|
Post by rosa on Jun 30, 2009 17:33:03 GMT -5
Well, I used to write obituaries for a living and truthfully, it's not atypical for any kind of Christian writing about young children who died. It's kind of creepy because he died at birth, and the "sacrified for Mommy" part (it didn't sound in the original story like there was a point where they went "save the baby or the mother?"). But the end is pure boilerplate.
|
|
jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
|
Post by jo on Jun 30, 2009 18:54:05 GMT -5
Sadly, I find a lot of Conservative Chrstians are convinced you have to have a solid explanation to have anything happen. The Orthodox Church is actually quite content to say that sin entered this world and infected it and therefore evil happens without explanation and to people who were neve meant to experience it.
The idea that the child lived to sacrifice his life for his mother's isthat need to explain everything. We can't embrace our inner Forrest and just say Shit Happens.
And, the comment about the loss of "her vessel" is on Diaper Sewing Divas. I just happened to go there after about 6 months not there because my baby is outgrowing his medium diapers and I need to get him a large stash sewed up. I didn't connect it was the same person until I saw the name of the baby.
|
|
|
Post by philosophia on Jun 30, 2009 22:57:38 GMT -5
philosophia: That does help, but at the same time its frustrating to consider. That sort of thinking is like a perfect self-sustaining loop. You never get out, and no logical argument to the contrary can ever get in. Austinavery, I sincerely believe, that as far as Christianity is concerned, Calvinism is the perfect trap. Once you accept the doctrine only something cataclysmic will get you out. As you can see, everything is explainable within the system if you accept the doctrine. When I popped out of the loop, my entire Christian thought process was destroyed. It was the only way that a fundamentalist lifestyle could be justified. Thanks for all of your thought provoking posts!
|
|
|
Post by AustinAvery on Jul 1, 2009 9:55:06 GMT -5
When I popped out of the loop, my entire Christian thought process was destroyed. It was the only way that a fundamentalist lifestyle could be justified. philosopia: Reading this, and Vyckie's post, reminded me of this quote: "Lying to ourselves is more deeply ingrained than lying to others" – Fyodor Dostoyevsky What is perhaps as amazing as the ability of the mind to delude itself, are those instances when people somehow "pop out of the loop" as you say. In Vyckie's case, it was a gradual process, but she still had to have (what we used to call) a nervous breakdown before she reached the tipping point. Just curious, and don't want to pry if it is personal, but how did you reach a tipping point?
|
|
|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 2, 2009 2:27:25 GMT -5
I remember a friend who started out QF [but left after 4 kids] writing of the birth of her 2nd by C-section "I felt some discomfort as they were...." I know she meant "I was screaming in pain..." She was lucky. Her husband IS an MD and stopped the madness. Hopewell ~ I had a friend who was bedridden with every pregnancy and each time it was worse ~ not life-threatening, but just really miserable. After the 6th, her husband asserted his "authority" over her ~ and had a vasectomy. He refused to put his wife through that any more. I remember feeling so jealous ~ I couldn't imagine having a such a decisive husband who was willing to take the responsibility to say, "No more" himself ~ and I was really impressed when he told me, "It may not be the right thing scripturally ~ but if God has a problem with it, He can take it up with me. I will not do that to my wife again." Wow ~ a god-fearing man willing to take on the Lord in defense of his wife. That's love like I have rarely seen. correct me if I'm wrong Vykie, but wasn't that reasoning after your Wesley? Your youngest child? As in, it didn't change your mindset at the time but I didn't think you did have any more children after the partial uterine rupture. You are correct, Jemand. After Wesley was born the doctor strongly recommended that I not get pregnant again ~ he said that to Warren ~ but he would not actually say that another pregnancy could kill me ~ not even when I asked him point blank. So ~ I figured it must not actually be life-threatening. BUT ~ by that time I was so very tired of all the misery ~ so I was really not wanting to have another baby. I'll save the details for my story ~ but I will say that I did pregnant again ~ twice ~ and both times, I had a miscarriage very early on. Crazy, I know. Sadly, I find a lot of Conservative Chrstians are convinced you have to have a solid explanation to have anything happen. ... The idea that the child lived to sacrifice his life for his mother's isthat need to explain everything. We can't embrace our inner Forrest and just say Shit Happens. Jo ~ this is one point which I was really trying to make in my letter to Carri. I believe now that sometimes "stuff happens" with no real explanation for why it happened *to me* ~ but it is still a very hard concept for me because it leaves me feeling so NOT IN CONTROL of my own life. Before my thinking was that if I could figure out a reason why something was happening to me ~ then I could change it if I didn't like it, or keep doing what I'd been doing if I wanted the thing to continue. Plus ~ if it was a good thing ~ I could congratulate myself and feel affirmed that I was doing everything the right way. As you can see, everything is explainable within the system if you accept the doctrine. When I popped out of the loop, my entire Christian thought process was destroyed. Exactly, Philosophia ~ same here. It all made perfect sense ~ all fit together so logically and consistently. That's a big part of why it all just crumbled at once for me.
|
|
jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
|
Post by jo on Jul 2, 2009 9:54:36 GMT -5
See, this was a huge eye opener in the faith when I learned how the Orthodox Church views bad things and sin.
Basically, the Orthodox Church says that sin is an illness that infected this world. And, when it infected this world, everything ceased to be as it was *meant* to be. Consequently, anything can happen, it can happen to anyone and its not personal nor explainable per se. It just is.
Sin brought death. We've all paid the price of death. There is no other retribution for sin and failure. We're already paying it. And, it infects and impacts every aspect of our living. And yes, there is often NO explanation for a specific incident or suffering. It just is.
Western Christianity works so hard to EXPLAIN things. Protestant Christianity is especially insistent that it must be personal if it happens at all. In that line of thinking, its easy to lose your faith. But, its not how Christianity always was, and its not how the East sees it even now.
|
|
|
Post by hopewell on Jul 2, 2009 13:48:31 GMT -5
" A beautiful boy who sacraficed his life for his Momma's He lived his life to sacrafice and praise the Lord and he has in his short life brought others to Christ and save lost souls leading them to his father in heaven. I am honored to have such a son who gave his life for me.."
No lady, this innocent child died because YOU his GOD-fearing Mother would not heed the God-sent warning signs and stand up to your "Amazing" God-head husband and INSIST on real medical care to SAVE THIS CHILD'S LIFE and protect yourself at his birth!!! I'm not buying this crap any longer. I know she is living in a cult-induced trance, but good grief!! Could ANYONE swallow this crap??? This child gave his life to support the idiocy of his father and the blind marital submission/obedience of his mother. End of story. No sugary coating can change that. I'm starting to not have any sympathy at all left for this woman. No one, at any point in this disaster, made a choice of one life or the other. My sympathy now is only for those poor kids--what will happen to them??
|
|
|
Post by buzzard on Jul 2, 2009 17:58:48 GMT -5
I'm with hopewell on this one. I think the now removed (and last) post referring to carri knowing that something was wrong was truly the last straw on my severely hunched camel's back:
However, Carri herself knew from the beginning that this pregnancy was different and felt that there would be a problem. I remember her saying as much when she first joined the boards. After four unassisted births she felt led to have a midwife attend this one. We are our own experts on our bodies. Whether you believe it's God, intuition, fate or whatever it is so important to listen to what you hear from within. Carri is alive today because she trusted that voice. To me that is what UP/UC is all about; allowing yourself to be undisturbed by outside influences and to hear what is going on inside
So now the blog, the boards, and the homepage are gone. To me, it seems like circling wagons and attempting to cover up and hide. Vyckie, do you have any insight into what could be going on here? If her belief truly is THAT STRONG that they did the right thing and were following god's word, then isnt it her DUTY to spread that word and god's glory in his decision to take their baby?
|
|
calulu
Junior Member
Posts: 76
|
Post by calulu on Jul 2, 2009 18:03:56 GMT -5
He lived his life to sacrafice and praise the Lord and he has in his short life brought others to Christ and save lost souls leading them to his father in heaven.
But he never lived his life, never drew breath, never existed alive outside of the womb. All of that is impossible for someone not living. Was there some sort of miracle crusade centered around this poor dead baby I'm unaware of?
Sick thinking.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Jul 2, 2009 18:16:12 GMT -5
I'm especially turned off by the idea that the baby boy died to save his mother-- as if male protective chivalry begins before birth. Would the same thing have been said if it had been a girl? Somehow I doubt it. The magical thinking that this child somehow made choices, is no doubt comforting the family right now. As such, it's not something I would want to wrest from them. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. I had a friend who was bedridden with every pregnancy and each time it was worse ~ not life-threatening, but just really miserable. After the 6th, her husband asserted his "authority" over her ~ and had a vasectomy. He refused to put his wife through that any more. I remember feeling so jealous ~ I couldn't imagine having a such a decisive husband who was willing to take the responsibility to say, "No more" himself ~ and I was really impressed when he told me, "It may not be the right thing scripturally ~ but if God has a problem with it, He can take it up with me. I will not do that to my wife again." Wow ~ a god-fearing man willing to take on the Lord in defense of his wife. That's love like I have rarely seen. This is eye-opening, Vyckie. What kind of a god is this, that an ordinary human man can so easily outdo him in love and compassion? "The right thing scripturally" speaks of a god who cares more about his rigid rules than about people. A small-minded, mean little god. Not the God who is Love at all. Here is an article from SpiritualAbuse.com called "If your god is not God, fire him!" I think it's particularly appropos to the discussion in this thread. www.spiritualabuse.com/?page_id=4
|
|
|
Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jul 2, 2009 19:05:17 GMT -5
I'm with hopewell on this one. I think the now removed (and last) post referring to carri knowing that something was wrong was truly the last straw on my severely hunched camel's back: However, Carri herself knew from the beginning that this pregnancy was different and felt that there would be a problem. I remember her saying as much when she first joined the boards. After four unassisted births she felt led to have a midwife attend this one. We are our own experts on our bodies. Whether you believe it's God, intuition, fate or whatever it is so important to listen to what you hear from within. Carri is alive today because she trusted that voice. To me that is what UP/UC is all about; allowing yourself to be undisturbed by outside influences and to hear what is going on inside So now the blog, the boards, and the homepage are gone. To me, it seems like circling wagons and attempting to cover up and hide. Vyckie, do you have any insight into what could be going on here? If her belief truly is THAT STRONG that they did the right thing and were following god's word, then isnt it her DUTY to spread that word and god's glory in his decision to take their baby? Buzzard ~ the outrage which you've expressed here (Hopewell too) ~ is understandable, justified ~ and right. A baby is dead ~ most likely unnecessarily ~ and absolutely there was negligence ~ and now it appears ~ a cover up. We all ought to be angry. When I think about Carri and her family ~ I just am overwhelmed by the reality and horror of the situation. At this point, what can they do? They could wake up. But they've already made a huge investment in this ideology ~ it nearly cost Carri her life and it's cost the life of their son. They could continue, as you suggest, carry on with all the "praise the Lord" and the "we are so blessed" proclamations on the websites to show the world that they've done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide. But there's been talk of an investigation ~ and I suspect that is why they've taken down the website again. Whatever choices they make ~ whether to turn this situation around ~ "no more quivering" and tell the truth ~ or to cover up, justify, rationalize, etc. ~ I just feel for Carri because through all of this ~ she's lost her baby and I'm sure she'd really like to just be left alone to grieve ~ to comfort her other children who really need their mother's guidance and reassurance at a time like this. I hope that the reason Carri took down the blog is to just shut out the world ~ who cares what we think? ~ and focus on taking care of herself and her children. I hope. But, I'm afraid that's not the case. If they are being investigated (and they should be investigated), my heart really goes out to Carri. What an evil ideology ... pure evil.
|
|
jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
|
Post by jo on Jul 2, 2009 23:09:45 GMT -5
Just to play devil's advocate, I saw on the place Vyckie linked that at least one of their members actually went to Carri's house. There was a lot of cyberstalking that board was doing to her. I've actually been cyberstalked. And, I removed my entire precense from the internet for a LONG time after I was cyberstalked. Took me years to come out online again and speak up. And, I did so because what was NOT seen by the general public online was that the same people saying ugly stuff on message boards were sending me nasty, ugly threats via email.
From what I can gather, Carri has been a fairly public person before now. I've seen the group mentality at the jinger board before in cyberstalkers. If I knew a group like that was out there, and that one of them actually came to my house...I'd yank everything offline too. I'd get a restraining order and run for the hills to protect my family.
And, its just a guess. But, I'm guessing that the emotions involved with a baby's death, combined with a sense of blaming the parents for that death. Well, she might have disappeared for fear of what she saw online and not necessarily IRL. And, I wouldn't blame her. I'd do the same thing under those circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by luneargentee on Jul 3, 2009 2:56:40 GMT -5
See, this was a huge eye opener in the faith when I learned how the Orthodox Church views bad things and sin. Basically, the Orthodox Church says that sin is an illness that infected this world. And, when it infected this world, everything ceased to be as it was *meant* to be. Consequently, anything can happen, it can happen to anyone and its not personal nor explainable per se. It just is. The trouble is that to accept that things just are means that things that are important to us may have little meaning in the big picture. These types of HDOs, and the general fundamentalist-evangelical movement, are growing because they tell people that everything they do is from and important to God. If a child dies, most Christians would be heartbroken, but they would accept that things like this happen in this sinful world, and look forward to seeing their child in the afterlife. Obviously, this is my opinion, but from reading these stories it seems that many, if not most, of the people in these HDOs have self-esteem issues that cause them to either give up control completely or want to control everything completely. The issue with self-esteem causes these people to need to believe that they are important to someone, and if they're told that they and every thing that happens to them is important and being managed and controlled by the most important being ever, God, then of course this type of religion is going to appeal to them above all others. It fills that huge, empty hole of need inside of them. It's so important to them to believe that God is involved this intimately with them, that they're willing to shut down their minds, put up with abuse and neglect, and reject reality. It physically hurts to read these stories. Pain and nausea. I have to step away for a couple of days sometimes because I just can't read anymore.
|
|
|
Post by kisekileia on Jul 3, 2009 3:27:23 GMT -5
KR, thank you so much for posting that link. It jibes nicely with the approach I have been taking to my Christianity in the last couple of years: believing that Jesus' stated "two greatest commands" (love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself) trump lesser rules in the Bible. If the effects of a rule in the Bible (e.g. no gay sex) are not currently compatible with loving God and other people, I throw it out (as I did with anti-gay teaching). However, I have been really struggling with what it means to love God. This article KR posted has pointed me towards an answer: if God is love, if God is just, merciful, forgiving, etc.--then love the qualities that God is and hold them as high ideals. But the Biblical portrayal of God is complex and heterogenous, and I still have to figure out what to make of that.
And on topic. I hope that Carri is not being cyberstalked, but that the family is being investigated by Children's Aid and that this will be a wake-up call for her.
|
|
|
Post by jemand on Jul 3, 2009 9:44:35 GMT -5
I want to talk about the older children. Older children in large families often grow up way too early and are worked, worked worked... I would not be surprised if one or more of these older children were NOT looking forward to one more charge they had to "help" with-- and I don't blame them, children, which is what they still are, really shouldn't be raising their younger siblings. But-- what does an older child who wasn't looking forward to this infant think NOW? I imagine there would be tremendous psychological upheaval and a feeling of guilt-- feeling that they, by not wanting the responsibility of "helping" more-- somehow caused this.
Anyway, no one mentioned this, I just wanted to bring it up. Because I wouldn't be surprised, if at least ONE of those children, was dealing with conflicting emotions on this, glad to not have still less parental attention and still more way-too-early responsibility, but horrified at what happened to allow them this "freedom."
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Jul 3, 2009 14:35:56 GMT -5
Jemand, that is so true. Poor kids; I hope that somehow they will get some counseling, if not now, then later. Lunargentee, what you're saying about control ties in with what I've been thinking about-- that fundamentalism is, in essence, religious codependence, and it the codependent who find it appealing. SpiritualAbuse.com has articles about codependent views of God-- I think God weeps, but will still meet people at their point of need, even if they are completely misunderstanding who God is. It doesn't surprise me that Carri and her family are feeling comfort from God's Spirit. God loves them even if they think He's a big abusive dad in the sky. What I think is that God tends to allow us to make our own decisions, even if we make dumb ones. I think our own instincts, and the heart-feelings we get in prayer, can be warnings not to do something dumb-- but we are always capable of ignoring or overriding those instincts. But in the end, in spite of every mistake we make, every box we put God in, and the normal operation of cause-and-effect in this world-- in the end God will bring us Home. Kisekeliea-- you're welcome! I think it's important in reading the Bible to understand that we are always seeing God through the eyes of the human writers (within their own cultural understandings) who were having divine encounters, and that human understanding of God is always, by nature, imperfect and limited. Even our own is.
|
|
|
Post by sargassosea on Jul 3, 2009 16:38:20 GMT -5
KRWordgazer -
Is it too much of a leap for you to believe that your "heart-feelings" are just your own good common sense?
Why (and I ask ask this with true respect) does your intellect and reason have anything to do with "God"?
All I can think is that you can't trust yourself.
|
|
|
Post by castor on Jul 3, 2009 17:10:05 GMT -5
KRWordgazer - Is it too much of a leap for you to believe that your "heart-feelings" are just your own good common sense? Why (and I ask ask this with true respect) does your intellect and reason have anything to do with "God"? All I can think is that you can't trust yourself. Sargassosea, I don't think it works like that. What you do with your belief, or non-belief in God is definitely a choice (and personally I think Krwordgazer is making very beautiful choices). But if you believe? Well it's more complicated than that. I consider myself an agnost, not because that makes most sense to me, but because that's how I feel. I don't just think "we can't know if there's a God/there are gods/spirits/whatever", it's what I feel. Where some people have a "yes, there is a God", and some people have a "no there is no God", I have nothing. Krwordgazer probably has a "yes", that's not a more or less valuable feeling than mine. And it has nothing to do with trust, or lack of trust of herself. I do think fundamentalist religion has a lot to do with fear, but believe/religion in general, that's something else. It just WORKS for some people.
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Jul 3, 2009 22:45:03 GMT -5
Thanks, Castor. ;D Sargassosea, I am in no way discounting intellect, reason, or plain old common sense. Or our own instincts-- as I think I made clear above. But just because you've never had a heart-feeling that seemed to you to come from God, doesn't mean I haven't. Sometimes I have felt things that turned out to be fact, that I couldn't possibly have known on my own. It's not that I don't trust myself-- it's that I also trust God. If you're going to insist that there couldn't possibly be anything more to it than my own intellect-- how can you be so sure? Last I checked, you and I were each inside our own heads, having our own experiences, not one another's. ;D And if you don't mind my asking, in all friendliness-- why are you asking me to make a "leap" in the direction of atheism? I haven't asked you to make a "leap of faith," have I?
|
|
|
Post by coleslaw on Jul 4, 2009 5:44:30 GMT -5
I suspect that's why we humans developed language, to help overcome the barrier of being inside our own heads, having our own experiences, not each others. When we teach our babies language, we start out by labeling tangible objects, "doggie", "bunny", "mommy", that being the easiest way to make sure shared meaning is indeed shared. Then we move on to descriptors, like "hot!" and "red". Eventually they learn the meaning of intangibles, like "faith" and "certainty" and "intangible", but that learning, to make sure shared meaning is indeed shared, requires a lot of examples and contrasts between "this" and "not this".
I recall an inside my own head moment down in the swamps. I saw what looked to me like a river otter crossing the road. I asked a local tour guide if there were river otters in the area, because I was pretty sure I had seen one. He said there were some, but opined that I probably had seen a nutria. (Actually, he said "nutria rat".)
I was quite resistant to the idea I had confused a nutria with an otter. I had seen otters dozens of times at the zoo; I had seen nutria even more times out in the wild, and they don't look the same to me. And I had seen what I had seen, the tour operator was nowhere around at the time. But just to be sure, I looked at pictures of both online, and discovered that some of the pictures of wet nutria looked very much like wet otters. So even though the tour operator was not in my head, using my eyes to see what I saw, he did have specialized knowledge of what was likely in the area that made it possible to make a good guess about what I had seen, and he may very well have been right.
|
|
|
Post by tapati on Jul 4, 2009 10:57:59 GMT -5
I've been very uncomfortable with this topic and the turns it has taken. I nearly lost a child and can only imagine how devastating it must be to actually do so. We seem to be talking as if AFE was preventable and something that could have been detected early, which is not the case. However each of us may feel about the need for good ob/gyn or expert midwife care, the lack of earlier care was not the ultimate cause of this child's death.
While I think it's fine to discuss the larger issues of why there might be resistance to doctors in the QF/P type households, I see no reason to focus on the specifics of this family to make the point, especially while they are grieving. It comes off as coldly opportunistic, in my opinion, and detracts from our hoped for purpose as a beacon to any who might think about moving towards greater autonomy in their lives.
I can well imagine how I would have felt while my son was in a coma if someone told me that some AOL group (back in the nineties) was discussing whether or not I could have prevented my son's brain injury if I weren't a feminist busy with school, but instead were a stay at home mom solely focused on my children and awake when he left to do his paper route. Why, I should have made sure he wore his helmet that day but I was selfishly still in bed, trying to get enough sleep to get through my university classes. What a cold feminist bitch I was! [Of course I don't think that way, I'm just sayin'.] What if they justified their conversation by pointing out that I had made myself somewhat of a public feminist figure by writing articles for the local feminist paper?
No matter the origin of the Golden Rule, I think it's a good idea to try to put in practice.
|
|
jennie
Junior Member
Posts: 96
|
Post by jennie on Jul 4, 2009 18:11:08 GMT -5
What I don't fully understand is if they were really going to trust God no matter what with the unassisted home birth - why did Mark call the paramedics when Carri passed out? Don't read this wrong, I'm glad he did, because at least her life was saved. But it appears to me to be a little inconsistent.
|
|
|
Post by sargassosea on Jul 5, 2009 6:28:55 GMT -5
KRW - Sorry if you got the impression I was encouraging you to leap in the direction of atheism especially since I am as ignorant of that philosophy as I am of religious philosophy. I guess the word "intellect" denotes atheism? And, really, I would never presume to discount any feeling you have nor would I discount where you believe it came from. I just find it odd (and always have frankly) that a person can claim to be a believer in god yet dismiss any or all of the bible as they see fit. I mean is it of god, or not? (Told you I'm ignorant!) -------------- Tapati - Well said
|
|
|
Post by krwordgazer on Jul 5, 2009 16:53:03 GMT -5
KRW - Sorry if you got the impression I was encouraging you to leap in the direction of atheism especially since I am as ignorant of that philosophy as I am of religious philosophy. I guess the word "intellect" denotes atheism? And, really, I would never presume to discount any feeling you have nor would I discount where you believe it came from. I just find it odd (and always have frankly) that a person can claim to be a believer in god yet dismiss any or all of the bible as they see fit. I mean is it of god, or not? (Told you I'm ignorant!) Sargassosea, I apologize for misinterpreting you. When you said, Is it too much of a leap for you to believe that your "heart-feelings" are just your own good common sense?
Why (and I ask ask this with true respect) does your intellect and reason have anything to do with "God"?
All I can think is that you can't trust yourself. -- what I understood you to be saying was that you thought the "leap" to believing there was nothing involved but my own intellect and reason, was a small "leap" that I should make, and that there was something lacking in me ("can't trust yourself") that I did not make that leap. In other words, that a person who trusted herself would not trust or believe in God-- the atheist view. It had nothing to do with "intellect" denoting atheism-- it was about whether or not it was ok for me to believe in something more than human intellect, as worthy of trust. As for how I view the Bible-- no, I don't just dismiss any or all of it as I see fit. That isn't what I meant. There are actually a number of different views Christians hold as to how the Bible is inspired (not that it is inspired). Was it dictated word-for-word by God to the human authors? Is every word inspired, or only the general message? Are only the spiritual teachings inspired, or can we also expect it to contain infallible, inerrant facts about matters we now study scientifically? Is everything in the narratives to be taken as factual history? Can we take into account different literary forms, or is it all to be read like a 3000-year-old newspaper? My own view is something I am still a bit fluid on, because I'm still thinking about the role of the human agents involved. I don't believe they were just passive conduits, but recorders in their own voices of encounters with the Divine. What is clear to me is that whatever their role, God's word must be viewed as having been given to them, in their culture and their time in history, first. Our reading of what was said, viewed through the glasses of 21st-century Western culture, may be very different from what the original author intended as the meaning, or what the original audience thought the meaning was. A key understanding here is that the ancient mind did not delineate in the same way we do between empirical fact and literary embellishment. There was no such thing as newspaper-style reporting back then. The writers of the Bible would have been completely puzzled by such a concept. What I believe is that the Bible is inspired by God and is authoritative for the Christian in terms of faith and practice-- but it is not a science text, a historical treatise, or a simple set of rules. It can be understood on different levels-- the child in Sunday school is going to relate to it differently than the theologian, and both levels are good-- but its primary purpose is to record encounters with God in order to lead us to our own encounter with God, not to be turned into a god itself. Jesus said, "You search the scriptures, thinking that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that point to me-- but you do not come to me." When Christians worship the Bible rather than God, it can lead to terrible heartbreak as they turn it into something it was never intended to be. This is especially true when they read it as a strict rule book dictated by the Boss and left on their desks yesterday. Tapati-- I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate your balancing words very much. I think a discussion of the causes of suffering is a natural course for this thread to take, as we all contemplate this poor family's tragedy-- but you're absolutely right that we should treat that tragedy with sensitivity, and to the extent that I have not, I apologize.
|
|
|
Post by tapati on Jul 5, 2009 22:15:51 GMT -5
No apologies needed! I just felt that in general we should think about the reputation of this forum as we proceed. Consider how much propaganda there is about outsiders within the community of QF/P leaning families. I don't want to appear to fulfill their stereotypes of the cold feminists and heathens and discourage someone who comes here to get their toe in the water of reconsidering their views. I was thinking that they might fear judgment of THEIR choices along the way if we routinely rip apart any family we know about. There are ways to vigorously discuss the issues without skewering the families involved. Plus, none of us really has access to the full medical information and we're just going on what little we've learned from blog posts and such. I think the local medical authorities who are mandated reporters of abuse are the ones to make that call.
|
|