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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Oct 21, 2009 21:44:50 GMT -5
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Post by mksmary on Oct 22, 2009 7:43:50 GMT -5
Vyckie -- I think this might un-necessarily restrict your audience. By targetting women and talking about being addicted to the "stories"... Well, it makes it sound a little soap-opera-ish.
I started reading your story because I am interested in religion and patriarchy... Because, basically, I want to understand the appeal. There are a lot of people in the world who still believe what you believed, and you do a fanastic job of putting me inside that mindset, so that I can see why smart people will go down that route. (I keep reading because you're just a damn good writer.)
How do you get that on a button? I dunno. "Patriarchy still exists. Some families choose to live by an ancient code. And some women choose to stop obeying. --- No Longer Qivering."
Something like that? A little too movie-poster?
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Oct 22, 2009 8:27:49 GMT -5
Vyckie -- I think this might un-necessarily restrict your audience. By targetting women and talking about being addicted to the "stories"... Well, it makes it sound a little soap-opera-ish. I started reading your story because I am interested in religion and patriarchy... Because, basically, I want to understand the appeal. There are a lot of people in the world who still believe what you believed, and you do a fanastic job of putting me inside that mindset, so that I can see why smart people will go down that route. (I keep reading because you're just a damn good writer.) How do you get that on a button? I dunno. "Patriarchy still exists. Some families choose to live by an ancient code. And some women choose to stop obeying. --- No Longer Qivering." Something like that? A little too movie-poster? mksmary ~ thanks for the compliment and welcome to the forums! I can see where the text on the button could seem "soap-opera-ish" ~ and you are exactly correct that it's a real challenge to come up with a caption which really tells the essence of what NLQ is all about. So ~ anyone here up to the challenge? Submit your one-line descrption of No Longer Quivering ~ please!If I had such a summary for the website, it would be a tremendous help in attracting new visitors. Thanks in advance.
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 8:33:35 GMT -5
I don't see why you need a catchphrase. Doesn't the title--"No Longer Quivering"--explain what it's all about?
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 8:53:56 GMT -5
Alternatively, most tags I've seen are really straightforward; they'll just say something like, "I support gay marriage." So, why not do something sort of blog-specific... People could have tags that say, "I'm a feminist, and I support No Longer Quivering" or "I'm a Christian, and I support No Longer Quivering." I agree that the language of the current tag sort of undercuts the gravity of what you're trying to do here. Not that it all has to be Very Serious, but I don't really think it's very representative of what you're doing.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Oct 22, 2009 9:16:12 GMT -5
km ~ there are many spots around the web which ask for a one line description when submitting your site ~ that's when it would be helpful to have a more descriptive caption for NLQ. I'm always stumped for what to write ~ you may have noticed that summarizing is not my forte. LOL
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 9:19:03 GMT -5
Okay, I don't know then... Something simple, maybe, about "surviving fundamentalism" and then rejecting it...
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Post by castor on Oct 22, 2009 9:24:52 GMT -5
Oh. This is fun. I think I'm worse at summarizing than you Vyckie. So I shouldn't even bother to try coming up with something... but... yeah I think it's fun. So here I go.
Finding freedom from patriarchy Exposing fundamentalism for what it is I like chocolate cake
One woman’s journey out of fundamentalism Why we left our patriarchal religions Why patriarchy hurts women, men and children Why patriarchy keeps women, men and children from realizing their full humanity Why patriarchy hurts our culture I feel bad when I kill a bug The religious right is pushing their views on our country, read how we are fighting against them (that one is way too long) (exchanging legalism for love? No. That one is too christian)
Ok. I’m done (I wanna go on. But I have lots of things to do. I should stop). This only took a minute, and I SUCK at summarizing. Someone who’s better at it than me will surely come up with something by just brainstorming a bit.
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 9:30:53 GMT -5
finding freedom from fundamentalist Christian patriarchy
(The excessive alliteration was unintended...)
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 10:08:37 GMT -5
I know Tapati wasn't, but neither was Tapati in Quiverfull... Nevertheless, the vast majority of the site is about escaping from Quiverfull fundamentalism. It seems to me that it's probably up to Vyckie whether or not things will stay that way... My own worry about seeing this blog begin to critique fundamentalism within *all religions* (as opposed to the QF focus) has to do with racism/ethnocentrism. I'd hate to see a mostly white forum start condemning Islam or Hinduism or any non-Western religion as flat-out "patriarchy." There are fundamentalist sects within most religions, yes, but I'd hate to see a bunch of (mostly) white people take the lead in shining a light on it in, say, the Islamic world. A focus on QF--with some real honesty about the racism within that movement--would, I think, help to circumvent this problem. I would think, at minimum, you'd need something about fundamentalism in there. I'm not a huge fan of the language of "patriarchy" myself. I prefer something a little more...intersectional like, say, kyriarchy: myecdysis.blogspot.com/2008/04/accepting-kyriarchy-not-apologies.htmlThat said, I know that patriarchy in particular is a buzzword within Quiverfull, so I also understand its relationship to this particular blog. It's a value system that is actually *upheld by name* within QF--but not necessarily in many other religious traditions. Oh, Vyckie, I'm sure this makes you *super excited* about the fact that you solicited feedback!
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 10:16:52 GMT -5
Basically, I think "fundamentalism" is probably the best description--and most inclusive word that could be used here. That said... Because there are forums that deal with fundamentalisms in most faiths, I would be wary of taking away the QF focus. Which is not to say that I object to Tapati's series. Of course I don't. But I don't think it's disrespectful to Tapati--or that it detracts from her series--to be honest about the actual focus of the blog. Her series falls *within* that focus, of course, inasmuch as it tries to point out common ground between women entrenched in various fundamentalist religions.
Also, I keep thinking "What about the men?" Sorry, I know that's considered the *worst* thing for a feminist to do, but I can't help thinking... well, continuing to think that many men are also damaged by movements like QF. I'm heartened by things like the dialogue with Frank Schaeffer, but I also wonder... What about forging partnerships with other male-inclusive organizations that critique the Christian Right, like Ex-Gay Watch or Americans for the Separation of Church and State?
Sorry, I know I'm getting into an annoying meta-discussion about purposes and breadth and goals. And I don't mean to. But I do think that titles and catchphrases and things tend to...delineate those things *for people...* So, it's important to think all of these things through at the outset.
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 10:36:49 GMT -5
Sorry for the serial commenting, but... One more thing. I was explicit about "Christian patriarchy" precisely because I think this blog is largely about a certain *kind* of patriarchy. Thinking over it, though, it might have been better to call it "religious patriarchy." And, honestly, I don't buy into Patriarchy as some kind of huge, looming system that oppresses us all as Class Woman in the exact same way. So, I don't like seeing "patriarchy" used in an extremely broad way--or to describe the oppression that All Women Everywhere face. That erases our differences. Put more simply, I just don't buy into the idea of the Radical Feminist Nation or of some kind of "sisterhood." I think sexism happens to us in different social planes--and intersects with oppressions such as racism, heterosexism, cissexism, classism, ableism... I am okay with the use of "patriarchy" as a descriptor for certain kinds of religious fundamentalism. But... But... This blog is also about escaping *religious patriarchy* and losing that focus would be a shame.
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 10:47:04 GMT -5
Well, obviously. So sorry if I was too "unsubmissive" there for you, leathercouch. I haz thoughts... Vyckie asked about our thoughts. So, there you have it...
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Oct 22, 2009 10:50:29 GMT -5
Oh, Vyckie, I'm sure this makes you *super excited* about the fact that you solicited feedback! No ~ really, km ~ I'm glad for all the input here I agree that the summary needs to focus on Quiverfull in particular. I also think that the caption needs to be sensational in order to grab the attention of viewers and compel them to click the button. Maybe something along these lines: Why would a thinking woman accept a life of submission and near-constant pregnancies? Insiders expose Quiverfull: a militant lifestyle where people are used to advance the Kingdom of God, then discarded like spent ammunition ... The Quiverfull vision of godly living is simple, beautiful and appealing. But what's the true cost of a "perfect family" ~ and who pays the price?None of these are quite right ...
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 10:56:51 GMT -5
I like where you're going with it, though... It just needs fewer words.
And, frankly, you know, I'm fine with negative feedback. Just don't particularly appreciate backhanded slights. And, yeah, I'm talkin' to you, leathercouch. So, feel free to be a little more upfront about any problems you may or may not be having with me.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Oct 22, 2009 11:04:53 GMT -5
Let's keep working on this ~ I think with a little more thinking, we can come up with something exceptional. I'm off to pick up the kids from school and take them to stay with Warren for the weekend. He's actually not such a pain now that he doesn't have the authority to make the kids miserable and they only have to see him every other weekend. He spends the whole time catering to them now because he wants to convince them that he's not such a bad guy. Which is good. Anyway ~ I get a three day weekend ~ hooray. Going to spend time relaxing at John's house. Since I'll be away from the computer for a while this afternoon, I'm hoping to not come back to a major clash between km and leathercouch ~ let's keep this thread on topic please.
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 11:16:29 GMT -5
Sure. If I misread your previous comment as a backhanded slight implying that I was being too overbearing there, then I apologize. I'm not convinced I misread you, but okay then... Moving on.
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Post by leathercouch on Oct 22, 2009 11:23:21 GMT -5
The blog and forum are so important, and I'm not going to distract from that, even if it was unintentional on my part. I'm too tired and too busy to argue on the internet.
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 11:29:15 GMT -5
I'm too tired and too busy to argue on the internet. Right, then. You martyr you. *just sloughing off as a Bad Member who will undoubtedly lose karma points!* One who can't understand the Very Important Nature of this blog. It's possible our personalities just clash... Or maybe snark isn't really welcome here. Hmm... Oh, well. I'll shut up then. *goes and smites self just for the hell of it*
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Post by km on Oct 22, 2009 11:34:15 GMT -5
Anyway, Vyckie, apologies for the derail.
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Post by verklempt on Oct 22, 2009 12:16:00 GMT -5
I'm too tired and too busy to argue on the internet. Right, then. You martyr you. *just sloughing off as a Bad Member who will undoubtedly lose karma points!* One who can't understand the Very Important Nature of this blog. It's possible our personalities just clash... Or maybe snark isn't really welcome here. Hmm... Oh, well. I'll shut up then. *goes and smites self just for the hell of it* Im so glad that I send people here to read crap posts like this one.
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Post by xara on Oct 22, 2009 13:32:51 GMT -5
Maybe having a couple of different badges for use depending on where you are posting them would be helpful. They could have slightly different focus depending on the audience of where they are being used and what is likely to draw that audience in. I realize that requires extra work but you would probably get better exposure that way.
I am not exactly sure what each should emphasize but we tackle so many overlapping issues here that there are certainly more than one approach that can be taken. I do know that for me the existing badge would not bring me in.
I am not sure why, but it wouldn't. I originally found the site from a comment Vyckie posted on an AlterNet article. I think the article had to do with those of us who choose to be child free. But her comments interested me and I came and looked at her blog. I have stuck around because of the awesome community she has managed to create among people, mostly women, from such different backgrounds. I am truly impressed by the respect we each have for each other even when we don't agree. That is something I have not found on most sites that discuss these kinds of issues and it is special.
I am not sure if that makes it easier or harder on you Vyckie, but since you asked for feedback, I am posting my initial thoughts.
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Post by mksmary on Oct 22, 2009 16:14:58 GMT -5
Why would a thinking woman accept a life of submission and near-constant pregnancies?
That's certainly the question that got me reading!
Insiders expose Quiverfull: a militant lifestyle where people are used to advance the Kingdom of God, then discarded like spent ammunition ...
A little too strong, I think. It risks driving off anyone who still sympathizes with that movement, and those are the people your site could most help.
The Quiverfull vision of godly living is simple, beautiful and appealing. But what's the true cost of a "perfect family" ~ and who pays the price?
I think this hits all the right notes. If I were to try to boil it down even further for button purposes, I'd go with...
"A perfect family, a Godly life... But who pays the price?"
I think that would draw me in.
So I like something like that for the button.
For a description, you can probably go a little longer...
"Why would a thinking woman accept a life of submission and near-constant pregnancies? First-hand stories by women who chose patriarchy, and then chose freedom."
Still a little sensationalistic, isn't it? I must have a natural bent that way. But you do have a dramatic story.
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Post by verklempt on Oct 22, 2009 16:45:58 GMT -5
I would do a black background with white old school type writer font with No Longer Quivering-Living free and loving it or something concise and upbeat.
If we could make it a click through to Vyckies life story avatar kind of thing that I could put in my signature to use on the many mothering/women forums I belong to, that would be even better.
Keep it simple, no?
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Post by arietty on Oct 22, 2009 16:56:29 GMT -5
"A perfect family, a Godly life... But who pays the price?" I think that is excellent. I would immediately click on such a thing as I think a lot of people interested in cults, religion, women/family issues would. It sums it up without being overly sensationalist. I guess I'm not keen on "why women can't stop reading the stories at NLQ" because.. I'm more than a story to feed people's voyeurism. I have posted some very personal things in the forums and it wasn't for anyone's entertainment. However that's just my little tetchy reaction. No point being too fussy about it all. KM the word accepted and reverenced by QF women is patriarchy. We don't need to rewrite this word. It features in all the literature. I would hope that this forum and blog remains very readable to people within the QF culture. As to the comments on other religions.. well the Krishna movement as I understand it is basically a white first world religion. Any future contributions from people coming out of other religions will be their personal story not someone from the outside pointing fingers. I doubt Vyckie will be analyzing Islam in a series of posts but I would not be surprised to have a contributor who left a fundamentalist patriarchal life in Islam posting a series one day.
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