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Post by musicmom on Mar 22, 2010 13:29:30 GMT -5
Sierra - LOLOLOLOLOL!! Thanks for the midday laugh I've watched this show a few times and can't figure out whether I like it or hate it. Sometimes it is so offensive, but at the same time, so funny.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 21, 2010 13:20:55 GMT -5
I think perhaps part of the reason that many Christians have the perpetual smiley face is something that Vyckie has talked about before. Many of us, myself included, treated Christianity as some kind of insurance policy against all the uncertainties of life. We paid into it by our total obedience - giving up our very selves, our goals, our children's wills, etc - and we expected a perfectly controlled, charmed life in return.
Personally, life did not seem to know about this insurance policy I'd taken out and doled out the usual consequences and accidental disasters to me. But, until I saw the Ponzi scheme that I had bought into, I could never admit when things were bad. It would be like admitting that I had been royally scammed and that life REALLY WAS unpredictable and full of sadness and tragedy (as well as full of lots of good things too).
So, until I was ready to admit that I had been had, I put a holy, happy spin on everything that happened. I was like one of those annoying yellow happy faces that you see all through Walmart. And woe to anyone around me that admitted depression or discouragement. It is not a very human way to live life - as a perpetually, pathologically happy person. Now when I hear Christians talk like this, it makes me want to slug them - but I think it's because they remind me of ME.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 19, 2010 13:16:07 GMT -5
how can beating your children with plastic plumbers pipe be a good thing? how can beating happiness into your children be a good thing? As a grandmother who had to watch children become more robot-like as the years passed, I absolutely hate this teaching of the entire QF/P mess...absolute, instant obedience, indeed! Also myself a survivor of an alcoholic, abusive mother...far from QF...even now, at almost 68 years of age, the nightmares sometimes rear their ugly heads. Broken spirits, broken bodies, broken hearts, broken little people! How, in the name of GOD, can anybody support this kind of torture??? I think Vyckie explained it really well: we got scared shitless that we'd be damned to Hell as neglectful parents, or that our kids would roast in Hell if we didn't expect instant obedience. What's a few licks in comparison with eternal torment, after all? Gee, if Pearl is right, even a child dying here and there is just collateral damage compared to all the "joyful" kids he is getting into heaven!!! I hope you all can hear the sarcasm dripping from these words Oh, it just makes me feel ill.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 19, 2010 13:12:47 GMT -5
theearlyshow@cbsnews.com I just called and encouraged them to reschedule the interview. They gave me this email address in case anyone would like to share their opinions/comments on the Pearl issue. They sounded interested.....
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Post by musicmom on Mar 19, 2010 7:27:54 GMT -5
JWR,
I completely relate as to your growth on this board. I think the thought and energy bouncing around between the posters is truly divine and I too, have made some quantum jumps in my understanding of what I went through and why. Before finding this board, I just felt like such a stupid loser - single mom with 8 kids who just fell, hook line and sinker, for such an abusive asshole and got left with all the responsibility.
Communicating with all of you wonderful people - intelligent, thoughtful, consciencious, spiritual - made me feel so much better about myself and gave me the courage to explore how this happened to me. I really thank you all - Journey, Arietty, JWR, Astelli, Margy, Dangermom, Susan, Vyckie and even our lost Runawaybride - you have done more for me that I can tell.
I have to give the credit for "How did you get yourself into this mess" to someone else. Another woman at my graduate school classes and I were talking about my situation (because we were doing a presentation on Quiverfull) and although I wanted to slug her, she actually asked me that question. But with a very sincere, confused look on her face. After my irritation subsided, I realized I was asking myself the same question for months, but hadn't had the means to answer it. Now, thanks to all of you, I do.
Vyckie - this site is changing minds and hearts for the better.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 17, 2010 9:04:59 GMT -5
jwr, This is SUCH a good post. Wow. Well done. I was nodding my head through-out the entire thing. You nailed it. Absolutely. I remember sitting around in the basement of my best friend's house in high school in a Campaigners for Christ meeting. Two people were playing guitar and we all were singing "It only takes a spark to get the fire going.....". And I just fell in love with the feeling of it. Universal love, equality, sharing Christ's love with everyone, but having no rules. It was such a wonderful antidote to the nasty high-school politics of popularity and offered some real transcendence. Still not sure if that was just the "hook" to draw me in, or whether the movement was still pretty friendly and loving back then (early 80's). Either way - wow, I sure went through the Looking-glass since then!
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Post by musicmom on Mar 17, 2010 8:59:51 GMT -5
Maybe religion is just a societal version of borderline personality disorder? (only half kidding) I'm inclined to agree (only 1/4 kidding). To be more precise about it, religion has some very unhealthy aspects to it that people are reluctant to acknowledge and address because religion is a "sacred cow". I see religion a little like I see alchohol. It's fine if used in moderation, but disastrous if abused. Margy, LOL - I love how you refer to religion as something to be "used" . Have you ever heard of the book, "Toxic Faith - When God Becomes a Drug"? It's very good and was the start of my religious recovery almost 8 years ago (wow!). However, acknowledging and depending on a spiritual force is absolutely something which is a priority in my life, and I would hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater - which actually I have done at times in my life.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 16, 2010 21:57:41 GMT -5
Somewhat off topic, the slogan do hard things causes me to giggle. It has such obvious sexual connotations that I wonder why the Harris brothers are using it for their movement. Back on topic Due to what I think was borderline personality disorder, my mother was abusive. Like the writer of this article, I learned to control my own emotions. Because my mother's emotions could be harmful to us kids, I had to concentrate on keeping her calm. So, I rarely acknowledge my own feelings. For years, I didn't understand why some people had a need to cry. Unless I was angry, I simply did not cry. It is surprising how similar some of these stories are to my own upbringing and yet my mother wasn't a religious fanatic, she just had a mental disorder. I think that is what bothers me so much about these stories. The almost exact harm that was done to me during my childhood is being done against other children, not because their parents are crazy but because of religion. Maybe religion is just a societal version of borderline personality disorder? (only half kidding)
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Post by musicmom on Mar 16, 2010 9:34:51 GMT -5
People can be crazy and religious at the same time. I wonder how much of the bad stuff we're seeing is the combination of mental illness with doctrines of faith healing/avoiding psychiatric help. One of the reasons that I think religion is so dangerous is that you don't have to be grounded in reality at all. You can justify your choices with Bible quotes. Most people won't even bat an eye unless things get really bad. No need to worry about results or consequences (especially to other people). Bad things that happen as a result of your choices are attributed to Satan or God testing you. Multiply that by billions of people and....oh no. I think religion can be beneficial for those who are able to strike a balance between their faith-based beliefs and reality. The vast majority of people find a way to reconcile what's right and healthy with their religion. But there are plenty of others who simply can't do that for whatever reason: mental illness, abuse, lack of alternatives. Yes, I agree. I never thought I'd hear myself coming out against religious freedom, but that principle lets people get away with craziness and abuse. I remember when I was against vaccines for medical reasons, I got out of having my kids get them because of a "religious exemption". Not that my church was against them, but it was just the only way that I could get my kids in school without the shots. Now, not to turn this into a discussion on vaccines, but just to say - there is some kind of "carte blanche" in our country if you just wave the "religion" flag. Suddenly, no one can argue with you anymore. No fact, studies, evidence matters because it is your RELIGION and therefore, safe from any or all logic. And from there, we get things like parents not giving their kids medicine, medical care, education, etc. etc. I mean, I am all for as much freedom as possible. I just don't think religion should be used as a "magic excuse" to do whatever we want to innocent minors.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 16, 2010 9:29:04 GMT -5
((Kiery)) I'm so sorry. :-( There have been times when I shut down emotionally as well. I would reason my way out of feeling sad and try to ignore it and just do what I was asked. But wow...to not cry at your brother's funeral. I'm so sorry. I think I was completely shut down as a kid as well. I remember sitting there with a few friends watching the movie, "Fiddler on the Roof" and they were just sobbing at the sad parts (when Tevye wouldn't take back his daughter). And I just felt nothing. I remember feeling at that moment, that there must be something really wrong with me. I had no access to my emotions.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 16, 2010 9:23:58 GMT -5
"Parents, when you’re teaching your children obedience, make sure they understand that there are some orders that a child has a right to deny. Otherwise, you’re creating the perfect victim."
Yes - and the flip side of that is you're also creating the perfect abuser who feels no compunction or pangs of conscience because he was brought up to obey order unquestioningly. This is, of course, the very excuse that Nazi soldiers used to put people in gas chambers.
((((((((Ruth)))))))))
Oh my goodness. Those obedience games are the very definition of the "double binds" that they have found as one of the causes of serious mental illness. You must be a such a strong lady to have fought this and come out on the other side. You are truly a survivor!
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Post by musicmom on Mar 2, 2010 23:34:01 GMT -5
I think what I didn't realize was that I was going to lose most of my old community in the process. I didn't understand that most of the relationships were built on "like-mindedness" and the fact that we were together regularly due to church functions, and so once you took away like-mindedness and forced togetherness, well... I deeply love the new community that I am becoming a part of. But there is an undeniable aspect to the deep loneliness that occurs when you cast your boat off of the shore. It is very much a personal journey, in that respect. You have to be willing to lose it all. For women, our brains wired to think relationally and our hormonal and psychological make-up deeply rooted in relationships, this is not something we are willing to do unless we truly feel it's a life or death issue (physical life/death, or psychological life/death, etc). I know that it was only when I realized that *I* was going to go crazy if I stayed under that regime of insanity any longer, only then was I able to push off my boat and actually *do* it. And only the knowledge that there was no way I could survive staying kept me from turning my boat back around, more than once. I mourn the community that I thought I had. It still is hard for me to accept that part of the loss. I wish they could understand. The fact is, most of them cannot...the paradigm they live inside makes it virtually impossible. There is no fixing that...not unless life hands them pain to such a degree that they can see, and, honestly, I hope that never happens and that they can remain safe, inside of their world, because I love them and have no desire to see them hurting. I feel like what happened to me was so eye-opening, so soul-crushing-yet-expanding, a terrible bloody forcing of change (that turned out to be a wonderfully good and life-giving thing, surprisingly).... I have learned so much from all of this, so much...and yet I still would wish it on no one. Journey, I actually know exactly what you are saying here and have thought it myself. There are people I know who are still living this life and both they and I can see the problems they are facing. And I think sometimes they choke back doubts as to the goodness of this lifestyle. But I can tell that their problems are not severe enough for them to make this terrible, anguish-filled jump out of their marriage and their comfortable way of thinking. And even though it would be good to have some company, i am glad that they can stay and endure because I would not wish this journey on anyone - as transforming as it has been for me. If I could have avoided it, I probably would have. There was just no way that I could. I guess I'll avoid details since I'll be going into that in my article series. My mother asked me recently whether I felt good about my decision to leave and whether I still thought it was the right thing to do. And I answered her completely honestly that I did think it was the right thing to do - the only option really. But that, if I had known how hard it was going to be, I probably wouldn't have done it. I'm still glad that I did, but I'm glad that no one told me what it was going to be like because I probably would have just sunk into more denial, or gone completely crazy to stay where I was. It's been over two years now for me, and I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, signaling that I'm through the worst and we are beginning to get readjusted. But saying it was a bumpy ride seems like too much of an understatement.
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Post by musicmom on Mar 2, 2010 23:25:05 GMT -5
What does it mean to "blanket train" a child? Put a newly mobile baby on a blanket. When they crawl off, hit them. When they start staying there, tempt them with toys. When they go after they toy, hit them. Repeat until they give up trying to get off the blanket. What is really disturbing about this is what it does to the child psychologically. Obviously, the pain caused by the discipline is not good either. But even worse to me is what it says: "Do not explore. Do not be curious. Do not take any initiative. Do not think for yourself". The child will, it seems to me, grow up with a nameless dread and fear of discovering the world. Hmmm.....wondering if my parents blanket trained me......
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Post by musicmom on Mar 2, 2010 12:27:08 GMT -5
Ruth, how has this impacted your ability to make it through college? We at least used A Beka, so we got something, but I am hopelessly behind in math (I'm a girl!) and science (glorified Sunday school lessons), with those being my lowest grades in college. Frustrating because I like them. Gasp! I take exception to the bolded part, young lady. Margy, I did at first too, but when I re-read it, I think she is being sarcastic. That was the stance her family took, so they did not teach her, or let her excell in math because she was a girl. So sad - I had the same experience. I developed a math phobia pretty early on due to some bad teachers and an abusive older sister who was assigned to 'coach me" in math. Later in life, I met a mathematician who was also a musician as well as a really cool person. He explained to me that math (at least higher math, not necessarily arithmetic) was a beautiful philosophy which made perfect sense - just like a perfectly composed Mozart Sonata. Someone else even told me that music is just math formulas set in time. Don't even pretend to understand that idea, but I like it I think if I hadn't thought I was stupid (my family's conditioning) I would have really loved math. Well, hey, I guess it's never too late, right?
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Post by musicmom on Feb 27, 2010 19:21:01 GMT -5
Ruth,
I am so sorry that you went through all that - what joy your parents missed out on by repressing you as a baby and a child. Let alone what joy YOU missed out on by not getting to be one. So very sorry.
Your comment about there being no difference in your mind between hanging a towel wrong and hitting someone (can't remember if that was the comparision exactly) really made me think. I remember when my ex and I followed the Pearl's ideas and that was definitely one of the concepts: that everything the kids did wrong came down to one thing: disobedience. So, if one of the children left their sippy cup in the back yard even when I told him not to - well, he is disobedient. There is no allowance for forgetfulness or being busy, or anything. Everything is treated as defiant sin.
The result of this became something that I am still struggling with with my eldest kids - the ones who got the most of this kind of - dare I say...discipline? (It doesn't deserve that name - it is just brainwashing abuse).
My oldest who are teens now, still sometimes claim that anything they do wrong is only wrong because I, as the parent, say so. They have trouble going beyond parental authority to a universal law - for instance "do unto others..." because when they were little, everything was taken as disobedient to parents. Made it seem to them, as if the only thing that really mattered was not making mom and dad (especially dad) upset. And that things are only wrong because we think they are wrong - not because somethings ARE WRONG.
Thanks again for sharing your story. (((((Ruth))))
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Post by musicmom on Feb 24, 2010 14:02:26 GMT -5
Frankly, Im astounded by the people who seem to be justifying away the responsibility these monsters, yes I said it as that is how I see people who murder their children in the name of God, carry in this situation. I guess Im not enlightened enough to show love towards people who beat a seven year old child to death because she mispronounced a word. No, Ive not been the parent who beat a child in the name of God but Ive been the child who was beaten in the name of God and in that moment, the parent is more monster than human...than a parent. Taking it back to the Nazi analogy, the Nazi's who killed and tortured were held responsible for their actions...just as Hitler would have been had he not killed himself. Who was the greater evil? The mind behind the evil or those who carried it out? As I said before, I dont differentiate between the two, especially when it comes to the murder of a small child. And yes, I do think those parents are criminals. I can only hope the law continues to agree with me. I am not justifying them or advocating that they are not dealt with - where did you ever think I was? The only way adults are going to start taking this stuff seriously is for our society to start taking it seriously - I totally agree with you. I, also, have been the child beaten by parents. Why do you think that I remotely thought it was ok to do to my own child? Of course - it felt familiar and right to me. Unless someone can face and deal with her own abuse - as see it as abuse, not love - she will do it to her own child because that is "love" to her. A friend who was raised in a similar way I was once described to me a beating he got from his dad as "the cheapest lesson I ever learned". This is someone who has not come to terms with the fact he too was abused. He, as I did, allowed his spouse to browbeat his kids into obedient submission. Since he sees what his dad did as love, he is "loving" his kids in the same way. In the same way, I felt I was helping my child avoid being "bad" and eventually being thrown into hell for faults. Sure, I know better now - I know all about shame and projection, and developmental stages of childhood. I didn't know all that then. So, instead of just name-calling, maybe we could instead advocate awareness of the problem, protecting kids anyway necessary, but most of all - education of adults who are going to be parents. Marginalizing these people will not solve any problems - it is really too easy of a solution for such a systemic, pervasive problem.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 24, 2010 10:22:33 GMT -5
Could I make a request? Could we please limit the use of names like "monster" and "criminal" when describing human beings?
As much as this story turned my stomach, I need to remind everyone here that many of us ex-QF moms either participated, or allowed quite a bit of corporal punishment to be inflicted on our kids. For me, standing up to my husband on this issue ended the marriage and left me a single mom of 8. Yes, it was the right decision - I have no doubt. Was it easy? No - I knew that I'd be dealing, by myself, with a houseful of angry, abused kids and my ex would not be around to hold down the fort anymore. They are now pretty much normal, mouthy but lovable kids - all doing well and happy.
But it was NOT easy getting to this point and believe me, I feel guilty enough about what happened in the past without being called a monster for using the Pearl's "pearls of wisdom". People can and do change and choose better - please remember this. People can have good intentions and make huge mistakes. Dont' de-humanize them - you have not walked in their shoes.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 19, 2010 20:56:58 GMT -5
As tragic and harmful as the physical punishment and pain that the kids endure is, I think there is one element even more insidious.
The fact that those kids are being raised in the schizophrenic mindset of thinking that their parent, by disciplining them in this way, are LOVING them is far worse. I mean, it's one thing to know that you are being abused and that's bad enough. But to be abused, and think that you're being shown love - that's what really screws with your mind and lasts a lifetime.
At least now the other kids might have an inkling that being treated that way is, in no way imaginable, related to love.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 19, 2010 12:04:07 GMT -5
OH painful to read, the lure "Perhaps it was the wholesome, healthy happy people and beautifully dressed children – the kind of life I wanted my daughter to have." Indeed. Me too, me too I fell for the idea that if you can just figure out what to do, follow all the rules and have God on your side, I could finally have that happy, functional family that I wanted so much as a child. The sick part was that near the end, I knew younger moms were looking at my family with my 8 kids - as obedient as robots - and had that same look in their eyes as I did at the start. And I knew I was just perpetuating the fairy tale. It was all so fake and I started getting sick to my stomach! Just wanted to say "No!! It's not how it looks - these kids are not happy and I'm about to have a nervous breakdown."
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Post by musicmom on Feb 17, 2010 12:14:33 GMT -5
I think a lot of these ideas to open up families to the community are already more commonplace in Europe. Many families don't even have care and we've already talked about the free child-care in many countries there.
In many ways, having families individually responsible for all of their own laundry, cooking and childcare is just a waste of time, money and resources.
IMHO, it is the combination of the isolation and the overwhelming housework/childcare that drives many women over the edge into destructive behavior. For me, the destructive behavior was getting deeper and deeper into the QF lifestyle since I needed the philosophy just to keep me going.
Getting together with other families for common tasks seems great to me. It's all so very unnatural the way we have it set up, I think.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 16, 2010 13:31:55 GMT -5
KM, Well, at least I am in good company with the founder of this site hearing Marxist ideas coming out of my mouth - right Vyckie? And I do think that political systems are VERY relevant to the whole QF discussion. It can be very neatly argued that having wives behave in the QF way practically enables capitalism to be possible - in that we have a completely unpaid yet smiling and totally committed workforce - taking care of the kids and house so the man can go off to work in industry. Without women playing their part in this scenario (QF or mainstream), capitalism cannot survive. That is why conservatives are always pushing "family values". Once I figured this out, it got rid of a shit-load of guilt. I suddenly thought "OH!!! It's not about God! It's about MONEY!" They just use God and the guilt that goes with it, so that the capitalistic machine can keep churning. You are right, of course about our country. Maybe I need to move to Sweden .
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Post by musicmom on Feb 16, 2010 13:04:10 GMT -5
As far as the conversation about community childcare, I do think it was relevant to the discussion.
We were talking about whether it is possible to monitor families who might be abusing their kids - whether homeschoolers or not. We talked about the fact that much abuse that goes on wouldn't be picked up by school people anyway (certainly, not the way I was abused as a kid).
My point was that the traditional nuclear family is a pretty safe way to abuse kids and there is really no way to prevent it or find out about it - unless it is the real obvious kind of abuse, like what happened to this girl.
If we really want kids to be able to grow up safe from all abuse (emotional and psychological too) we might someday have to say bye bye to the sanctity and absolute privacy of the nuclear family.
I thought - KM - that this was what your main concern was with this thread, so that's why I brought it up. Admittedly, it will not happen anytime soon if ever (and I have major reservations about it also), but I do think it was a valid point.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 16, 2010 12:47:05 GMT -5
" On pages 23-24 Dobson recounts being flogged on a regular basis with a girdle "with a multitude of straps and buckles" by his own mother; at the end, he states "Believe it or not, it made me feel loved." I am quite sure there is a woman in a back corset with a whip somewhere in his entourage who is well paid for her service and silence. Okay, sorry, again, but that was one of the most troubling examples of Dobson's endorsement of child abuse IMO. Does it need to be made into a joke? KM, I know I'm kind of new to this forum compared to you, but it feels to me that you are trying so hard to control this thread - where it goes and what we are discussing. Aren't you always free to steer the conversation back to what you're interested in without chastizing those of us who enjoy following the rabbit trails of our imagination? And I didn't see that comment as insensitive to physical punishment. I think she is absolutely right that people who were raised with physical punishment crave it in their sex lives. Not saying that's good or bad, but just reality. Can we lighten up a bit and just let people be who they are?
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Post by musicmom on Feb 15, 2010 18:23:53 GMT -5
Yes, Susan - I hear you on that for sure.
I think what would be the coolest is for that kind of child care to be available and free, not compulsory for everyone. I honestly think some of us are cut out to be mothers and do it really well, and some of us aren't. Personally, at times in my life, I think I've been excellent, and at other times, I feel more focused elsewhere and then I either have to give up where I feel led to explore, or in some way neglect being the best parent I could be.
In a sense, it would give women the same chance as men to develop themselves and still get to be a parent - albeit with a lot of support staff!
There's also a lot of people out there who haven't studied child development and have no interest in it. They are bringing up their kids the best they can, but probably with the same mistakes their own parents made. If these people had another option, they'd probably take it, and how much better off for the kids too???
Well, I am just dreaming here. Sometimes I just try to imagine what our society would have to look like in order to be truly fair and just to women and children - and no matter how you slice it, it's a lot different than now.
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Post by musicmom on Feb 15, 2010 11:56:48 GMT -5
KM, I honestly don't see any good options, either. I think these cases are increasing people's awareness that seemingly-normal families can be abusive. In a way it's bad (to me) -- because it means that in some people's minds, a "red flag" will pop up anytime they learn that their new neighbors are homeschoolers. But, of course, it also means that some people will be more likely to call the child abuse hotline if they suspect anything amiss in any home. But, of course, that kind of depends on neighbors being interested enough to notice stuff. I actually see this as similar to the "war on terror"-mentality, in that I disagree with us all having to give up our privacy "just in case" one of us might be part of a terrorist group. But ... child abuse is a lot more prevalent than terrorism. Still, I think giving up our privacy would mean severely lowering our quality of life. I'm not sure where to draw the line. When I was in social work school in college, one of my fellow students strongly felt that, to protect children, there really needed to be video surveilance of every home -- and I mean INSIDE every home. She felt that you can't really know what's going on unless you can SEE in the homes, because abusive parents can persuade everyone that they're nice people. But I just can't imagine living like that. Sigh. Remember when Vyckie feared how Marxist she was sounding? When faced with the impossibility of preventing child abuse in private homes, I find myself wondering if perhaps Marx (and Plato before him) were right after all - that all child-rearing should be public and professional. Like I said in an earlier post, I think most parents abuse their kids in some way or another - emotionally or psychologically or otherwise - only because they were raised that way and didn't realize how harmful it is. I know that I endured a humiliating amount of emotional abuse growing up and no one at school knew and no one could help - because there were no scars, and even if they had known what was going on, in those days, it wouldn't have sounded like a big deal. My mom was doing the best she could with what she knew - which, admittedly, was not much at all. It was only as I was recovering from the QF lifestyle that I even became aware of fear-based parenting and how harmful it is for kids. Do you all wonder what that would be like? Marx used to describe community kitchens (no more dishes!!), laundries (oh, so sad!) and professional round-the-clock childcare. (people actually trained in child development!!!). Well, I know this country is not even close to abandoning its dearly held private-home model, if ever, but I have to admit, Marx and Plato make a lot more sense to me now than they did 20 years ago. My only major difference with them might be that I would never, in a million years, make their ideas compulsory. Society would have to evolve naturally in that direction somehow - which would probably take the next 1000 years or so.
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