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Post by arietty on Nov 14, 2009 18:27:43 GMT -5
The other daughter is in Australia and apparently not interested in their religion at all, has had a muslim boyfriend or something like that. She seems to have just gotten as far away as possible.
I guess in some ways that is convenient to the Jeubs because you can just say, 'oh she is overseas' and not get closely questioned. They put themselves out there by doing these shows and presenting themselves as QF evangelists so questioning them about these lost daughters is perfectly okay IMHO. I know families have problems, a child who turns their back and has little to do with their family is not limited to religious oppression.. and I am not one to condemn either side when little is known. BUT if you are going to present yourself on television as a shining example of God's Plan For Every Family then you are publicly accountable about for such things. They didn't see their grandchild Alicia had until he was nearly 3 as I understand it--that is completely dysfunctional. That was their choice, it wasn't that Alicia refused to allow them to see him.
I don't know.. I'm sure the mom would have been questioned by friends about this, "don't you want to see your own grandchild?" QF people are not all the same, I have known several QF families who embraced their out of wedlock grandchildren and daughters. It flies in the face of maternal instinct to do otherwise.
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Post by xara on Nov 14, 2009 20:59:19 GMT -5
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Post by ambrosia on Nov 14, 2009 21:53:17 GMT -5
May I recommend tinyurl.com. Makes those ginormous urls manageable
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Post by margybargy on Nov 15, 2009 7:47:29 GMT -5
The other daughter is in Australia and apparently not interested in their religion at all, has had a muslim boyfriend or something like that. She seems to have just gotten as far away as possible. I guess in some ways that is convenient to the Jeubs because you can just say, 'oh she is overseas' and not get closely questioned. They put themselves out there by doing these shows and presenting themselves as QF evangelists so questioning them about these lost daughters is perfectly okay IMHO. I know families have problems, a child who turns their back and has little to do with their family is not limited to religious oppression.. and I am not one to condemn either side when little is known. BUT if you are going to present yourself on television as a shining example of God's Plan For Every Family then you are publicly accountable about for such things. They didn't see their grandchild Alicia had until he was nearly 3 as I understand it--that is completely dysfunctional. That was their choice, it wasn't that Alicia refused to allow them to see him. I don't know.. I'm sure the mom would have been questioned by friends about this, "don't you want to see your own grandchild?" QF people are not all the same, I have known several QF families who embraced their out of wedlock grandchildren and daughters. It flies in the face of maternal instinct to do otherwise. Thank you, arietty. So here are the facts as I understand them. Alicia, the oldest, had a child out-of-wedlock, was estranged from the family, and now has returned home with 3yo grandchild in tow. This estrangement ocurred at the insistence of her step-father, Chris Jeub. Alissa, the second oldest, has run far away to Australia. Good for her. Hopefully, she's fallen in with some emotionally healthy, clear-thinking people who have their priorities in order. And, ITA with your point that a lot of QF'ers would handle the situation way better than the Jeubs have. And with your other point that the Jeubs put themselves out there as a model family. Therefore, they should be questioned on the results of their parenting/lifestyle. Clearly, things did not turn out as intended with the two oldest daughters. It's very frustrating to me that they don't stop and think where did we go wrong. They put it all on the kids. They refuse to address the problems in a constructive way. Sorry for beating this to death. It's just really fascinating to me. I just don't get it, so I'm obsessively trying to figure it out.
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Post by rosa on Nov 15, 2009 10:42:35 GMT -5
Is Alicia actually back at home? I thought she was just "returned" as in "not-estranged" - the stuff she posted at TWoP just said she visited them. Also, she seems to think her mom had no input in the decision to kick her out, which if it's true is just another example of how terrible patriarchialism is for families.
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Post by margybargy on Nov 15, 2009 11:27:48 GMT -5
Is Alicia actually back at home? I thought she was just "returned" as in "not-estranged" - the stuff she posted at TWoP just said she visited them. Also, she seems to think her mom had no input in the decision to kick her out, which if it's true is just another example of how terrible patriarchialism is for families. Hmmm....not sure. They're not very forthcoming in their tv appearances or on their website. They seem to hi-light the QF-friendly and bury the rest. I didn't find much when I googled.
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Post by mrscook1973 on Nov 15, 2009 13:56:56 GMT -5
I seem to notice a pattern with these QF families. There seems to be a lot of antagonism between the stepfathers and older daughters who were not a product of the marriage. Vyckie's husband made Angel's life miserable with his criticism and impossible standards, and Chris Jeub cuts his stepdaughters out of the family. It's really sad!
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Post by tapati on Nov 15, 2009 15:46:05 GMT -5
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Post by arietty on Nov 18, 2009 2:45:03 GMT -5
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Post by margybargy on Nov 18, 2009 7:56:05 GMT -5
I shouldn't read this stuff, I really shouldn't. But I just can't help myself. One commenter said this: "Don’t think I’m against large families….No, I love them and I always encourage a family who is considering more children to go for it and not cut their seed because of what society or the world is saying. Go with what God wants for your family. With full force!! But if they have no desire to have more, then why are they still having more? And then why is the Quiver full community judging their hearts. Especially if they are seeking the Lord and not really wanting kids. How do they know their heart. We are not hanging in their living room when they are with the Lord. Judging families who are not having many children is wrong. Or if we have lots we should never think “we are better” or that we are doing God’s ultimate will. This is where I have my own issues….the judgement in this community. I know it because I have heard the comments made in “love” “They are not wanting to surrender their selfish hearts to the Lord in this area” What?
How do they know what God has been telling them. This is not right to judge this way."Okay, so this guy's(or gal?) comment is pretty decent for a fundie. At least he's(she's?) willing to stay out of other people's business to a certain extent. But the comment illustrates a problem I have with Christianity. Somehow you're supposed to figure out if you're following God, dogma, society, your own selfish desires, or...oh no...Satan. Then if your life winds up in a ditch, then you only thought you were following God. You were mistaken, but nobody else could see that you were mistaken. You were going to Church with people doing the same exact things as you, but you were mistaken and they weren't. I don't get it!!! It's all so vague and mysterious. How do they expect a person to figure all that out? Not to toot my own horn, but I've got pretty decent decision-making skills. I just try to go on facts and things seem to work out pretty well. If I see myself heading into a ditch, I change course. When I try to decode this gobbledy-gook, it seems to boil down to this: Do all the Christian stuff only to the extent that it makes Christianity look good. Don't follow stuff to the letter if it makes Chrisitianity look bad even if you're specifically told to follow stuff to the letter. If facts get in the way of Chrisitianity, ignore them unless ignoring them could make Christianity look bad. If you follow this Christianity stuff and it doesn't work out, you're on your own. I'm just trying to understand these people. Am I making sense?
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Post by AustinAvery on Nov 18, 2009 10:57:37 GMT -5
I'm just trying to understand these people. Am I making sense? You make sense. But it is hard to make sense out of nonsense. It would be easy if God spoke directly to us in a forum where others could see him speaking to us, but since he only speaks to each individual in each individual's head, there is the constant problem of humans making decisions about which communications with God are and are not legitimate. This quote sums it up well for me: Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. – Lucius Annaeus Seneca Roman Philosopher and Statesman (c. 3 BC - AD 65)
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Post by margybargy on Nov 18, 2009 14:37:24 GMT -5
I'm just trying to understand these people. Am I making sense? You make sense. But it is hard to make sense out of nonsense. It would be easy if God spoke directly to us in a forum where others could see him speaking to us, but since he only speaks to each individual in each individual's head, there is the constant problem of humans making decisions about which communications with God are and are not legitimate. This quote sums it up well for me: Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. – Lucius Annaeus Seneca Roman Philosopher and Statesman (c. 3 BC - AD 65) Thanks for the sanity check. I like your quote.
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Post by arietty on Nov 18, 2009 17:47:57 GMT -5
But the comment illustrates a problem I have with Christianity. Somehow you're supposed to figure out if you're following God, dogma, society, your own selfish desires, or...oh no...Satan. Then if your life winds up in a ditch, then you only thought you were following God. You were mistaken, but nobody else could see that you were mistaken. You were going to Church with people doing the same exact things as you, but you were mistaken and they weren't. I don't get it!!! I believe the real problem is the idea that there is a perfect decision you can make about any issue and that making that prefect decision is being in God's will. Making the wrong decision makes it harder for God to make sure stuff works out right. In my Christian view God is concerned with people's hearts not people's offspring quantity or real estate choices or jobs. Just get on with life and make decisions based on the information available at the time, what seems best to suit you and yours.. God does not have a perfect car, job, house, mission, partner for you. You don't have to decide which one is God's will. God is not following you around waiting for you to magically pick the right car to buy. It's such a 1st world way of looking at God.. we are RICH in choices, absolutely luxuriously rich. Most of the world does not have the kinds of choices we do and has to make do with what is right in front of them, not buy books all about discerning God's will so they can revel in the mega-mart of choices we have. For some people there is a lot of fear that if they make the wrong choices bad stuff will happen because they will not have discerned God's will. This is not spirituality, this is superstition.
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Post by margybargy on Nov 19, 2009 4:44:10 GMT -5
But the comment illustrates a problem I have with Christianity. Somehow you're supposed to figure out if you're following God, dogma, society, your own selfish desires, or...oh no...Satan. Then if your life winds up in a ditch, then you only thought you were following God. You were mistaken, but nobody else could see that you were mistaken. You were going to Church with people doing the same exact things as you, but you were mistaken and they weren't. I don't get it!!! I believe the real problem is the idea that there is a perfect decision you can make about any issue and that making that prefect decision is being in God's will. Making the wrong decision makes it harder for God to make sure stuff works out right. In my Christian view God is concerned with people's hearts not people's offspring quantity or real estate choices or jobs. Just get on with life and make decisions based on the information available at the time, what seems best to suit you and yours.. God does not have a perfect car, job, house, mission, partner for you. You don't have to decide which one is God's will. God is not following you around waiting for you to magically pick the right car to buy. It's such a 1st world way of looking at God.. we are RICH in choices, absolutely luxuriously rich. Most of the world does not have the kinds of choices we do and has to make do with what is right in front of them, not buy books all about discerning God's will so they can revel in the mega-mart of choices we have. For some people there is a lot of fear that if they make the wrong choices bad stuff will happen because they will not have discerned God's will. This is not spirituality, this is superstition. Very good points. Believers who follow this perfectionistic approach will also have a lot of difficulty backing off bad decisions. I mean if a woman believes she married the one perfect man for her, chosen by God and all the rest - how on earth does she justify a divorce if things go wrong? And if the parents, church were involved in the husband-picking, too, then they were all wrong about God's will. Now that would be a hard thing to admit, especially if you are part of a judgmental church community, and trying to look good.
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Post by arietty on Nov 19, 2009 16:43:16 GMT -5
I believe the real problem is the idea that there is a perfect decision you can make about any issue and that making that prefect decision is being in God's will. Making the wrong decision makes it harder for God to make sure stuff works out right. In my Christian view God is concerned with people's hearts not people's offspring quantity or real estate choices or jobs. Just get on with life and make decisions based on the information available at the time, what seems best to suit you and yours.. God does not have a perfect car, job, house, mission, partner for you. You don't have to decide which one is God's will. God is not following you around waiting for you to magically pick the right car to buy. It's such a 1st world way of looking at God.. we are RICH in choices, absolutely luxuriously rich. Most of the world does not have the kinds of choices we do and has to make do with what is right in front of them, not buy books all about discerning God's will so they can revel in the mega-mart of choices we have. For some people there is a lot of fear that if they make the wrong choices bad stuff will happen because they will not have discerned God's will. This is not spirituality, this is superstition. Very good points. Believers who follow this perfectionistic approach will also have a lot of difficulty backing off bad decisions. I mean if a woman believes she married the one perfect man for her, chosen by God and all the rest - how on earth does she justify a divorce if things go wrong? And if the parents, church were involved in the husband-picking, too, then they were all wrong about God's will. Now that would be a hard thing to admit, especially if you are part of a judgmental church community, and trying to look good. Indeed margy is very very hard to admit you are wrong. My QF friend has heard sooooo many things as being God's Perfect Will or Voice (even the gender of unborn children) as has her husband and the reality is they are almost always wrong if by wrong you mean it never turned out that way. Of course if you say that God has told you you are having a girl and you have a boy.. and then another 3 boys (all the time proclaiming that god has told you that it is a girl) when you finally DO have a girl you can say: "God's timing is perfect!" "See we just had to be patient because we WERE having a girl!" Yes, true story. Lots of other wacky stuff that they either bleep over and conveniently forget OR they blame the lack of fulfillment of on each other or the church being "in disobedience". But the picture you paint is a very tragic one. How indeed do you go against all your fears and your parents and church choosing someone who is GOD'S WILL for you.. how do you even say that he is not good for you? Maybe you are supposed to be refined by the fire of his anger. The daughter's stories are only just starting to come out. In the coming years I am sure we will read a lot more of them.
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Post by nowisee on Nov 20, 2009 12:17:11 GMT -5
I saw the program and was so utterly moved. I was dangerously close to being involved in a very similar "movement" about 30 years ago, and hearing your story made me realize how fortunate I am that it didn't happen to me. Be strong and don't give in when people try to pull you back with guilt. This is a tyrannical system that enslaves women, torments children, and rewards men. How sad.
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Post by luvmyblessings on Nov 25, 2009 14:28:36 GMT -5
Dear Vykkie, I am sorry for what you have had to endure. What a shame that the QF ideas were twisted in your case. If the family unit falls apart because of practicing the quiverfull movement as you call it, then the man was obviously not doing his part in the qf teachings that I have read of husbands love your wives as christ loved the church. I haven't listened to all the QF movement as you call it material but have listened to above rubies, vision forum, sm davis and others and find a different message in them then you seemed to have found. Probably based on family dynamics. All the things I have read or listened to have been "husbands love your wives" mentality treat her wtih gentleness, give yourself up for her, protect her. So I am not sure how you saw the wives submit to your husbands abuses and anger type thing. It is obvious that the husbands that you speak of are not doing their proper role in the teaching. I am not part of any so called QF movement for the very reason of the fact that a "movement" puts everyone in the same box as yours. I do love alot of the QF ideas. Loving your husbands (and he is to love you), loving yoru precious children and thinking of them as a blessing, spending quality time with your family, giving of yourself to your family, treating others with respect, working hard at what you do, making every opportunity for personal growth, Character training your children, freedom from depression, peace and joy etc. Now the qf movement ideas you speak of that I have seen doesn't say that all woman are to wear prairie or cape like dresses, use absolutely no form of birth control even family planning, wear headcoverings and submit to an abussive husband. THIS IS LEGALISM and not part of God's plan. Now there are some of the teachings that do but a small percent from what I have seen. They have twisted or become legalistic in their thinking. Which happens sometimes with all belief systems. Some ideas that started out good went wayword. Do I follow Nancy C, Doug Phillips teachings? No, I follow what is best for my family which has ALOT of their principles involved in my belief system but not all of them. You weren't following God you were following MAN/WOMAN, or even misconstrueing the ideas of their teachings. All the things I have listened to from Doug phillips has been nothing but encouraging. Same for Nancy Campbell. I have seen some things in the AR magazine that I disagree with but that is that particular family and not meant for everyone. Not everyone fits in a nice neat little box. All the patriarchs that I have seen are a blessing to their family, loving them, leading them and one who cares of the needs of his wife. What you describe is NOT biblical at all or loving to be a wife like that. God doesn't want us to allow our brothers/sisters to live in sin. We are to lovingly bring it to their attention. I do not have children because I think I will become more holy and spiritual or because it brings God's favor over me. His work on the cross already did that. I have them because they are SOOOO enjoyable and fun to raise. I don't have them because it is a "duty" called by God. They are an extreme joy in my life and make my life fulfilling. I know that some believe you should have children even if your life is at risk or even if you are mentally incapable of taking care of them. But I do believe it is a small portion of the movement. The movement I see is just to be open to more blessings (children) if that is your desire. My husband VERY much respects my ideas and opinions. I do not fear him in any way shape or form. I LOVE it when he listens to Vision Forum because I get the benefit of a loving husband for it. I have seen the "movement" you are talking about amongst some quiverfull families and I find it to be a bit sad. To me its unloving to allow our husbands to brow beat us or control us and I see no where in the bible that this is ok. But like I said I think its a small percent that are like that, so please don't put everyone in a box. I am on the AR group and I see what you are saying in some of those woman. LIke I said you were following THEM not God. Another thing I want to add is that my children TOTALLY have a free will and choice what to believe. I have a son who is having a difficult time believing. I dont' tell him to "just read the word some more" or you better believe or you are going to hell. I tell him to research it for himself. My daughter wants 5-6 kids and thats it. I don't tell her she is living in sin for not allowing God control completely over that area of her life. She is allowed to her own opinion. And the decision is hers and her husbands. I have tought her submission but she also knows that I would never submit to abuse and control in a husband neither would she. That is not God's will for us to allow our sinful husband to continue in their sin and enabling it. The word is clear about rebuke. My daughter doesn't choose to wear dresses or head coverings or all those legalistic things she chooses to live according to God to the best of her ability and be her own person in the mean time. one of my teen boys wants 12, the other 4-5, the younger ones want tons is the term they use. If they only wanted 1-2 I would encourage them look at all sides of the spectrum and then make a choice based on that as well as their desires and goals in life. I am pefectly fine whatever it is they choose. Another thing I have noticed is that you had a rigorous schedule for Angel to follow I saw parts of it. No wonder she was miserable. That is not quiver full teaching that is your own teaching. My daughter hardly ever babysits the kids. WHY? because it is NOT her duty. They are MY children not hers. Does she help me at times? YES willingly but I never excpect it of her, its her free will. If you have a child willing to help out all the time out of a servants heart there is certainly nothing wrong with that either but to force them into a schedule that is mom like is unfair. WHen I decided to have alot of children I wanted to make darn sure I wasn't putting a burden on my older kids. That is not acceptable in my opinion. So basically what I am trying to say is the box you are putting QF minded people in is unfair and a poor picture of what many QF people are like. Yes there are a fair amount of people that do things like you did but that is not the majority I find in a QF lifestyle. There are MANY MANY QF people that are happy, healthy functioning families. We are one of them. Are we perfect NOPE!!!! not by any means. But I strive to do what the word says about relationships and it doesn't say anywhere in the word for the wife to be a door mat or pee on and to allow abusive behavior to continue. That is a mis representation of what QF really should be. I will continue to listen to the teachings of Nancy C, Vision forum because it has blessed my family in tremendous ways and has made my husband such a strong and loving husband and I will spit out the areas that I may disagree with which are really not many ) I want to continue to be blessed by those teachings and see such wonderful growth in my life and the lives of my children. I cannot live up to the legalistic lifestyle you spoke of and nor would I ever. That is true bondage. Thankfully I see their teachings a different way then you do. Much love and success to you, Michelle happy QF mommy to 7 beautiful children and thinking about the possibility of another )
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Post by margybargy on Nov 25, 2009 16:58:52 GMT -5
Another thing I want to add is that my children TOTALLY have a free will and choice what to believe. I have a son who is having a difficult time believing. I dont' tell him to "just read the word some more" or you better believe or you are going to hell. I tell him to research it for himself. My daughter wants 5-6 kids and thats it. I don't tell her she is living in sin for not allowing God control completely over that area of her life. She is allowed to her own opinion. And the decision is hers and her husbands. I have tought her submission but she also knows that I would never submit to abuse and control in a husband neither would she. That is not God's will for us to allow our sinful husband to continue in their sin and enabling it. The word is clear about rebuke. My daughter doesn't choose to wear dresses or head coverings or all those legalistic things she chooses to live according to God to the best of her ability and be her own person in the mean time. I think it's great that you are encouraging your son to do his own research and to decide for himself what his religious beliefs, if any, will be. What materials is he reading if you don't mind me asking? My brother read everything from the Koran to the Humanist Manifesto before deciding to stick with Catholicism. I also admire you for encouraging your daughter's interests and individuality. What activities does she participate in outside the home? My little one loves dance, and I'm also going to sign her up for soccer. And, last question, how do you educate your daughter about abusive relationships? If she did wind up in such a situation, what would you do? My daughter is so young I haven't given the matter much thought. I'd appreciate any advice you might be able to offer. Thanks in advance for answering my questions. Have a happy Thanksgiving.
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Post by luvmyblessings on Nov 27, 2009 11:37:40 GMT -5
Answers to these questions below: I don't know how to put it in a cute little box like ya all do. I don't see that option on here. But then again I am not computer smart either lol. So here is what you wrote and what I wrote is below in italic. I think it's great that you are encouraging your son to do his own research and to decide for himself what his religious beliefs, if any, will be. What materials is he reading if you don't mind me asking? My brother read everything from the Koran to the Humanist Manifesto before deciding to stick with Catholicism. I also admire you for encouraging your daughter's interests and individuality. What activities does she participate in outside the home? My little one loves dance, and I'm also going to sign her up for soccer. And, last question, how do you educate your daughter about abusive relationships? If she did wind up in such a situation, what would you do? My daughter is so young I haven't given the matter much thought. I'd appreciate any advice you might be able to offer. Thanks in advance for answering my questions. Have a happy Thanksgiving. To answer some of your questions: For my son he mostly is going about it scientifically for his research. He has read alot online and has looked at the mormon bible and the johovah witness's bible but for the most part it has been "scientific" research. He has looked into darwin theory, creation science and some in between. Our kids CANNOT believe the way we believe for us, it has to be because THEY believe it or they are going to end in a situation similar to Vykkies. (sp?) I think he is leaning toward creation science now where before he was in the darwin mindset but with research is changing his perspective. We have just loved him through it. After all it is his life not mine.
My daughter does horse back riding lessons in the past, art lessons, drama, youth group type activity with her friends, she has gone on camping trips with her friends, water-sliding, knitting classes, dances every week currently "swing dancing" with her fiance and been a part of a Friday school coop. She also was in public school for a short time which we didn't like. She currently has a job. She has also has done 4-h and she is thinking of going to college as well. Most of my "quiverfull" friends allow these types of activities for their children. A handful and I do mean handful don't.
As far as abusive relationship I have taught her to be loving but DO NOT put up with ABUSE!!!! Why?! Because before I met my husband I was in a very abusive relationship with what was suppose to be my future spouse. It ripped me down. I have NOOOO patience for it. I know that sounds really harsh and I don't mean it to seem like I am bitter because I really am not anymore but I will NOT allow myself to be abused or "controlled" by no man or woman for that matter. So if she was being abused by her spouse (which her fiance is very laid back) so I don't see this as a potential problem. I would council her to lovingly bring his sin to his attention. And if he continues to live in it I would tell her I don't think its good to divorce yet, but I would council her to separate and allow God to work in him if he is willing. I believe in boundaries and will not be ruled over by anyone as I have seen too many husbands continue in their sin until their wife finally stands up and says "ENOUGH" and then you see the change. Not always but many times. I have seen this among non christian circles as well so you cannot call it "quiverfull" thinking. You have to call it for what it is (A HUGE PROBLEM in our society as a whole) not just among christians. People need to stop blaming Christians and take a close look at the whole world. They too are struggling and making mistakes and making their life miserable. Because well... we are human.
Anyway my daughter definitely has a will. She is sweet and selfless for the most part but she is VERY much to her opinion and due to having brothers won't put up with much.
Submitting to your husband does not mean to allow his sin to continue. We ARE allowed a voice. After all God created to be his help meet correct? if you believe the bible. That means to share your ideas and opinions, That means that we have a wonderful tremendous role of loving him and respecting him and influencing him just as he is in the loving role of "loving his wife as Christ loves the church". He has a huge responsibility in leading his family. I am sooo happy I have a leader and don't have to make decisions I am unsure of. It gives me so much peace. What Vickie did was misconstrue this whole idea. She did NOT understand biblical submission. Again she was following a "system" not the bible. Thinking it would make her righteous or her kids perfect or bring some sort of happiness. However this even happens with non christians. My aunt is a perfect case in point. She is not a believer yet she continues to live in abuse because well... thats all she knows and to her that is what is comfortable. Albeit she is not comfortable but you know what I mean.
The problem does NOT lie with the Quiverfull movement as she calls it. The problem lies with LEGALISM and a weak mentality to be you own person. Its not serving God to allow others ei husbands to continue in their sin. I have TONS of scripture I can back that up with.
I personally think that the woman who submits no matter what have a severe self esteem problem and are doing it because they are afraid and two because they don't want to take the "hard" way out of separating from the situation. I don't know their hearts however but God absolutely does NOT call us into abuse.
Like I said I am sad to see this board because it is putting a name where it shouldn't be. I don't follow a "movement" per sey. I do believe in many/MOST of the teachings of the "movement" as she describes it, but I will NOT allow myself to conform to what another MAN/WOMAN sees as hollier then thow. Vykkie and others like her completely miss the point of what this lifestyle is. I am not trying to be harsh but I am gong to stand up for this "movement" she calls it because it has brought incredible joy for my life and freedom. Even the Jeubs said that they are following the Lords leading for the JEUB family. Doesn't mean everyone has to live their way or they are sinful and unrighteous. They don't claim that at all in their message. I do believe the Jeubs are genuinly happy. Their daughter straying? Ummm ok this happens ALL the time wether you are Christian, non christian whatever. So you are blaiming the Jeubs for their daughter straying. What about my next door neighbor who claims to have a perfect relationship with their daughter who moved out, is a druggie and living a "sinful" life. They aren't Christians but claim to know the answers in life. Why put the Jeubs on a pedestal? they don't claim to be perfect. Just because they are living this way doesn't mean their daughter isn't suppose to make mistakes. Jeubs don't want to be put on a pedestal. Why so tough on the Christians when the non believers are having daughters straying and getting pregnant. Just because you raise a child a certain way no matter what it is doesn't mean they are not going to stray from your ideas. Does this make Jeubs bad parents? NO!!! Then I guess you can say we are ALL bad parents correct? our kids ALL make mistakes. Their lifestyle doesn't claim to raise perfect kids. And I hear that Felecia is back with her family anyway. Thank goodness for reconciliation. What a blessing!!!
My parents were NOT at all quiverfull. I had ONE sister. Guess what I got pg before marriage. So please don't blaim the quiverfull lifestyle for their daughter straying. Just not a good argument.
I hope Vykie truly is happy with her new life she is living.
and lastly I VERY MUCH enjoy serving and loving my husband. It brings me happiness to truly love another person and do things for him and respect his opinions and ideas.
I do see some that are in the QF become someone living in legalism. But like I said most have a balanced view. yes even those people she claims to put a woman in a door mat positions. A misinterpretation of what they are really trying to say.
I want to be a joyful mother of many, lets face it children are a blessing!!! Whether you have a ton or just one. I want to love and nurture my children and my spouse and seek God first. Doesn't mean I won't experience life problems or that my kids won't make mistakes. THIS IS WHAT THE TRUE QUIVERFULL IDEAS ARE!!!!! That is what they teach!!! Submission takes study to really understand what it means and what is Godly. You can't take one scripture and sum it up. You have to take it as a whole.
Excuse my grammar I am typing super fast to get breakfast going
Sincerely,
Michelle a "quiverfull" mama with real opinions and ideas some separate and some similar from my precious hubby. And not claiming to know all the answers to life. And definately not claiming to be righteous. there is nooooo way a "movement" or "lifestyle" can make you righteous before God just because you follow certain theologies. I have MANY MANY did I say MANY weak areas?!!! Oh and thinking of having ONE more and calling it good
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Post by jemand on Nov 27, 2009 11:53:50 GMT -5
oh, no, we were never saying the Jeubs were bad parents because their daughter got pregnant as a teen. We were saying they were bad parents for throwing her out of the house because of it. Happy to clear that little bit up
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Post by pandapaws on Nov 27, 2009 12:14:54 GMT -5
luvmyblessings,
Maybe you shouldn't claim that you know how Vyckie felt or how she interpreted the Bible. Your post comes across very condescending towards her and it really isn't appreciated. Why does every "believer" always claim that they have the correct interpretation of the Bible, submission, etc and unless you agree with them you are wrong? How do you know YOU aren't wrong? Vyckie was living by the Bible and she did a lot of research and prayer to lead her to her conclusions about living a Christian lifestyle. Just because you don't agree with her doesn't make her wrong or as you put it "a weak mentality to be your own person." Really if you need any book to run your life, Bible or otherwise, the argument could be made that you have a weak mentality to be your own person.
Speaking of having a weak mentality you spoke this pearl...
I am sooo happy I have a leader and don't have to make decisions I am unsure of.
Making decisions you are unsure of is part of being an adult and growing up.
Maybe you need to take a closer look at yourself rather than criticizing someone who left the lifestyle you are living, even with it's slight differences. Even if your life wasn't going so well, if you are truly QF and a believer you would never admit it to us heathens.
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jeb
Junior Member
Posts: 97
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Post by jeb on Nov 27, 2009 14:01:58 GMT -5
pandapaws said: luvmyblessings, Maybe you shouldn't claim that you know how Vyckie felt or how she interpreted the Bible. Your post comes across very condescending towards her and it really isn't appreciated. Why does every "believer" always claim that they have the correct interpretation of the Bible, submission, etc and unless you agree with them you are wrong? How do you know YOU aren't wrong? Vyckie was living by the Bible and she did a lot of research and prayer to lead her to her conclusions about living a Christian lifestyle. Just because you don't agree with her doesn't make her wrong or as you put it "a weak mentality to be your own person." Really if you need any book to run your life, Bible or otherwise, the argument could be made that you have a weak mentality to be your own person. Speaking of having a weak mentality you spoke this pearl... I am sooo happy I have a leader and don't have to make decisions I am unsure of. Making decisions you are unsure of is part of being an adult and growing up. Maybe you need to take a closer look at yourself rather than criticizing someone who left the lifestyle you are living, even with it's slight differences. Even if your life wasn't going so well, if you are truly QF and a believer you would never admit it to us heathens. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tell it like it is, Pandapaws. Ain't it amazing how we just KNOW what other people have lived through and thought and studied and it just doesn't measure up to what WE KNOW is the TRUTH?!?!? Some times it's almost embarrassing to be a human. I've told Vyckie more than once that when I reincarnate (LOL) I'm coming back as a fart in a gentle breeze so that when I pass by folks can say, "Oh, there goes John. Hi John". ;D As my former M-in-L used to say to my boys when they were small . . . "Y'all be sweet now". John
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Post by Sierra on Nov 27, 2009 14:08:46 GMT -5
Submitting to your husband does not mean to allow his sin to continue. We ARE allowed a voice. After all God created to be his help meet correct? if you believe the bible. That means to share your ideas and opinions, That means that we have a wonderful tremendous role of loving him and respecting him and influencing him just as he is in the loving role of "loving his wife as Christ loves the church". He has a huge responsibility in leading his family. I am sooo happy I have a leader and don't have to make decisions I am unsure of. It gives me so much peace. What Vickie did was misconstrue this whole idea. She did NOT understand biblical submission. Again she was following a "system" not the bible. Thinking it would make her righteous or her kids perfect or bring some sort of happiness. ... The problem does NOT lie with the Quiverfull movement as she calls it. The problem lies with LEGALISM and a weak mentality to be you own person. Its not serving God to allow others ei husbands to continue in their sin. I have TONS of scripture I can back that up with. I personally think that the woman who submits no matter what have a severe self esteem problem and are doing it because they are afraid and two because they don't want to take the "hard" way out of separating from the situation. I don't know their hearts however but God absolutely does NOT call us into abuse. This is the kind of maddening doublespeak that has caused me to cut every fundamentalist and most evangelicals out of my life. Look, you are either submitting or you're not. Either you admit that the man is in charge of the decision making (no matter how much discussion precedes the decision), or you admit that you're not submitting. Being 'in submission' without actually submitting is just a way of carrying a Good Christian Card(TM) while not actually applying Christian principles - and it's that card that allows you to beat everyone else over the head who actually does try to apply those principles and realises how malignant and evil they are. I assure you, we were each and every one of us as firmly dedicated to the Jesus we knew as you are - and it didn't work for us. In fact, it nearly destroyed most of us. You can keep lying to yourself about it if it makes you feel better, but don't try to lie to us too. We've heard this shtick before. The 'no true Scotsman' argument is not welcome here. We've heard enough of this twisted submission-without-actually-submitting and I assure you, every one of us that professed it (Vyckie included) did so with the wholehearted assurance that we were following the spirit, not the letter, of the 'word.' If you read Vyckie's story, you can identify numerous examples of ways that she used her own mind and will to get through tricky situations wherein Warren was an obstruction rather than a 'leader.' She was far from the mindless self-effacing drone you want to paint to support your little straw castle of happy quiverfulling. I spent fourteen years attempting to follow the spirit of God as preached by the Branham cult (which likes to think that saying 'we're not a cult' makes it so - chew on that when you say you aren't part of a 'movement') and all I got was PTSD and anorexia. Oh, and the belief that the entire universe was aligned against me - because I was born into servitude as a woman, and because the world was about to end. You know what? I'm not interested in learning about how non-abusive 'true Biblical submission' is, because I think the whole concept of submission is horseshit. A penis does not a leader make. Nor does the lack of one invalidate my qualities of leadership. It's quite scary sometimes, living without a guidebook - yet it was the guidebook that made me feel that life was not worth living. If I was created to be some male leader's 'help meet,' then God failed at creating me, because I've never once felt the slightest twinge of desire to do so. and lastly I VERY MUCH enjoy serving and loving my husband. It brings me happiness to truly love another person and do things for him and respect his opinions and ideas. Yeah, I love, respect, and occasionally even 'serve' my boyfriend (as he does me) and enjoy it, too - and I abhor the concept of either one of us 'submitting' to the other as a matter of principle based on gender. It's infantilising to assume that one person in the relationship always has to be 'led.' We each have different strengths. We are still conducting our own lives the way we choose, even though we're doing it together. Sometimes I lead, sometimes he does - we give each other much-needed rest and support by balancing our decision-making. And neither one of us ever makes a decision explicitly against the will of the other.
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Post by luvmyblessings on Nov 27, 2009 16:49:49 GMT -5
One last comment. I see I am not liked here. And that is ok. I am sorry I offended people. My heart was not to offend my heart was to stick up for the quiverfull movement that I live and enjoy and show that we are all not like what she describes the movement to be. That is a fact. The fact is that there are some people that are like her previous lifestyle was and that is SAD and is such a shame. I am seeing that there is alot on here that are either divorced or with a boyfriend. See I do believe they perhaps they have this attitude about it simply because they had a JERK to live with. Now because of those jerks then all men that we willingly "submit" to are JERKS and dictators. Its sooo not true. It is easy to "submit" to someone who loves you and would never brow beat me into something I don't believe in. I realize there are but myself speaking for me and many of my friends their husbands are very loving and do not make a decision without consulting what their wife has to say. THAT IS DICTATORSHIP!!! Not in the bible if they force a decision or don't care what you have to say. The life you speak of that gives you freedom away from God and living for yourself brought me nothing but depression, anxiety, alcoholism, almost to suicide *I did try once*. I was on antidepressants and would literally sit in the rocking chair by the window staring out because I was sooo miserable. It wasn't until I changed this lifestyle that I became free and happy. While my life is FAR from perfect *and I know you say I will say this no matter what* but I am soooo truly happy now vs the way I used to live my life without God. No more depression, no more drugs/alchohol, no more anxiety. I don't say you all have to live that way. Course not, we each are different and that is perfectly fine too! The reason why I am so passionate about writing what I wrote is not to be self righteous GEESH I have enough issues to worry about then to pretend to be self righteous. And I don't claim to have the answers but I wanted to let others know that are new to this website or perhaps are unsure of things to know that there is many "quiverfull" people that are VERY different from what she describes. That is all. She paints all of us in a light that shouldn't be painted. The title should read "no more culting" One last question, does it make me wrong or brainwashed because I desire to have alot of children? I do NOT judge others who have only 1, none or 21. They have to make that decision for themselves we ALL deserve free choice in this life. After all why have kids if you don't really want them. That is a HUGE disservice to the child and VERY unfair. I have been called many names by people walking by simply because of the fact that I have 7 in tow. One lady said it was disgusting. DISGUSTING to have children? She had her daughter with her and proceeded to say "children are a waste of money and a waste of time" I think its disgusting that you have so many". WOW what boldness. I smiled and said "thank you for your opinion" "I happen to think they are extremely wonderful and can't think of anything else better I would rather spend my money on". She didn't know what to think of that. I pray you all enjoy your life now that you are free from your abusers. And if you are happy without Christ then I wish you well. I guess I will live in my "brainwashed" world and "be happy". I am comfortable here. Much more then I used to be. Good luck ya all and nice to see others ideas, I won't be back to bug ya again, Michelle
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 27, 2009 17:07:25 GMT -5
Dear luvmyblessings, I'm having a difficult time coming up with words to respond to your letter ~ which, I have to give you credit ~ really covered all the bases so far as the usual happy QFer condemnations which I've grown used to hearing ~ at least you did stop short of declaring me "dead" as my old friend, Cindy of SALT magazine did in her editorial. I do believe your letter is so instructive that I think it's worthy of careful consideration ~ unfortunately, it's too overwhelming to really do it justice and since I don't believe that you actually care to know what I think, I'll just touch on a few highlights. Dear Vykkie,luvmyblessings ~ it's Vyckie ~ a little tricky, I admit. Still, if you don't care enough to bother to spell my name correctly, how am I supposed to believe that you have any regard for me as a fellow human being at all? I am sorry for what you have had to endure. What I have had to endure? Do you even know what I've had to endure? Have you read my story? Have you read this: nolongerquivering.com/2009/07/24/vyckies-story-part-20-though-he-slay-me-again/? Have you read any of my story? I haven't even written the really devastating part yet. I get the feeling that you are not at all sorry ~ you have no idea ~ and you do not care to know ~ because for you, my rejection of QF doesn't have anything to do with my Qf experience ~ for you, it's really all about you and how happy you are ~ which, truthfully, luvmyblessings, your satisfaction with QF is irrelevant to me in light of my and my children's suffering. The fact that my daughter felt it would be better to be dead is no less a reason for me to reject QF simply because you are happy with your QF life.What a shame that the QF ideas were twisted in your case. I realize that you have to believe that I was only practicing a "twisted" version of QF, luvmyblessings. Again, unless you actually read my story and find out for yourself what QF ideas I believed and how I lived them out, you really can only assume that the QF ideas were twisted. If the family unit falls apart because of practicing the quiverfull movement as you call it, then the man was obviously not doing his part in the qf teachings that I have read of husbands love your wives as christ loved the church."Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church" is the peanut butter in the QF trap. It's what makes the entire ideology so appealing ... so very attractive. And this is not just a QF teaching ~ this is straight evangelical Christianity ~ pure bible. Which is what makes it all the more insidious. I do love alot of the QF ideas. Loving your husbands (and he is to love you), loving yoru precious children and thinking of them as a blessing, spending quality time with your family, giving of yourself to your family, treating others with respect, working hard at what you do, making every opportunity for personal growth, Character training your children, freedom from depression, peace and joy etc. Yes ~ those are all the same ideals which attracted me to QF too. Some ideas that started out good went wayword. luvmyblessings ~ the ideas started out on false premises ~ it is following them to their logical conclusions which leads a family "wayward." For specifics regarding those false premises, please read the "What It's All About" series on the NLQ blog (if you dare) ~ please pay particular attention to "A Most Twisted Love." Do I follow Nancy C, Doug Phillips teachings? No, I follow what is best for my family which has ALOT of their principles involved in my belief system but not all of them. It is discouraging that you sound SO MUCH like I did as a QFer. You weren't following God you were following MAN/WOMAN, or even misconstrueing the ideas of their teachings. Wow. How is it, luvmyblessings, that you feel qualified to judge my heart ~ my deeply personal walk with God for Whom I was willing to risk, and even to lose, my life? Please explain. I have them because they are SOOOO enjoyable and fun to raise. I don't have them because it is a "duty" called by God. They are an extreme joy in my life and make my life fulfilling. I do hope you have better reasons for having children than that thay are SOOOO enjoyable and fun to raise. Here's why I had them: nolongerquivering.com/2009/06/20/vyckies-story-part-19b-a-godly-family-trusts-the-lord-with-their-family-planning/. If you bother to read that, please come back again and tell me where I went wrong in my thinking ~ how is it that I got the QF conviction all twisted? In what way did my QF beliefs differ from yours? To me its unloving to allow our husbands to brow beat us or control us and I see no where in the bible that this is ok.Sierra did an admirable job in responding to this ~ so I'll pass on it here. LIke I said you were following THEM not God.luvmyblessings ~ have you seen my "tour de crap" on the blog? I get the idea that you do not realize that *I was one of THEM* ~ I was a leader in the movement ~ Nancy Campbell printed my articles in her magazine ~ I wrote for An Encouraging Word and Home School Digest. I am pefectly fine whatever it is they choose.Once, when I was on the "pro-traditional marriage" side of a panel debating the merits or lack thereof of the Marriage Protection Amendment here in Nebraska, a woman from the audience asked me, "How would you respond if your daughter came out to you as a lesbian?" I skirted the question, but over the years, I pondered it ~ and gradually realized that I would love my daughter no matter what. So ~ as a committed Christian, I probably could have dealt with it if Angel had turned out to be queer ~ but attempting suicide? That I couldn't handle. I don't know, luvmyblessings ~ your statement just seems so naive to my seasoned-by-reality ears. As a mother whose children have lived long enough to make some rather unanticipated choices, I just can't help but be skeptical of your profession of tolerance. I want to say, "Come back and talk to me in 10 years ~ I'll be interested to know how supportive of your children's choices you'll have been." Another thing I have noticed is that you had a rigorous schedule for Angel to follow I saw parts of it. No wonder she was miserable. That is not quiver full teaching that is your own teaching. The Managers of Their Homes schedule? Yeah ~ that was Hell for her. My daughter hardly ever babysits the kids. WHY? because it is NOT her duty. They are MY children not hers. Does she help me at times? YES willingly but I never excpect it of her, its her free will. If you have a child willing to help out all the time out of a servants heart there is certainly nothing wrong with that either but to force them into a schedule that is mom like is unfair. WHen I decided to have alot of children I wanted to make darn sure I wasn't putting a burden on my older kids. That is not acceptable in my opinion. Yeah ~ me too. You totally sound exactly like me (only considerably less articulate ~ LOL). One of these times, I'll post my tour de crap: "Productivity to Please a Multitude" that appeared in Above Rubies magazine ~ in which I said the same things ~ and meant every word of it too. There are MANY MANY QF people that are happy, healthy functioning families. We are one of them. I repeat: The fact that my daughter felt that it would be better to be dead is no less a reason for me to reject Qf simply because you are happy with your QF life. Your satisfaction with QF does not negate the real pain and abuse which many women, children, and men too, have experienced as a direct result of QF influences ~ the SAME teachings which are influencing you in the decisions you are making for your family. Much love and success to you,Much love? Pardon me, but I did not detect even a slight hint of love in your letter. All I've felt is judgment, self-righteous condemnation, defensiveness, dismissal of my suffering, suspicion of my intelligence ... I'm not sure if this is how you meant to come across to me ~ but I've been thinking that if your point was to try to "witness" to me or win me over to your way of thinking, your methods are surely working against your message. Michelle happy QF mommy to 7 beautiful children and thinking about the possibility of another ) Michelle, I too, am a happy mommy to 7 beautiful children. I think the real difference is that the harsh reality of my daughter's suffering forced me to finally see the Quiverfull vision and family ideal for what it actually was for my children, my husband and myself ~ not for what I hoped it would be, what I imagined it could be, what I knew God could make of it ~ but for what it actually was ~ and what it was, was unrealistic, unsustainable ~ fertile ground for the abuse and crushing of our spirits. If your experience with QF has not been similarly oppressive ~ good for you. I am sorry to admit that I have a hard time buying the rosy picture which you paint of your idyllic family. Having painted similar pictures myself ~ nolongerquivering.com/2009/04/08/its-about-a-vision/ ~ I can't help but suspect that your attempt here to convince me of how wonderfully it's working for you really has nothing to do with me ~ but rather, it's about you and your need to convince yourself that "Everything's Perfect."
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