at 85 a few years back. Yes, isn't it funny, I have observed that myself. Sometimes I think they just don't take everything on board as a personal crusade either in favor or to react against like I am wont to do. Stuff rolls off them like water off a duck's back. Well my back is rather porous.. Yeah, I'm the same way.
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Post by km on Aug 28, 2010 8:21:27 GMT -5
These days, with all of the stupid controversy about that stupid mosque in NYC, Muslim women who wear burquas or hijab are getting harassed and threatened. I loved the blog where the husband spewed anti-Muslim hatred and in another entry, the wife discussed why she covered her head. Irony, no? (BTW, I'm certainly not making a value judgment about what women WEAR when they practice their respective religions). Kind of a cute anecdote my mom told me yesterday. She's a fifth grade public school teacher in a district with many Muslim students whose families have recently moved here from various Arab countries. She overheard a conversation between two Muslim boys yesterday: Boy #1: "Does your mother wear hijab?" Boy #2: "No, she believes it is a symbol of oppression." Boy #1: "What do you mean?" Boy #2: "She believes it is something men force their wives to do." I have no bone in the hijab dispute, not being a Muslim, and I certainly think many women wear it in opposition to various kinds of Western cultural hegemony, but... I thought this conversation was priceless.
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:49:21 GMT -5
btw my QF friends with the massive debt used to preach that all christians should be debt free, about 20 years ago. They read all those 70's christian books about being debt free and would be quite scathing towards people in the church taking out loans for anything. Now, much to my complete disbelief, they are scathing about people not investing and just paying off their houses because this is like the middle guy in the talents parable who returned the money without losing or gaining anything. How they can be scathing when in such monumental debt is beyond me, it's not like this plan is actually working. The mom is besides herself with anxiety over their finances yet still looks down on those not following similar plans! My QF friends go through phases like this too! Used to be quite scathing about headcoverings. Called them "beanies." Now they all cover!
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:47:54 GMT -5
Just like there are many people who want to live in a rural areas, and use some good work ethics to live off their land, or have a home business. It is just their choice! Not all of us enjoy waking up for the 9-5 jobs...Not all of us are into following the crowds..Does this make sense? There was also this bit about how those of us working 9-5 jobs are sheep. I dunno... I work 9-5 out of necessity, though it sure must be nice to have the luxury of sleeping in all week! I don't really consider having-to-work a choice having to do with finding myself or being who I am... What do I know anyway? I'm too busy following the herd and keeping up with the Joneses and planning blow job competitions for my potential-future-children (who are unlikely to exist anyway, since I have a deformed uterus and all...)... It's just... Shelly, I've liked many of your posts. I've got nothing against you, but damned if this rant of yours didn't rub me the wrong way. I think you threw a lot of really offensive stereotypes out at a lot of people here, for a post that was meant to decry stereotypes in the first place. ETA: And, also... It's not really reading between the lines here. It's reading what the lines themselves say.
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:32:46 GMT -5
Anyway.. just to say not everyone is the Duggars who seem to have hard work, luck, personality and some smarts on their side as well as their army of unpaid workers. And a telegenic family...
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:26:20 GMT -5
Yes, it is definitely the mentality. QF women are taught that they have no rights and they talk a lot about giving up their entitlement mentality. I remember reading on one blog how a woman said that what finally put her on her weight loss track was freeing herself from her entitlement mentality. When she stopped thinking she deserved the food, she stopped eating the way that had made her fat. See, I don't like entitlement much, but this would not be how I think about entitlement.... Entitlement has more to do with being born with a silver spoon in your mouth, I think.... And extreme privilege. Eating isn't entitlement. It's necessary for survival.
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:20:55 GMT -5
Homeschool advocates love to suck mothers into an Us vs Them mindset. If you are insecure about your own parenting there's no quicker way to feel better about it than to buy into this kind of thinking. Do XYZ you are a good, caring parent. Fail to do XYZ and you should have bought a box of condoms (actually this is extreme even for homeschool rhetoric). Good, loving parenting can happen with ALL schooling choices, and poor parenting can happen with all schooling choices too. One thing I realized after sending mine to school was that the whole idea that the more hours you spend with them the better parent you are is quite silly. It's not all about quantity. Schools can offer a lot to a family and you can work with and be a part of a school community as a family. After years of observation as well as personal experience my conclusion is that very few people can homeschool a large family to a good, college bound standard for the high school years. I have know families that DID do this and they were highly educated, academic, high energy and financially stable, generally the kind of super-families that will do really well in any setting. At this point I could list you 20 things off the top of my head that my children are learning in school that would take me a very long time to learn myself to a standard to be able to teach them. Astronomy (with field tours), Geology, way-past-Algebra math, advanced French, history of the Russian Revolution.. well I won't list all 20 but you get the idea. And no it is NOT the same to be reading some chapter in an Abeka book about these things, you can't compare it to the depth of knowledge of a teacher passionate about these topics. So, yes I am making a very good choice for my children to have them in school. If I thought one of them really needed to be homeschooled I would make that choice too. And here's the thing I've found-- many people are very tolerant and encouraging of different schooling choices and parenting styles, it comes easy to those outside of the homeschooling mindset to see that every family is different and that choices aren't automatically good or evil. I'm tired of hearing my QF friend disdain public school when her teenagers can not do long division and are barely literate. I think this is spot-on. I too have a QF friend like this...
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:19:39 GMT -5
Oh, and Hopewell. Here is a link to the website that is the group and couple whom my parents were intimately involved with. They are super, uber radical. But what is interesting is that they have a family owned business (lawn care) and on a nightly basis their 23 year old daughter is required to give dad back rubs, clip his toenails, and help with his grooming as a way to "prepare" her for marriage. Its pretty hard to sift through all of her articles, but its well worth it if you want to read some hard-core homeschool p*&n. www.chef-missouri.com (if that doesn't work, try .org at the end. or have vyckie contact me...) Does anyone see anything unhealthy about an adult daughter giving her middle-aged dad a backrub? !!!!! Holy smokes! Very much so.
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:12:14 GMT -5
Sierra: I'm interested in understanding more about how Pearl didn't get crushed under the weight of all that dogma. Sometimes, I think there are just...people who can live gracefully in the midst of an oppressive system. And I am not one of them, and I think they are few and far between, and almost saintly... But I have known one or two. I had a similar friend--Elise, who died of old age at 85 a few years back.
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:08:33 GMT -5
P.S., Hopewell, I loved your post, especially the whole bit about people making organic goat's milk soap... You crack me up. Sorry I've been a bit of a downer in your thread. If there's one thing that gets me upset, it's class bullshit.... And the assumption that people who don't have resources don't have resources because they're irresponsible and living beyond their means and buying ginormous houses and luxury cars on credit...
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 22:00:53 GMT -5
ShellyC: Wow... Eh... I mean, I'm not a parent, so the homeschooling thing kinda got past me, though I certainly understand the problems with it... But what didn't? The whole "keeping up with the Joneses business" and the thing about the nicest "houses and cars"? The whole "God gives to me in non-coincidental ways, He provides for all of our needs..."
This tells me that you haven't had to worry about things like, oh, going into debt in order to put food on the table or cover housing/shelter. Please do not go on about "keeping up with the Joneses" when, from where I stand??? I don't fucking know anyone middle class anymore, and I live in a middle class urban area. Everyone I know has to have two or three jobs in order to eat. In order to pay the bills.
I mean, you know, I'm glad for you, that God gives to you without reservation and in ways that couldn't possibly be coincidence...? In the meantime, I'm too busy keeping up with the Joneses--I mean, trying to pay for food... But that's great that God blesses those who are truly faithful--as opposed to ungrateful ingrates like most of us.
Look, yay for you that you didn't have to go into debt for anything...ever. Maybe you think lower class girls like me shouldn't go to college in the first place. I mean, debt's the only way to do it. Or maybe, by God, I should've found a wealthy doctor or corporate lawyer to marry...
There's been some definite...class-culture shock going on for me around here lately. I mean, you're a Christian and all??? How about some bloody compassion for the fact that times are brutally hard for many of us right now.
But what do I know, really? I'm too busy keeping up with the Joneses--I mean, earning $10 an hour without benefits even though I hold two advanced degrees from elite universities (and an undergrad degree from an elite school too, damnit). But hey.... I'm just happy I didn't complete the PhD. I know English PhDs Also from Elite Schools who work at Starbucks, so... In any case, welcome to America, eh? Where the whole "meritocracy" bullshit isn't even believable anymore...even for those of us who fought to get through the hoops.
God bless America, that's all I got.
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 17:14:59 GMT -5
You know, ShellyC... Most of us can't afford not to have any debt. You are lucky that you have enough resources not to have any. And you are in the minority, even here in the so-called first world.
Have your own convictions all you want, but... That long post felt awfully shaming on my end...
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Post by km on Aug 27, 2010 16:50:31 GMT -5
Coming out of a lot of abuse and Christian culture, I get this All. The. Time. Along with "If you don't forgive, God won't forgive you" and "I just care about you and what you to be healed so that's why I want you to forgive" (how forcing forgiveness equates to healing I don't know.) It's something that that I've been working about writing on my own blog - I tend to see this trend in a lot of Christian circles that you can do just about anything - bully, abuse, rape, murder, anything - but if you have anger, bitterness, or unforgiveness toward someone who did those things; nope sorry, all hope is lost for you. It's a way of dealing with problems by shoving it under the rug instead of actually working to clean it. "If all the victims would just shut up, it would be peaceful!" rather than calling out the behavior of those who are actually doing the wrongdoing. It's easier to get silence from those who are already vulnerable than it is to confront those that do horrific things to others. Frankly, for me, I can't distinguish forgiveness from relinquishing my power to those who harmed me. Being bitter and unforgiving is actually me finally starting to blame those who harmed me, instead of continuing to pile the blame on myself. Huh, interesting. This is the first time I've ever thought about it in this way exactly. It's the Tone Argument in Christian-speak. Or, in other words... In social activist circles, the Tone Argument happens, for example, when a white person gets all uncomfortable when hearing a black person express anger about racist treatment. Along the lines of, "Why do you have to be so angry about this??? I can't really talk to you about this unless you calm down, etc." So, instead of dealing with the issue at hand, the more privileged person (in this case) can't deal with the other's emotion around the topic and shuts that person down. It seems like we're all saying that "forgiveness" can also function in this way, so as to silence the victim and protect the comfort of the non-victim.
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Post by km on Aug 26, 2010 17:05:36 GMT -5
Sierra: When I noticed your bio in the previous installment, I was shocked that you'd only been out since 2006. That's...not that long ago. It's kind of awe-inspiring, how much you've accomplished since then. Thanks for sharing all of this.
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Post by km on Aug 26, 2010 17:02:35 GMT -5
When I read your story, I'm constantly relieved to know that you're here with us now. However, I had to laugh when I read the description of Jonathan: "He was part of the “youth group” simply because he inserted himself there, despite the fact that he was in his early twenties." Every youth group that I've encountered has had a Jonathan or two! Me too, for all of this. And the one's I've known (or known about) have actually been named Jonathan....
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Post by km on Aug 26, 2010 16:40:18 GMT -5
I think "forgiveness" is far too often used as a big stick to beat people who have been mistreated and abused over the head.
And, also? If I were to think through some kind of "theology of forgiveness"? I'm damned sure it wouldn't involve forgetting and pretending like the whole thing never happened.
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Post by km on Aug 26, 2010 16:37:11 GMT -5
Well I don't know about the not-so-favorable thing (and would rather not, so don't explain on my account!) but she is eminently quotable: Huh? Nothing to explain. Just the thing about no longer quivering.
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Post by km on Aug 25, 2010 19:13:30 GMT -5
I totally understand what you mean, km. I think it has more to do with attitude than acutal money, though. While I wouldn't go out and spend $200 on a handbag, I do give myself "permission" to relax , to read books I enjoy even if those books come from the library, and to get myself little luxuries as I can afford them, such as nice makeup or even a shopping "spree" at Goodwill. In the darkest days of my fundamentalism, even things like shaving my legs or washing my hair seemed frivolous. Reading something other than "spiritual" books was just waste of time. We were supposed to "redeem the time" so relaxation was pretty much out unless we were actually sleeping. So, for me, it's more about being able to respect my own needs, time, and feelings, rather than being able to buy myself stuff. Seems like a lot of the QF/fundamentalist women I knew didn't even give themselves permission to eat food they liked - they either make their husband's favorite food, or they made kid food. Some of them had hairstyles they didn't like because "it's easier with the kids." Although this might be more of a general "mom thing" than a specifically "QF thing, " having a bunch of kids certainly didn't help, I'm sure. This makes sense.
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Post by km on Aug 25, 2010 16:52:37 GMT -5
Ah, yes, old Van Til. That rings a bell. The only objective "knowable" reality that you can hang your hat on exists between Genesis and Revelation. The object you just tripped over, and the bad x-ray result afterwards, may or may not exist because nothing outside of Scripture is really, really, real. In my household we held to post-suppositorial apologetics: we were really anal about everything. Jill This made me laugh out loud.
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Post by km on Aug 25, 2010 16:50:52 GMT -5
Really? Really??? People say this often? Wow... I mean, I expect there's often a subtext of "white Anglo-Saxon girls are always more beautiful than non-white girls" when people say this. I'm sort of shocked that people actually say this... Oh that was a common one. That loving Jesus makes you beautiful. And not only are Christian girls prettier; Christian marriages are happier; Christian children are better behaved; Christians are smarter; Christians are happier in general; Christian athletes are better athletes (and the only ones you should root for); Christians have more fun, and on and on and on in this vain. And because of all of these things, all non-Christians (which means all non-Evangelicals including mainline Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox and most Lutherans) wish that they had the mysterious thing that Christians have that makes them so visibly superior (which is of course Jesus). Therefore, you must witness to them because they are looking at your perfect happy life and wishing to be like you--they just need told how to do it. As I am sure you can conclude, all of this leads to an immense pressure to appear, if not be, perfect at all times in all ways. Hmm... Very interesting. There are, of course, Catholic evangelicals, as I'm sure you know. Erik Prince, founder of the Corporation Formerly Known as Blackwater and Dominionist leader, converted to Catholicism as an adult. Not that all Catholic evangelicals are like him, of course, but he's one very high profile name.
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Post by km on Aug 25, 2010 16:44:34 GMT -5
Jill, I'm going to assume that you're the Jill Barrett that was quoted here (not so favorably) a month or so ago... I'm glad you're here! She quoted herself-in-the-past not so favorably recently, in fact.
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Post by km on Aug 25, 2010 16:40:59 GMT -5
As Shelly does, I think she quickly enjoyed the good feeling of self-love and self-care in balance with responsibility, free from the group think and what others would say. It really is wonderful! Yeah... I guess I would just note that this is a very middle-/upper-class dilemma to have, and, well, times are tough... Many of us can't afford much more than the dregs, and this has nothing to do with not loving ourselves enough. ETA: Of course, not wanting to disparage the notion of doing something to make oneself happy after coming out of a lifestyle of deprivation and self-sacrifice... I just... Well, I know I'm not the only one struggling, and it seemed important to point this out.
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