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Post by musicmom on Feb 14, 2010 20:26:07 GMT -5
I would venture to say that many of us on this board have endured some kind of abuse - from severe to mild - in our childhoods. I believe it's fairly impossible to escape it completely. Obviously, this case is much more severe than most. But child abuse is an epidemic, systemic problem in our culture, I believe. MOST parents hurt their children in ways they don't even understand. Most of our parents spanked us when we were children and thought nothing of it. Yet, some of us WERE scarred and hurt by it. We were hurt by their words when they thought they were just helping us to be better people.
I think that you are taking these people - who admittedly are on the extreme end of the spectrum - and heaping all of society's collective child abuse sins upon them. We are ALL guilty of it in some degree. We do it to our kids until we are healed and educated because we don't know any better.
And for the record:
Of course these people should be held accountable for what they have done. And of course, their daughter should be protected, affirmed and allowed to experience the full range of feelings and healing without having to feel sympathy for her parents.
But it's not going to do any service to the daughter, I don't think, to demonize her flesh and blood. She feels herself to be PART of them - no matter how cruel they have been. Ask any mom who's walked the thin line of speaking the truth without maligning her ex-husband in front of her kids. The kids feel they are a part of the dad, no matter how "evil" he has been. It hurts them to condemn either parent. We could do much more harm implying that they are spawn of the devil.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 14, 2010 18:39:58 GMT -5
Sierra,
Excellent post!!!
It is so much easier to project our own anger and rage upon the perpetrators rather than stretch and try to have compassion with them (not saying that's what Doggie was doing, btw) and trying to learn how this all happened.
Despite not being a Christian anymore, I still do believe "there but for the grace of God go I....." when thinking about these types of situations. Meaning, under the same circumstances and facing their challenges, I might have done the exact same thing. We are all human beings - cut from essentially the same cloth and subject to the same temptations.
Like Sierra said, if we can't somehow wrap our brains around HOW people could choose to do things like this, we won't have a hope in preventing the same things from happening again. It's just too easy to call them evil and just be done with it.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 14, 2010 16:39:05 GMT -5
cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2010/02/10/pf-12824946.htmlOK, I found it. Apparently five children total, from the ages of 5 to 14. The girl and her brother are from a previous marriage, and Scott and Andrea have 3 more together. Man, it seems like blended family + fundieism = recipe for disaster. A lot of the times, the stepchildren get treated like crap. How much does anyone want to bet that the brother turns up abused too?
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Post by musicmom on Feb 14, 2010 16:37:44 GMT -5
when your beliefs harm or kill your children then you are an evil person. I hope if there is a hell there is a special place for fundies who damage and kill their children in the name of god. Doggie, I appreciate your anger and compassion for the children, but these parents are not evil. They are abused and manipulated themselves and they probably think they are doing the very best thing for that girl's soul. Very likely, they were abused as children without it ever being acknowledged, so this all feels ok to them. They probably are trying to save their daughter from being ruled by her own selfish will or the devil. Please don't think I am defending their abuse. I am, however, defending their intentions. Sick as this is, I believe that they think they are doing the right thing by their child.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 13, 2010 18:38:25 GMT -5
*shakes head* Are you me? Parallel lives, it must be. Freaky. Three of a kind. And that is why I am so happy - happy is not the right word really - relieved? ecstatic? - that I found this board. I thought I must be the only person in the world to have those thoughts and feelings and experiences. I mean, i know there are other QF families around, but I knew no one who had divorced and left this life and had a bunch of kids and a big transition to regular life to navigate. The fact that you other women know of what I speak, it just really, really helps. I have felt so lonely and have had no one to talk to that had any idea where I was coming from. This lifestyle is not such that you can explain to people easily - that I'm not just a stupid bimbo who didn't understand how babies were made and liked to be pregnant and barefoot for "my man". You ladies are so intelligent and compassionate and sincere in your desire to be good people and I am so honored to be one of you!!! Vyckie - THANK YOU for starting this site and for contributing to exchristian.com where I first saw your site linked.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 13, 2010 18:28:23 GMT -5
"The result of this respect and healthiness was that I actually did feel desire to be with him more often. " Yes! I credit this rule (having to have sex whether you wanted to or not) with effectively killing my sex drive while I was married. Of course, as Vykie as said, him treating me like a child did not help either. Oh, and expecting sex a few weeks after a baby was born did not really enamor me to the whole activity either Yet, I can see that Chris suffered under this rule as well. Since I was trying so hard to be "good" QF wife, I would almost always give into his demands, whether I wanted to or not. I could tell, after a while, that he hated that. He hated that I NEVER wanted to, on my own accord, because I knew that it would be soon enough that he'd want to, and then I'd HAVE to. The result being, that his wife never wanted to be with him, but only was because she "had to". Of course, he didn't hate the rule enough to tell me to refuse him when I didn't really want to .
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Post by musicmom on Feb 12, 2010 13:04:22 GMT -5
I can so relate to everything that has been said here. I, too felt like if he was unhappy, God was angry with me. Since the man was using drugs to self medicate and has some kind of mental disorder ( he would never go for treatment.. I suspect bipolar or worse, there were incidences of hallucinations on his part) there were a LOT of days I felt like God was angry with me. Runawaybride, Scary thought to realize that we put our own self-worth in the hands of a personality-disordered, very fallible, human being. No wonder i felt like I was losing my mind half the time. And, in true QF training, I would always question MYSELF. What had I done wrong that day to deserve this crazy browbeating that I (or the kids) were receiving. Even though I knew that sometimes he was just in a bad mood, I still believed that God was trying to tell me something because he was, after all, my divine head and the source of God's approval for me. I'm still kind of angry at God for putting me through that. There's a part of me that wonders how the divine good in the universe could allow me to be so led-astray in His/Her name, but yet - that is the age-old question: why so much suffering can exist. But spiritual abuse seems so particularly painful that I still ask the question.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 11, 2010 16:01:29 GMT -5
Abilgailmae,
It is great that you are reading this board and seeing where this philosophy can easily lead. I do NOT want to sound patronizing in any way to you because I truly do believe that everyone's journey is different and people need to follow where they are led.
However, do consider a few things and be wary of them:
My ex and I started off on a very equal footing too. He never talked down to me and if he even started to, I called him on it and he apologized. He truly did not want to treat me as less than him. The problem comes about very gradually, so gradually that you may not even notice the little indignities accruing every day. (Frog in the boiling water comes to mind). A man leading a large family in today's 2-child world will undergo significant stress too, but he will expect himself to be able to do it all and do it as God's appointed leader.
What you may want to come to grips with in your own mind is the in which Christianity really does support the man/husband ALWAYS, even when he is wrong. Pressures and troubles come - in any marriage. These times will be difficult for your husband, as well as you. He is human. It will be very easy in those circumstances, for him to play the "submission card" - even more so because he will think he is right in doing it, and the church will support him. It is BY FAR easier than working out disagreements in a marriage, which, in any marriage can be challenging. When push comes to shove, the fact that you have a Christian marriage will probably not bode well for YOU, because the decision has already been made in favor of your husband. Just know that - the church will not protect or help you, despite what you might hear.
The other thing is that, if children do come, your priorities will shift. I found myself often doing what was best to keep my children out of harm's way, even if I would bear the brunt of the injustice. It is much harder to stand up for yourself and defend yourself when your children are involved because he may turn around and punish them for your "willfullness". This puts you between the proverbial rock and hard place, and most moms will pick their kids' best interest (in the short term) every time.
I honestly feel that this lifestyle is not usually sustainable - at least while respecting the human rights of mothers and children. Someone has to pay the price for this large family - to make it all work and keep husband functioning and happy.
However wonderful your husband is, this system might very well bring out the worst in what otherwise might have been a great man. And, with your children innocently brought into the situation, you might have to pay the price. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Who will check his power when you are protecting your children? The church? nope.
Please forgive me if this is way more than you wanted to hear. You should be informed of what MIGHT lay ahead of you.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 11, 2010 15:04:57 GMT -5
Susan,
Yes, I definitely think you're on to something here with the male dominated/military way of seeing things and feeling like the feminine power was something to be subdued and controlled rather than nurtured and protected.
I remember when I finally switched got enough of male obstetricians trying to take over the birth process for me - rather violently, I though. I went into it thinking that they would help me and make it all safer, and I came to see that I was the one who would deliver this baby and they were just trying to take over and make it all harder for me. That's when I started using midwives/having home births.
But I have read feminist writings likening the overuse of C-sections and forcepts, etc. to a man trying to "own" the power of reproduction and harness its energy for himself. It is sort of like rape, I suppose.
Elaine Pagels has written some wonderful books on the history of early Christianity, and how the inclusion of certain books over others in the New Testament canon enabled the early church to eradicate the influence of all the Roman/Greek Goddesses and the whole idea of women having spiritual influence or control, from the idea of Christian orthodoxy. Pagan culture was pretty friendly to the feminine spirit, as was Buddhism and Hinduism. However, the Jewish religion had always been patriarchal. How to take this little tiny minority of people and channel that idea into what became Christendom is a very interesting story, but a huge loss for the feminine side of spirituality.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 11, 2010 13:50:15 GMT -5
"Ah, Susan, you're so right! Also, why do they always have to explain the need for hierarchy by using worldly examples? They say the husband is the big boss, but the wife is the second boss. She's still boss, just a little bit less. (they use military examples that I would probably mess up...) They don't call the wife a mere employee, but she must always operate under the authority of her husband. Frustrating."
Yes, the dreaded "middle management" position - serving those above us and below us and never able to please both!
I think the military metaphor is interesting and apt. Isn't it sad that the model suggested to us as Christian wives in a family (including helpless little children), is the same one required of men so that they can be counted on to go kill others and win wars? Is running a family such an unnatural, traumatic thing that we require the absolute obedience and submission without question required to wage state-sponsored violence?
I never once questioned this metaphor when I was fully QF. I really felt that there needed to be this unquestioning chain of command and that obedience was key in getting the job done and winning the war for Christ.
Now, I see that the traditional Christian family needs this kind of hierarchy and fear-based requirements because it is inherently unfair towards almost all its members. When you are abusing people's human rights (in this case, abusing children and women) I guess you better have the same tactics in place as army generals use to abuse their privates and the enemy.
Since my divorce, I have come to see that when everyone is being respected and their needs are being met - Eureka! No punishment is needed to accomplish what we need to do. Things just kind of flow - not that we never have problems, but I NEVER have to resort to anything close to the coercive measures that we had in place for years with Chris.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 11, 2010 9:58:33 GMT -5
Too true! I remember feeling on top of the world when my husband seemed content and pleased with me and the kids and the house. It was like, I was in Heaven already and I felt God smiling upon me. I pitied all the other people in the world who didn't absolutely KNOW in their hearts that they were doing God's will. I knew that I was, because my husband's approval of me was like God Himself giving me a hug and saying "Well done, good and faithful servant!". Not so pleasant were the days that he came home from work in a grouchy mood and took it out on the kids and me. It wasn't just that he was irritable. For me, it was that I maybe had lost my salvation that day, that GOD was not pleased, that I hadn't tried hard enough somehow - else, why was the smile of God not smiling today? Thus illustrating the complete insanity of basing your worth on the approval of another human (fallible) being. But do those books point out that little fact? It sounds ridiculous to me now, but I'm trying to be compassionate with myself and see that yes, I really was taught this stuff! How many times did I read the part about Sarah being such a good wife because she called her husband "Lord"? Idolatry? Yes, indeed. But that is what we were taught to do, and I did it well. I remember, in the midst of my QL life, feeling and hearing these other convictions and thoughts about what I should be doing which were contrary to my husband's will. For a while, I dismissed them as "the flesh" or "the devil" trying to get to me. I later realized that that was the very voice of my own conscience, trying to say "What the HELL is going on here??? You need to make this stop and you need to start protecting those children!" It continually astounds me what a great deal this all is for the husband. What's better than having another adult giving you everything and working for your approval as if you are God - because she has been taught that you truly are? OMG However, I do see that all of this doesn't really, in the long run, serve the husband either. But certainly it's a good enough deal for him that he's never going to change things, or call a halt to the abuses. Too sweet of a deal for these guys. Thanks for listening, all.
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