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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 1, 2009 9:22:49 GMT -5
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Post by jemand on Sept 1, 2009 9:42:59 GMT -5
more and more when I think of QF I think of pet hoarding: www.examiner.com/examiner/x-7468-Pet-Health-Examiner~y2009m6d15-Pet-hoarding--A-form-of-animal-abuse-and-crueltyChildren need a lot more attention and care to be psychologically and physically healthy than pets, so while pet hoarding generally occurs with numbers in the 20s or 30s and up, kid hoarding I think could definitely start with fewer. Those hoarding are blind to the harm they are causing to the hoarded, they cannot see what they are denying and think everything is totally fine, and hey, lets get some more! quote from article "More often than not, the pet hoarder is unable to see and recognize that the animals in his/her care are being abused. These hoarders usually believe that they are performing a service to the animals in their care by taking them into their home. Animal hoarders often offer the excuse that any life is better than no life at all and frequently seem incapable of recognizing that the quality of an animal's life is an important factor also."
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Post by speakwitness on Sept 1, 2009 12:39:35 GMT -5
as a woman with friends who cannot have children I find this whole idea pretty hurtful. I am the mother of three daughters. I would be afraid to think of them living this lifestyle. There are many other ways to serve God besides bearing children. There are many instances in the Bible where women teach, found churches, prophecy, follow God. To say that the end all and be all of a woman's faith and service relies on her ability to give birth or die trying is wrong.
the Duggars may be geniuses at making all of this work but most people are not. Children suffer and also become frustrated with God.
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jennie
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Post by jennie on Sept 1, 2009 12:44:39 GMT -5
My comment is regarding what your friend said about the Duggars, that they "seem pretty normal." Am I the only one who thinks they are putting on a pretty carefully scripted act so they seem as normal as possible to the rest of the world? Most the the QF families I know are just like this, they try hard to seem normal to everyone else, but when you get to know them better, you start to see behind the veil.
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Post by enlightenmentgirl on Sept 1, 2009 12:56:27 GMT -5
I love reading the posts about the Duggars' show on Televisionwithoutpity.com, because the posters there are very astute. They have noticed (and some have apparently even had background informaton) how tightly controlled the family image is compared to the earliest specials.
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Post by hopewell on Sept 1, 2009 13:47:17 GMT -5
I have written about the Duggars at my blog about the problems I see with their "faith" and the ways it limits their kids. I also post often at the TWOP board on their show.
There is nothing "normal" about ignoring birth control and acting "surprised" at the arrival of number 19 for God's sake. In the 50s we had big "happy" CATHOLIC families, [ever read the book FOURTEEN by Stephen Zanichkowsky?? It's much more realistic!] Now its QF. I think of young girls growing up in divorced or single parent situations [like my own daughter] and seeing this and thinking it's a solution to feeling lonely or unloved Then I think of Carrie and Benaiah and the others who don't make the news. Every time I pass an old mobile home out in the country [we live in the boonies] I wonder--QF? I used to see a family in WalMart where we used ot live that had all the earmarks of QF--bad clothes, awful hairstyles little Laura on Little House, Dad in charge, boys in work boots and FEAR of Daddy written all over them. He never let them stop and look at clothing or toys. I saw them enough times [we must have been paid at about the same day or something] to know that the kids ALWAYS looked miserable. Mom never came along, or I never saw her, but there was always a little one or two in tow or carried by a sibling. Misery was all they seemed to know.
I hope Michelle Duggar comes thru this pregnancy fine--I just hope her uterus comes out with the baby! I think of the 4 oldest Duggar girls and they remind me of indentured servants--like the employees of the local Chinese take-out who are never, ever seen in the community except in the restaurant. THEY didn't ask to raise a zillion little brothers and sisters! Grossly unfair, but they have to clean everything, cook everything, wipe everything, change all the diapers, HOMESCHOOL their siblings. Oh yes and when they get married at a very young age they get to do it all over again. I know CPS won't get involved--they really do have worse families to go after I suppose, but it would be interesting to see what would happen.
As much as I've enjoyed their show [and I have] I think TLC needs to pull the plug on it for much the same reasons they need to end JK+8--exploitation. A special or two--ok, but the Duggars have shelved their beliefs to appear more "mainstream"--gone is the family uniform, gone are the ugly cotton jumpers, and there's way less talk about faith. Why? Those things made them "odd." Now they appear more "normal"--just a normal family that happens to have 18 kids and live in an airplane hanger that's been professionally decorated. Oh yes, they're debt free.
Never mind that the little bits we've seen of homeschooling were beyond chaotic; never mind that on a visit to a school none of the appropriately aged kids were along; never mind that they exploited Grandpa's last sad days AND his funeral for financial gain. Never mind that Gothard is against contemporary music--they went to meet Dolly Parton! Never mind the built in wet/dry vacuum system in the house--they take a product placement on the show for Swiffer Wet Jet . On and on and on. TLC--cut off the money.
FYI--I've also blogged about Nancy Campbell. She is super Creepy with that other-worldly voice. It's like listening to a cross cultural seance.
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Post by Angelia Sparrow on Sept 1, 2009 16:51:09 GMT -5
My writing partner just commented on it and added the question, "But what do good christians care about risking a mother of 18 and another child dying? If she dies, Jim Bob can just find a 20 year old and have 19 more."
The sad part is, my pastor's wife told me exactly that. I shouldn't be afraid to die in childbirth because my husband would just remarry. As if I'm an entirely replaceable commodity, like a microwave!
Sorry, that part of QF always rankled me.
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Post by tsudhonimh on Sept 1, 2009 18:29:33 GMT -5
They are doing it wrong! She needs more arrow factories wives or concubines and some handmaidens. I linked to your blog and planned parenthood's website as extra resources for my article. Maybe someone will find them useful. We gave up slavery, although it is Biblically acceptable, along with burning animal carcasses on altars and other Bronze Age practices. Why is hyper-fertility still being lauded in an overpopulated world. Can't they just adopt some arrows?
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jlp
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Post by jlp on Sept 1, 2009 18:31:44 GMT -5
How much time is each child getting from their parents? And who is really raising the children, the parents or the oldest children?
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athenac
New Member
I'll be a post-feminist in the post-patriarchy
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Post by athenac on Sept 1, 2009 18:33:11 GMT -5
I'm pro-choice, and that means accepting every woman's decision about her body.
That being said, I feel so sorry for those kids, especially the girls. My biggest concern is that they will be totally unprepared to do anything other than be moms and homemakers.
Anyone want to take bets on how many of them leave QF and how many of them follow Michelle and have dozens of kids?
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Post by jemand on Sept 1, 2009 19:59:19 GMT -5
I'm pro-choice, and that means accepting every woman's decision about her body. I'm pro choice only so far as I believe all women's choices with their fertility should be legal. Says nothing about whether I think they are making stupid choices and hurting their children badly. And.... I'd be rather surprised if any of the girls had more than 4 kids. The boys? Maybe might have more, but short of 10. Anyway, that's my prediction.
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jennie
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Post by jennie on Sept 2, 2009 9:11:54 GMT -5
That being said, I feel so sorry for those kids, especially the girls. My biggest concern is that they will be totally unprepared to do anything other than be moms and homemakers. I think that's kinda one of the objectives in the QF movement. Most QF families only educate the boys. I feel sorry for them too. I think a few leave the lifestyle, but I think a lot are so brainwashed that they stay. They feel like God will only be pleased with them if they continue on that path. It's so cult like. I've always wondered what the factors are that make someone leave? Is there a common denominator? I think personality comes into play - some people are just more independent minded and can never make themselves fit into the mold. If there is severe abuse in the home, I would guess that would cause a greater percentage to leave.
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Post by simplystina09 on Sept 2, 2009 14:58:14 GMT -5
Hi Vyckie, I was curious as Quiverful women do you know why Michelle Duggar sees an OBGYN and has hospital births?
I really enjoy this blog! Thank you for sharing your story... I look forward to the next post.
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Post by Sierra on Sept 2, 2009 19:02:23 GMT -5
I've always wondered what the factors are that make someone leave? Is there a common denominator? I think personality comes into play - some people are just more independent minded and can never make themselves fit into the mold. If there is severe abuse in the home, I would guess that would cause a greater percentage to leave. I'd be careful about assuming that the independently-minded necessarily leave this sort of thing. There are lots of avenues for QF/P followers to exercise their need for independence: for men, branching out as pastors and teaching their own subtle version of the doctrine. For women, it's harder; they may get involved in woman-to-woman newsletters and activities, or make decisions for their children in matters where the husband does not interfere with her judgment. I knew a lot of frustrated creative people, whose energies soured with repression and who became some of the most vehement oppressors of others in order to justify the limitations they felt themselves. My abusive father liked to credit his supposedly superior intellect with the fact that he didn't get sucked into the same cult that my mother did. What he failed to realize, however, was that his abusive behavior was the strongest factor keeping her in the church. She didn't turn to the "Message of the Hour" (Branham) cult because she was unintelligent; she did it because she was desperate for emotional solace. The church gave her validation for enduring my father's abuse, teaching her that she was in the right and if she just prayed hard enough and followed their teachings closely enough, he would stop being abusive and would get saved. These decisions have very little to do with the analytical mind; they have much more to do with basic emotional needs. As for myself, I grew up noticing that the God these people worshiped was as petty, domineering and wrathful as he was, and learned to equate emotional abuse with him to emotional abuse from the "Message of the Hour" doctrines. I left because they never provided me with the barbed comfort they did my mother; they just terrorized me. I think even if a family is abused by a church member, they aren't necessarily more likely to leave. Abuse is inherently limiting to the psyche; it doesn't open horizons or encourage the abused person to think of possibilities beyond the sphere in which the abuse is taking place. Instead, abused people tend to fall into deeper and deeper pits: trying harder to please to the point of severely damaging themselves, searching more fervently for answers in church literature, blaming themselves for somehow failing their family members, and worst of all considering and attempting suicide. For example, I developed anorexia as an expression of this self-hatred I internalized as a result of abuse. I left when I found a new community: college. I didn't know I was living in fear until I experienced life without it; and I didn't know I was being emotionally abused until I met healthy people. I once heard it expressed as follows, ironically by "Message" people: You can't take away a dog's bone. You have to offer the dog a juicy steak. Then it'll drop the bone and take the steak. In this instance, there needs to be something to replace the QF/P life, something tantalizing: like free thought and the realization that there is something better available, but more importantly the emotional support of free people.
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Post by sbhudson on Sept 2, 2009 20:28:42 GMT -5
I curious about how former QF-ers feel about the coverage of the Duggar family in publications like PEOPLE, TV shows like Today and on websites. As someone who is actively involved in politics, specifically, women's rights, I have been aware of QF for a few years (although my understanding has greatly improved with Kathryn Joyce's book and Vyckie's blog), I have been an occasional viewer of the Duggars' TLC show and the more I've seen, the more I've become concerned with the lack of full disclosure of their belief system. It concerns me to see publications with huge, mainstream followings publishing stories about the Duggars' procreation without mentioning that said procreation comes from an anti-woman, potentially dangerous, ideology. Even liberal blogs like The Huffington Post fail to mention this. This speaks to Vyckie's post and her friend stating that the Duggars, "seem normal." I think it gives people the wrong idea. Do you think that magazines, TV and websites that fail to mention QF and all that the QF lifestyle entails, bolster the movement's credibility? Do think that TLC is complicit in this as well? I think that bloggers and blog comments that make jokes like "Is it a uterus or a clown car?" or "Don't they know how this keeps happening?" are seriously missing the larger point.
PS- I think Vyckie is doing a great job with this blog, helping to counter the magical life of the Duggars with a good dose of reality.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 2, 2009 22:31:09 GMT -5
I curious about how former QF-ers feel about the coverage of the Duggar family in publications like PEOPLE, TV shows like Today and on websites. As someone who is actively involved in politics, specifically, women's rights, I have been aware of QF for a few years (although my understanding has greatly improved with Kathryn Joyce's book and Vyckie's blog), I have been an occasional viewer of the Duggars' TLC show and the more I've seen, the more I've become concerned with the lack of full disclosure of their belief system. It concerns me to see publications with huge, mainstream followings publishing stories about the Duggars' procreation without mentioning that said procreation comes from an anti-woman, potentially dangerous, ideology. Even liberal blogs like The Huffington Post fail to mention this. This speaks to Vyckie's post and her friend stating that the Duggars, "seem normal." I think it gives people the wrong idea. Do you think that magazines, TV and websites that fail to mention QF and all that the QF lifestyle entails, bolster the movement's credibility? Do think that TLC is complicit in this as well? I think that bloggers and blog comments that make jokes like "Is it a uterus or a clown car?" or "Don't they know how this keeps happening?" are seriously missing the larger point. PS- I think Vyckie is doing a great job with this blog, helping to counter the magical life of the Duggars with a good dose of reality. Welcome sbhudson! You are absolutely right ~ the positive, "normal" image which is being portrayed in the media is incomplete and even deceptive. It is potentially dangerous as it lends credibility to a worldview which, if understood in its entirety would be classified as seriously detrimental and abusive. This is why we are working here to tell the truth ~ and we are establishing a charitable and educational organization to counter all the misleading coverage which QFers are currently enjoying in the media. I'm kind of excited for the potential to spread an much needed warning message to counter the prevailing acceptance of "biblical family values" which in fact, devalue and dehumanize women and men alike.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 3, 2009 8:31:45 GMT -5
My writing partner just commented on it and added the question, "But what do good christians care about risking a mother of 18 and another child dying? If she dies, Jim Bob can just find a 20 year old and have 19 more." The sad part is, my pastor's wife told me exactly that. I shouldn't be afraid to die in childbirth because my husband would just remarry. As if I'm an entirely replaceable commodity, like a microwave! Sorry, that part of QF always rankled me. Angelia ~ I'm sure your pastor's wife's cruel words must have been devastating to hear. Isn't it amazing that it is generally assumed that a widowed or divorced woman with many children is destined to remain single as no man wants to marry into such tremendous responsibility ~ and yet, no one doubts that a widowed or divorced man with a boatload of children will easily find a new mother for his kids? When Laura's ex ~ Dale ~ decided he needed a woman to care for the 8 children still at home, he went online to a Christian dating site and had a new wife with several kids of her own within just a few months. What the hell?
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 3, 2009 8:53:38 GMT -5
I once heard it expressed as follows, ironically by "Message" people: You can't take away a dog's bone. You have to offer the dog a juicy steak. Then it'll drop the bone and take the steak. In this instance, there needs to be something to replace the QF/P life, something tantalizing: like free thought and the realization that there is something better available, but more importantly the emotional support of free people. I completely agree with this principle, sierra ~ however, to the QF woman's mind, that juicy steak is pure poison ~ and the dog bone is her ticket to untold eternal rewards ~ she's highly unlikely to make the exchange. Sad, but true. This is why I am striving in the telling of my story to work with the QF mindset to lead the martyrs (who'll gladly suffer incredible deprivation and abuse for the benefit of anyone besides themselves) that this philosophy is poison FOR OTHERS ~ the children, the husbands, and even God Himself. My strategy (yes, believe it or not, I do have a plan : is to undermine the martyr mentality in a manner which won't automatically trip the woman's do-nothing-from-self-interest thought-stopping switch. So, in keeping with the J.O.Y. principle, my message is, QF/P belittles Jesus, irreparably harms children and men, puts the "submissive" woman in a position of power and control and dominance over her husband and God. IOW ~ QF/P in practice turns the J.O.Y. principle on its head. Understanding the truth of this could be enough to cause the woman to realize that the dog bone actually is a dog bone ~ and maybe then, she'll go for the juicy steak. What do you all think of my strategy? I am soliciting honest / realistic feedback here.
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juju
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Posts: 56
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Post by juju on Sept 3, 2009 15:31:11 GMT -5
This is the paragraph that leapt out at me from your post: I think that's my biggest problem with the lionization of the Duggars on TV - what people see is an attractive, middle-class family that espouses "christian values" and has produced 18 well-behaved, good-looking children who aren't on welfare or taking drugs. On the surface, that's commendable. With all the problems besetting families today, it seems like people are willing to give them a cookie just for managing to raise children who aren't smoking dope or knocking over liquor stores, as though there are only the two extremes. The problem is, that's like giving a cookie to a man who screams at his wife and then says "What? What's wrong? It's not like I hit her!" You don't get a cookie for acting like a normal person, sorry. The other thing that bugs is that people who watch the Duggars on TV and don't research their beliefs have no idea what lies under the surface of that bland exterior. They don't know that those girls have zero future except as brood mares for other fundie families. They don't know that those kids are getting their schooling from Bill Gothard's infamous "Wisdom Booklets", so that if one of them had superior intelligence and a vocation for law or medicine, he or she couldn't get into a college anyway due to their woefully inadequate education. They don't know that the Duggars set those kids up for one kind of life and one kind only, and neatly prune all alternatives from their experience at the very beginning. Most importantly, they do not see that the Duggars are making it okay to raise a crop of beautiful, interesting, intelligent girls who are taught to believe, down to the marrow of their bones, that they are inferior to every man on the planet and always will be and that their sex is their total destiny. Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar had normal childhoods. They went to public school, worked at jobs, Michelle was even a cheerleader. How dare they just decide that none of those choices will be available to their children? And then they put it on TV like it's all good. I have noticed, actually, that as the show goes on they softpedal the Duggars beliefs more and more, I think to make them more palatable to the public. I am not rejoicing in number 19. I am praying that it's a boy, so that they don't bring forth another daughter into servitude.
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Post by tapati on Sept 3, 2009 15:57:54 GMT -5
My non-existent uterus has phantom pain at the very thought of giving birth to a 19th child.
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Post by tapati on Sept 3, 2009 16:02:52 GMT -5
In fact, it's this narrowing of choices that is the WHOLE POINT of homeschooling for these families. They want to make sure that it's next to impossible to break free and live any other kind of life, because any other kind of life is sinful and would lead their kids to hell in their mind.
I'm reminded of the anger of the children from the Surfwise documentary who were also not sent to school or even home-schooled. One wanted to go to college for a particular profession and was told that it would take many remedial classes, a few years' worth, before he could even start taking basic college classes. He gave up, but he was very bitter about it. Each one of the adult children were angry at what they were denied educationally. The father who denied them? He was a doctor before he dropped out of society.
It won't surprise me if several of these children end up that bitter about their lives.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 3, 2009 19:59:49 GMT -5
I once heard it expressed as follows, ironically by "Message" people: You can't take away a dog's bone. You have to offer the dog a juicy steak. Then it'll drop the bone and take the steak. In this instance, there needs to be something to replace the QF/P life, something tantalizing: like free thought and the realization that there is something better available, but more importantly the emotional support of free people. I completely agree with this principle, sierra ~ however, to the QF woman's mind, that juicy steak is pure poison ~ and the dog bone is her ticket to untold eternal rewards ~ she's highly unlikely to make the exchange. Sad, but true. This is why I am striving in the telling of my story to work with the QF mindset to lead the martyrs (who'll gladly suffer incredible deprivation and abuse for the benefit of anyone besides themselves) that this philosophy is poison FOR OTHERS ~ the children, the husbands, and even God Himself. My strategy (yes, believe it or not, I do have a plan : is to undermine the martyr mentality in a manner which won't automatically trip the woman's do-nothing-from-self-interest thought-stopping switch. So, in keeping with the J.O.Y. principle, my message is, QF/P belittles Jesus, irreparably harms children and men, puts the "submissive" woman in a position of power and control and dominance over her husband and God. IOW ~ QF/P in practice turns the J.O.Y. principle on its head. Understanding the truth of this could be enough to cause the woman to realize that the dog bone actually is a dog bone ~ and maybe then, she'll go for the juicy steak. What do you all think of my strategy? I am soliciting honest / realistic feedback here. I think your strategy will be very effective, Vyckie-- but from what I've read from others, I'm not sure all women would be able to identify with this: This is not what women believe is going on, of course. But I agree that the prevailing tendency in patriarchal religion to give lip-service to the responsibility of the man for everything, while simultaneously blaming the woman for anything that goes wrong, is self-contradictory in that it does mean that women are tacitly required to control their husbands through their submission. The trick will be to get the women to see past this double-speak and recognize that this is what is really going on. But probably that's the direction you're already headed with this. Also, what I understand you to be saying is that Q/F women (simply because of the harshness of their lives!)are quite likely to be internally motivated not with a "pure desire to please God", as they would put it-- but with a desire to get a blessed household -- in other words, to make God bless their households through their own submission. I agree. But this is something that would be difficult for them to see, and that if not handled very carefully, will come across (as I'm sure you can see), as blaming the victim. . .
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Post by philosophia on Sept 3, 2009 20:51:17 GMT -5
Krwordgazer,
I was actually accused of trying to force God for a blessing by my former submissive lifestyle, and told I should just submit and quit seeking a blessing .
In plain language, you cannot divorce nor even expect the marriage to improve. Just die on the cross doing your duty for the rest of your life. That is my 'reasonable service' . These teachings destroy the soul and lead to despair.
My point is that many QF women are familiar with the 'selfish' submission, but they use it as a guilt bludgeon.
''How dare you expect anything from God, selfish worm!''
Unless you have lived this, it cannot be understood.
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em
Full Member
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Post by em on Sept 3, 2009 21:21:37 GMT -5
This is why I am striving in the telling of my story to work with the QF mindset to lead the martyrs (who'll gladly suffer incredible deprivation and abuse for the benefit of anyone besides themselves) that this philosophy is poison FOR OTHERS ~ the children, the husbands, and even God Himself. My strategy (yes, believe it or not, I do have a plan : is to undermine the martyr mentality in a manner which won't automatically trip the woman's do-nothing-from-self-interest thought-stopping switch. So, in keeping with the J.O.Y. principle, my message is, QF/P belittles Jesus, irreparably harms children and men, puts the "submissive" woman in a position of power and control and dominance over her husband and God. IOW ~ QF/P in practice turns the J.O.Y. principle on its head. Understanding the truth of this could be enough to cause the woman to realize that the dog bone actually is a dog bone ~ and maybe then, she'll go for the juicy steak. What do you all think of my strategy? I am soliciting honest / realistic feedback here. It sounds good in theory, Vyckie. And I think you're right in showing how harmful this lifestyle is to the children and everybody, rather than just the mom, is the best way to go. It sound good. If they won't just ignore what you're saying or say "oh, that doesn't apply to me."
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lectio
Full Member
growing...
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Post by lectio on Sept 3, 2009 23:29:52 GMT -5
In plain language, you cannot divorce nor even expect the marriage to improve. Just die on the cross doing your duty for the rest of your life. That is my 'reasonable service' . These teachings destroy the soul and lead to despair. philosophia, so good. (((big hugs))) to you for all you do.
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