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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Oct 22, 2009 19:11:51 GMT -5
How's this? I can make more when I have some extra time. I want to say that I'm really sad to see that leathercouch has deleted her account. It is important here that we all feel free and safe to express our viewpoints and ideas. Please make an effort to keep a respectful and supportive tone when posting here at NLQ. I realize that misunderstandings do happen ~ add to that the fact that we've all been wounded and traumatized to one degree or another and for that reason, snark and aggression are usually not appropriate on this forum. I don't want to create an atmosphere in which we're all walking on eggs ~ but I do think it's reasonable to expect members to show consideration for the sensitivity of those who are here for support and healing ~ and not necessarily debate.
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Post by xara on Oct 23, 2009 13:05:39 GMT -5
Vyckie, I like this design better. This one would interest me whereas the first design didn't appeal at all to me.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Oct 23, 2009 15:32:09 GMT -5
Vyckie, I like this design better. This one would interest me whereas the first design didn't appeal at all to me. Hooray I plan to make several different badges when I have more time ~ so if anyone has a particular request, post it here, okay? verklempt ~ I'll have to figure out how to make a signature thing work ~ would I use html for that?
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Post by verklempt on Oct 23, 2009 16:21:08 GMT -5
Vyckie, I like this design better. This one would interest me whereas the first design didn't appeal at all to me. Hooray I plan to make several different badges when I have more time ~ so if anyone has a particular request, post it here, okay? verklempt ~ I'll have to figure out how to make a signature thing work ~ would I use html for that? Let me see what I can dig up, Vyckie. Im pretty sure its HTML coding but I want to double check.
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Post by verklempt on Oct 23, 2009 17:06:03 GMT -5
Hooray I plan to make several different badges when I have more time ~ so if anyone has a particular request, post it here, okay? verklempt ~ I'll have to figure out how to make a signature thing work ~ would I use html for that? Let me see what I can dig up, Vyckie. Im pretty sure its HTML coding but I want to double check. Okay, so I found that if I created a banner ad and then used the basic IMG/URL links, I could make something people can click on to get to the .com site. Hope you pick up some readership. this is the one I made. you are welcome to use it if you like it.
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 10:21:11 GMT -5
I would do a black background with white old school type writer font with No Longer Quivering-Living free and loving it or something concise and upbeat. That seems really dishonest to me. This blog, while hopeful, is not particularly upbeat in its subject matter. It's about suffering and abuse in an oppressive lifestyle.
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 10:23:12 GMT -5
KM the word accepted and reverenced by QF women is patriarchy. We don't need to rewrite this word. It features in all the literature. I would hope that this forum and blog remains very readable to people within the QF culture. I know, that's one of the points I was making, though in a sort of roundabout and unclear way, I realize.
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 10:37:32 GMT -5
Vyckie: I understand what you're saying, and I regret that that happened. I wasn't actually trying to provoke a fight. If she meant to say I was an asshole, then I just wanted to get it out there and then move on. She was obviously reacting against what she perceived as my overbearing comments. I can see how they came across that way--honestly, I was just struggling to find words to say what I meant to say, not wanting to force you to mindmeld with my politics/feminism/whatever else...
I can respect your request for civility, but I have to be clear that I don't believe that most of us in this world have the privilege of "safety" in most of our communities. Whether because of race privilege, heterosexual privilege, class privilege, or whatever else, "safety" is not something that most of us go into communities expecting to find. It's a privilege for some. That said, I understand that you want this to be a healing environment (For my part, I'm not sure that "healing" is synonymous with "conflict free", but well...).
As an orientationally confrontational person who was damaged by pleas for submission, civility, and White Middle Class Parlor Manners within fundamentalism, I personally find passive aggressive slights and unwillingness to openly disagree patently *unsafe.* I'm fine with being called out, and I never said I couldn't be an asshole sometimes. But then I'm not someone who joins any community expecting safety of any kind. I do, however, appreciate honest and open dialogue that doesn't insult my intelligence (as some of the previous posts absolutely did)--in which people openly say what they mean to say. I'm absolutely fine with being called out/criticized/disagreed with--but I don't like it happening in a backhanded way.
To wit, that's why I made some sarcastic comments about the "karma" system. Seems like a built in system for distinguishing the "cool" people from the "uncool" people and ensuring that criticism happens in a passive way. I can understand how that could be necessary for people who struggle with confrontation and expressing anger (and I know that this is something that QF women are explicitly told *not* to express), but it's... Well, as someone who does *not* struggle with those things, it's a little unnerving.
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Post by dandydeluxe on Oct 24, 2009 11:02:49 GMT -5
Who says you need to be a Christian fundy to be mentally ill?
...and the wheels on the bus go round and round
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 11:16:50 GMT -5
And I continue to be unnerved by the way that "mental illness" continues to be wielded as an insult around here.
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Post by verklempt on Oct 24, 2009 11:20:21 GMT -5
I would do a black background with white old school type writer font with No Longer Quivering-Living free and loving it or something concise and upbeat. That seems really dishonest to me. This blog, while hopeful, is not particularly upbeat in its subject matter. It's about suffering and abuse in an oppressive lifestyle. Im sorry you feel that way. I read these stories, and while heart breaking, the fact that these women have come through it and are now helping others speaks of hope to me. Yes, even up beat. If there were not hope or positivity in the message of the blog, why bother? Is that the point? That life is better on the outside? Im not ashamed to say that my life is light years happier and far more up beat than when I was trapped in a fundie lifestyle.
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Post by verklempt on Oct 24, 2009 11:24:20 GMT -5
Vyckie: I understand what you're saying, and I regret that that happened. I wasn't actually trying to provoke a fight. If she meant to say I was an asshole, then I just wanted to get it out there and then move on. She was obviously reacting against what she perceived as my overbearing comments. I can see how they came across that way--honestly, I was just struggling to find words to say what I meant to say, not wanting to force you to mindmeld with my politics/feminism/whatever else... I can respect your request for civility, but I have to be clear that I don't believe that most of us in this world have the privilege of "safety" in most of our communities. Whether because of race privilege, heterosexual privilege, class privilege, or whatever else, "safety" is not something that most of us go into communities expecting to find. It's a privilege for some. That said, I understand that you want this to be a healing environment (For my part, I'm not sure that "healing" is synonymous with "conflict free", but well...). As an orientationally confrontational person who was damaged by pleas for submission, civility, and White Middle Class Parlor Manners within fundamentalism, I personally find passive aggressive slights and unwillingness to openly disagree patently *unsafe.* I'm fine with being called out, and I never said I couldn't be an asshole sometimes. But then I'm not someone who joins any community expecting safety of any kind. I do, however, appreciate honest and open dialogue that doesn't insult my intelligence (as some of the previous posts absolutely did)--in which people openly say what they mean to say. I'm absolutely fine with being called out/criticized/disagreed with--but I don't like it happening in a backhanded way. To wit, that's why I made some sarcastic comments about the "karma" system. Seems like a built in system for distinguishing the "cool" people from the "uncool" people and ensuring that criticism happens in a passive way. I can understand how that could be necessary for people who struggle with confrontation and expressing anger (and I know that this is something that QF women are explicitly told *not* to express), but it's... Well, as someone who does *not* struggle with those things, it's a little unnerving. If Leathercouch wanted to call you an asshole, she would have done so. You chose to read her replies, her disagreement with your opinion as an attack on you. That is your issue, not hers.
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 11:27:24 GMT -5
verklempt: Sure, it's possible, I guess... Your opinion, of course, but thank you for it.
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Post by kisekileia on Oct 24, 2009 11:28:30 GMT -5
Along with KM's excellent points about the importance of honesty, I want to also point out that refusing to engage with people honestly is intrinsically oppressive to people with disabilities that impair their ability to read subtle social cues. I didn't, however, see leathercouch's comments, so I don't know whether they were a refusal to engage with KM honestly or not.
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 11:31:00 GMT -5
kisekileia: Thank you. Exactly. This is, in part, what I'm dealing with as someone with developmental dyspraxia. Thank you for pointing it out.
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 11:32:57 GMT -5
verklempt: Maybe, but I think of "upbeat" as kind of lightweight. And I think there's a lot of gravity in what's being discussed here. I agree that it's hopeful, but I don't think everything is all roses and smiles for everyone either. Just my opinion.
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Post by verklempt on Oct 24, 2009 11:36:37 GMT -5
Along with KM's excellent points about the importance of honesty, I want to also point out that refusing to engage with people honestly is intrinsically oppressive to people with disabilities that impair their ability to read subtle social cues. I didn't, however, see leathercouch's comments, so I don't know whether they were a refusal to engage with KM honestly or not. Shannon was pretty clear in what she wished to communicate to Vyckie and I believe it was also communicated via email. What KM opts to read into things is on her. *shrug*
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Post by verklempt on Oct 24, 2009 11:39:40 GMT -5
verklempt: Maybe, but I think of "upbeat" as kind of lightweight. And I think there's a lot of gravity in what's being discussed here. I agree that it's hopeful, but I don't think everything is all roses and smiles for everyone either. Just my opinion. Perhaps after years of carrying the weight of the world via the fundie lifestyle, light weight doesnt seem so bad. I see the gravity and I see the joy in the lives of those who have walked away. Its is possible to maintain a balance and that I what I would hope to offer those who's lives have been swayed by constant oppression.
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 11:42:01 GMT -5
verklempt: It's impossible to impute actual tone from short messages like that. Given the fact that the author never clarified her meaning to me (and only expressed exasperation), we're going to have to agree to disagree on our differing interpretations.
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Post by verklempt on Oct 24, 2009 11:52:04 GMT -5
verklempt: It's impossible to impute actual tone from short messages like that. Given the fact that the author never clarified her meaning to me (and only expressed exasperation), we're going to have to agree to disagree on our differing interpretations. You 'imputed tone' fine enough to launch an attack on her, including uncalled for references to submission and martyrs. Both hot button words in the ex-fundie world. I will agree to disagree with you on this. I dont see any other options.
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 11:59:28 GMT -5
You 'imputed tone' fine enough to launch an attack on her, including uncalled for references to submission and martyrs. You are right about my choice of words. I apologize for that (You're right about the use of "martyr." Honestly, I didn't even think about that as a hot button word at the time, though I admit that I used the word "submission" intentionally. Because I think that culture is what spawns some of this antipathy to honest confrontation. That said, the way that I used it was cruel.). fwiw, I wish she would come back. I think she--and you--probably read much more hostility in my tone than I intended. Certainly, I share some responsibility for the way that my words come across, but to be clear, I never hoped or intended to run anyone out of town. I saw it as a minor disagreement, and I just hoped she would clarify what she was saying. I was annoyed that she was refusing to do that. In retrospect, it's her right to do it, of course--and explain/refuse-to-explain whatever she wants. I like neat closure. I like dealing with things quickly so we can have them out in the open and then move on. I am sorry for pushing too aggressively to have this resolved according to my style. I should have just let it go.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Oct 24, 2009 11:59:33 GMT -5
I can respect your request for civility, but I have to be clear that I don't believe that most of us in this world have the privilege of "safety" in most of our communities. Whether because of race privilege, heterosexual privilege, class privilege, or whatever else, "safety" is not something that most of us go into communities expecting to find. It's a privilege for some. That said, I understand that you want this to be a healing environment (For my part, I'm not sure that "healing" is synonymous with "conflict free", but well...). km ~ I get this totally ~ I really do. That's why I am always hesitant in my role as "moderator" here ~ and in fact, I think I'm pretty lousy at it, but somehow we have managed to create an environment here in which women (and a few men) who are coming from very different perspectives and a variety of personality types do discuss these issues on more than just a superficial level ~ and mostly we've been able to do it "civilly" ~ and by that, I mean we don't feel like we are being personally attacked or put on the defensive. On the whole, there is a presumption of good will which underlies and moderates the tone of discussion here. We are all of us, people in a predicament ~ so we come together with mutual respect and a feeling of connectedness. For myself ~ I feel like I can relate to each of the various perspectives represented here because at one time or another, I've felt and/or believed the same way. I appreciate your willingness to be called out when someone believes you are being "an asshole" ~ but I guess I have to say that it's really not appropriate here. Passive aggression is not encouraged either. I don't think that I am being delusional when I say that the NLQ forums are indeed a place where we can openly and honestly discuss these issues in depth from a variety of differing perspectives ~ but we do also share a certain commonality which allows us to have these discussions and at the same time feel "safe" in expressing our particular take, knowing that in the likelihood that others will see things differently, they will not respond with disrespect ~ noone is going to call another member here "an asshole." I am constantly being called "courageous" for speaking up and telling my story openly and candidly ~ and for me, it seems like no big deal as I have no problem with putting myself "out there" and when criticism comes ~ I deal with it. Sometimes, I blow off the critics with a "consider the source" attitude ~ but for the most part, I want to honestly evaluate if there is any validity to the criticism and if so, I want to learn from others and grow in my understanding of myself and my world. I believe you are much the same ~ relatively thick-skinned ~ and so it may be a little difficult for you to realize that not everyone is that way. There is a member here on the forum whom I've contacted about sharing her story as a QF daughter ~ I wanted to encourage her and I expressed my hope that in sharing her story with the NLQ readers ~ receiving feedback and encouragement ~ in that way, she might find a great deal of validation and healing from the trauma which she endured as a result of her parents' adoption of the QF/P worldview and lifestyle. So with great trepidation and plenty of anonymity, this wounded young woman wrote her story ~ and I can only imagine how painful it must have been to recall her experience in great detail ~ when I read it, I cried ~ I was stunned and shaken, and I thought, "This is the sort of painful honesty which QF moms need to hear ~ better to learn the truth of how quivering daughters feel from one who has escaped (though she still suffers) and is willing to speak up ~ than from their own daughters years later when they finally find their own voices." This story is especially powerful. So, I was more than disappointed to check my email Thursday evening after the scuffle on this thread ~ and read that the story has been withdrawn ~ the NLQ member no longer feels the safety which we've worked fairly hard to maintain here and she is no longer willing to openly share her story. Ugh. I know it's a fine line ~ and as I've said, I don't want to create an atmosphere of walking on eggs. We do have members on this forum who are quite opinionated and outspoken ~ we also have plenty who are equally opinionated and yet, timid and touchy. I would say that I'm expecting the impossible here ~ except that we have managed to create a safe and supportive place here and I know that it's not asking too much to say, "Let's keep it that way."
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Post by verklempt on Oct 24, 2009 12:02:36 GMT -5
You 'imputed tone' fine enough to launch an attack on her, including uncalled for references to submission and martyrs. You are right about my choice of words. I apologize for that (You're right about the use of "martyr." Honestly, I didn't even think about that as a hot button word at the time, though I admit that I used the word "submission" intentionally. Because I think that culture is what spawns some of this antipathy to honest confrontation. That said, the way that I used it was cruel.). fwiw, I wish she would come back. I think she--and you--probably read much more hostility in my tone than I intended. Certainly, I share some responsibility for the way that my words come across, but to be clear, I never hoped or intended to run anyone out of town. I saw it as a minor disagreement, and I just hoped she would clarify what she was saying. I was annoyed that she was refusing to do that. In retrospect, it's her right to do it, of course--and explain/refuse-to-explain whatever she wants. I like neat closure. I like dealing with things quickly so we can have them out in the open and then move on. I am sorry for pushing too aggressively to have this resolved according to my style. I should have just let it go. That I can appreciate. Ill let it go now.
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Post by kisekileia on Oct 24, 2009 12:10:06 GMT -5
Vyckie, obviously you are right that it's a very serious matter when someone feels unsafe like that. But the other side of the issue is that when a person needs direct feedback in order to understand what is going on socially, and they cannot get that feedback, they are not safe and do not feel safe. So people need to strive to be both honest and respectful.
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Post by km on Oct 24, 2009 12:10:35 GMT -5
So, I was more than disappointed to check my email Thursday evening after the scuffle on this thread ~ and read that the story has been withdrawn ~ the NLQ member no longer feels the safety which we've worked fairly hard to maintain here and she is no longer willing to openly share her story. That's...really disappointing. I hope she'll read this thread and reconsider. I can't imagine anyone here being harsh or cruel in response to such a story. And you're right, I do tend to expect people to be relatively thick-skinned. I'll try to tone that down. I mostly frequent rather...eh...snarkier forums, so I appreciate your clarity about what is needed here.
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