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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 3, 2009 22:17:21 GMT -5
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Post by rosa on Sept 3, 2009 22:37:23 GMT -5
Tapati, you were so brave! Running away from home twice before you turned 18 is amazing.
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Post by tapati on Sept 4, 2009 0:02:06 GMT -5
Tapati, you were so brave! Running away from home twice before you turned 18 is amazing. You're very kind, but I think desperate is the more appropriate term. I basically waited until a situation became intolerable and fled, hoping that my destination would be better.
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Post by tapati on Sept 4, 2009 0:06:51 GMT -5
When I got to the editing phase, I had a splitting migraine. Now that I've taken some medicine for it, I notice some errors.
Corrections--
In the sentence:
For the most part they lived like we did, and their husband’s occasionally visited their rooms, usually to chat and eat together.
That should be husbands, not husband's, LOL.
I think I changed the sentence from one where the possessive made sense but didn't change it to plural.
Also, in the sentence:
Now that I was a Chicago the powers that be realized I needed to be put under someone’s guidance.
that should read, Chicago devotee.
-----
That wool sweater? It ended up child sized. It's pretty funny in retrospect.
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Post by tapati on Sept 4, 2009 8:13:37 GMT -5
Also, I use quiet twice in once sentence and "one day" three times.
Oy!
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Post by hope505 on Sept 4, 2009 12:54:58 GMT -5
"haribol" Tapati... * ; )
I appreciate you writing about temple life...The devotees at the Denver temple were kind enough to let me work in their gift shop, even though I was carnivorous and living with a man! *haha!* Some of those people were very kind to me and I'll admit sometimes I miss going to the kirtan on Sunday nights...it was very social.
But...of course I learned a little bit about the 'inequality' between men and women...for example, men calling eachother 'prabhu' but never addressing women that way, and women never addressing eachother that way...thinking a woman's menses was "dirty"...women not supposed to talk to men...and other more subtle inequities. In retrospect, I'm glad I never wanted to become a bhaktin!
I believe "nothing's for nothing", though, and I'm confident that your experience in ISCKON did serve to further on your spiritual path, in ways.
Thank you for writing your story! I can't wait for the next chapter! * : )
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Post by tapati on Sept 4, 2009 13:25:35 GMT -5
"haribol" Tapati... * ; ) I appreciate you writing about temple life...The devotees at the Denver temple were kind enough to let me work in their gift shop, even though I was carnivorous and living with a man! *haha!* Some of those people were very kind to me and I'll admit sometimes I miss going to the kirtan on Sunday nights...it was very social. But...of course I learned a little bit about the 'inequality' between men and women...for example, men calling eachother 'prabhu' but never addressing women that way, and women never addressing eachother that way...thinking a woman's menses was "dirty"...women not supposed to talk to men...and other more subtle inequities. In retrospect, I'm glad I never wanted to become a bhaktin! I believe "nothing's for nothing", though, and I'm confident that your experience in ISCKON did serve to further on your spiritual path, in ways. Thank you for writing your story! I can't wait for the next chapter! * : ) You're welcome (and welcome to NLQ!). Like others at my forum, I can be dismayed sometimes that I spent so much time in ISKCON, even though it was less than some people gave. Some are still there, years later. But I do see my spiritual journey as one path, meandering through different spiritual camps but still focused on a relationship with the Divine, however I understood that Entity.
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Post by krwordgazer on Sept 8, 2009 19:00:27 GMT -5
Even though the religion is different, so much of what you are talking about, Tapati, sounds like my experiences in Maranatha Campus Ministries. The regimented schedule, the isolation from the rest of the world, the emphasis on spending lots of time in religious exercises. . .
Almost like a monastery or convent. I wonder whether monasteries or convents, historically, have had a tendency to be cult-like? Not being RC, I really don't know. . .
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Post by rosa on Sept 8, 2009 20:30:43 GMT -5
When something is as big as a Catholic religious order (or a Buddhist one, they also have monasteries) it's hard to call it a cult. Some orders did start centered around charismatic religious leaders, and some had periods when individual locations were ruled by a stunningly religious leader. In modern times, at least, there are protections that I would say make the established religious orders not be cults, even if the experience is similar. * the rules are written down and initiates can (must?) know all of them before they join * there is a trial period before new members commit for life * the order is ruled by a larger body (such as the Catholic church) which has the authority to change the rules or punish leaders who abuse them
For instance, right now the Vatican is cracking down on a lot of American nuns because the orders have gotten too free, too involved with "the world" - locally, lay sisters in one of our parishes have been under discipline from the archdiocese, and the Little Sisters of Joseph of Carondelet were being investigated.
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Post by tapati on Sept 9, 2009 0:42:44 GMT -5
The Hare Krishna movement had all of those things.
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Post by tapati on Sept 9, 2009 0:46:33 GMT -5
Even though the religion is different, so much of what you are talking about, Tapati, sounds like my experiences in Maranatha Campus Ministries. The regimented schedule, the isolation from the rest of the world, the emphasis on spending lots of time in religious exercises. . . Almost like a monastery or convent. I wonder whether monasteries or convents, historically, have had a tendency to be cult-like? Not being RC, I really don't know. . . The elements of total absorption in spiritual life and avoiding unnecessary contact with the outside world are pretty much the same in all monasteries and convents around the world. Whether this leads to a cult-like atmosphere depends a lot on the social dynamics and emotional maturity of those inside the sheltered environment, and whether or not members are told explicitly not to apply their intelligence to their belief-system. Any group that strongly discourages critical thought contains the main component of a cult.
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Post by grandmalou on Sept 9, 2009 6:51:48 GMT -5
Tapati, you said: "The elements of total absorption in spiritual life and avoiding unnecessary contact with the outside world are pretty much the same in all monasteries and convents around the world. Whether this leads to a cult-like atmosphere depends a lot on the social dynamics and emotional maturity of those inside the sheltered environment, and whether or not members are told explicitly not to apply their intelligence to their belief-system. Any group that strongly discourages critical thought contains the main component of a cult." Thank you, and especially for that last sentence! And "they" (the any group) say kids who go to public schools are dumbed down!
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Post by rosa on Sept 9, 2009 9:15:47 GMT -5
Tapati, what's the larger governing body for Hare Krishna groups? Is it a group in India?
I know a lot of ex-nuns and ex-priests and none of them ever had to "run away from home" the way you did - there are clear channels for people to leave, and they even remain eligible for pensions and other benefits in a lot of cases. But I don't know if that was always there or if it's a result of the number of nuns and priests who left during the '60s and '70s.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Sept 9, 2009 13:32:49 GMT -5
Tapati ~ when I saw the photo of "the new brahmacari in the temple" (whom I am assuming is the man you eventually married), I immediately thought of this picture: Guess who? Scott (his real name is Bryan Scott ~ I don't know why I changed it for the story ~ I'll probably change it back to his first name at some point) holding Angel ~ this was her second Christmas ~ just about a month before I left him for good. Recently, John scanned a bunch of old (pre-digital) photos for me, including this one. (THANKS, JOHN!) I want to go through the old posts and add the pictures because I think it adds so much to the story to see the faces of the people we're writing about. Tapati ~ one thing that I especially love about your posts is all the colorful, exotic pictures ~ the Dallas temple dieties are stunningly gorgeous! ETA ~ I just noticed this is my 400th post on the NLQ forum. ;D
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Post by tapati on Sept 9, 2009 15:54:19 GMT -5
Tapati, what's the larger governing body for Hare Krishna groups? Is it a group in India? I know a lot of ex-nuns and ex-priests and none of them ever had to "run away from home" the way you did - there are clear channels for people to leave, and they even remain eligible for pensions and other benefits in a lot of cases. But I don't know if that was always there or if it's a result of the number of nuns and priests who left during the '60s and '70s. The Governing Body Commission is the group in charge of ISKCON. They are elected nowadays, back then they were appointed by Prabhupada. They aren't from India by and large (although in the future any of them could be. ) They're mostly Western disciples. I didn't have to sneak out...I chose to rather than have anyone talk to me again and try to change my mind. They don't have pensions or benefits.
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Post by tapati on Sept 9, 2009 16:00:45 GMT -5
Tapati ~ when I saw the photo of "the new brahmacari in the temple" (whom I am assuming is the man you eventually married), I immediately thought of this picture: Guess who? Scott (his real name is Bryan Scott ~ I don't know why I changed it for the story ~ I'll probably change it back to his first name at some point) holding Angel ~ this was her second Christmas ~ just about a month before I left him for good. Recently, John scanned a bunch of old (pre-digital) photos for me, including this one. (THANKS, JOHN!) I want to go through the old posts and add the pictures because I think it adds so much to the story to see the faces of the people we're writing about. Tapati ~ one thing that I especially love about your posts is all the colorful, exotic pictures ~ the Dallas temple dieties are stunningly gorgeous! Haha, amazing resemblance. Definitely the same "type." For the photos I've been stealing shamelessly from ISKCON itself. If they notice and complain we can always take them down. There are many stunning Deities throughout the movement. We really did see Them all as God Him (or Her) Self. I don't have many photos during the time I'm currently writing about. The photo I did post of him was cropped from a photo taken with his first wife a year or so before I met him. You have guessed correctly that the mysterious brahmacari was to become my first husband.
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Post by rosa on Sept 9, 2009 16:53:35 GMT -5
The Governing Body Commission is part of ISKCON, right? I meant *outside* the order - religious orders that are part of the Catholic church are "self-governing" but they also are under the control of the church, so the leadership of the order itself have outsiders in charge of them. I think that's an important safety check for members, even though right now it looks pretty retrograde with the conflict between the Church and some of the more independent orders of nuns. I'm seeing the same thing in the ELCA here - they had their big conference here in town this summer, and now friends of mine who are ELCA are all in meetings at the congregation level to process what the national decided. Actually, the older I get the more I appreciate the role of those bureaucracies in all our institutions - those channels of action and checks and balances are all there for a reason, even if they are slow and can seem like distractions from the main purpose of the group.
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Post by tapati on Sept 9, 2009 17:44:41 GMT -5
The Governing Body Commission is part of ISKCON, right? I meant *outside* the order - religious orders that are part of the Catholic church are "self-governing" but they also are under the control of the church, so the leadership of the order itself have outsiders in charge of them. I think that's an important safety check for members, even though right now it looks pretty retrograde with the conflict between the Church and some of the more independent orders of nuns. I'm seeing the same thing in the ELCA here - they had their big conference here in town this summer, and now friends of mine who are ELCA are all in meetings at the congregation level to process what the national decided. Actually, the older I get the more I appreciate the role of those bureaucracies in all our institutions - those channels of action and checks and balances are all there for a reason, even if they are slow and can seem like distractions from the main purpose of the group. We're getting bogged down in terminology, I think. ISKCON is a branch of the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect of what is known as Hinduism. (Hindu is a label the British tacked on.) The overall organization, ISKCON, is like a Church in and of itself. Each temple could be likened to an individual monastery affiliated with ISKCON. ISKCON was modeled to some degree after the organization, Gaudiya Math, founded by Prabhupada's own guru. After his guru's death, the senior Godbrothers of the Gaudiya Math engaged in a power struggle. That's why he didn't choose to make ISKCON operate under the Gaudiya Math but formed it as a separate thing altogether. The GBC is the place one would complain to if a temple president is abusing his power. There is now an office that investigates and resolves complaints of abuse for them.
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Post by tapati on Sept 9, 2009 17:45:41 GMT -5
Tapati, you said: "The elements of total absorption in spiritual life and avoiding unnecessary contact with the outside world are pretty much the same in all monasteries and convents around the world. Whether this leads to a cult-like atmosphere depends a lot on the social dynamics and emotional maturity of those inside the sheltered environment, and whether or not members are told explicitly not to apply their intelligence to their belief-system. Any group that strongly discourages critical thought contains the main component of a cult." Thank you, and especially for that last sentence! And "they" (the any group) say kids who go to public schools are dumbed down! Yes I am amazed at how little real schooling seems to go into religious homeschooling. And of course only one viewpoint of everything is offered.
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Post by pandapaws on Sept 9, 2009 18:31:21 GMT -5
The GBC is the place one would complain to if a temple president is abusing his power. There is now an office that investigates and resolves complaints of abuse for them. HAH! Like the "good ol' boys club" would do anything if a temple president was abusing his power. It would have to be such a SEVERE abuse of power for them to do anything, and even then they may not. They will never come to the aid of the low guy on the totem poll. And if you are to complain you will have to suffer the consequences of doing so. Yah, I am bitter and I have been there done that. I was accused of being a liar, which of course I wasn't lying. It didn't go as high as the GBC, just the local representative. You will never win, ever. Edit: I don't believe the GBC is elected...who elects them? The other GBC member???
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Post by tapati on Sept 9, 2009 18:59:27 GMT -5
The GBC is the place one would complain to if a temple president is abusing his power. There is now an office that investigates and resolves complaints of abuse for them. HAH! Like the "good ol' boys club" would do anything if a temple president was abusing his power. It would have to be such a SEVERE abuse of power for them to do anything, and even then they may not. They will never come to the aid of the low guy on the totem poll. And if you are to complain you will have to suffer the consequences of doing so. Yah, I am bitter and I have been there done that. I was accused of being a liar, which of course I wasn't lying. It didn't go as high as the GBC, just the local representative. You will never win, ever. Edit: I don't believe the GBC is elected...who elects them? The other GBC member??? I'm not saying they're always effective or efficient, but they're there. As for elections: www.iskcontoday.org/AnswerstoJanardanaPrabhuPart2+and www.iskcontoday.org/GBC+Elections+in+Bangalore+announcement
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Post by tapati on Sept 9, 2009 19:08:30 GMT -5
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Post by pandapaws on Sept 10, 2009 8:32:23 GMT -5
So the temple presidents elect the GBC? That's a sham in my opinion. What about the regular congregation of devotees? Again, it's the good ol' boys club protecting the good ol' boys. This is hardly progress in my eyes.
Iskcon Today is a Ritvik site. I can tell by the people posting. Iskcon Long Island and Iskcon Bangalore have gone ritvik. This is not official Iskcon propaganda. This isn't a good source of information on Iskcon.
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Post by pandapaws on Sept 10, 2009 8:50:10 GMT -5
I did a google search and I could not find any official information on how the GBC get their jobs, appointed or elected and if elected by whom. All I can find are Ritvik sites with information on the Direction of Management (DOM) which they want Iskcon to apply. The sites that come up are krishna.org, iskconirm, prabhupanadanugas, and similar ritvik sites. Even the DOM is flawed IMO. Nothing offical iskcon is coming up.
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Post by coleslaw on Sept 10, 2009 10:07:09 GMT -5
Pandapaws, remember Tapati was responding to Rosa's posts making a distinction between the group Tapati joined and Catholic convents and monasteries. Since no one elects the Catholic heirarchy, either, I think Tapati has made her point about the amount of supervision both groups get.
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