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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 8, 2009 10:43:44 GMT -5
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calulu
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by calulu on Nov 8, 2009 20:11:42 GMT -5
You break my heart every time I read or hear about the years of misery you endured, Vyckie. I'm glad you got out and I'm glad you've been so vocal about the abuses this movement engenders.
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em
Full Member
Posts: 176
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Post by em on Nov 8, 2009 21:41:00 GMT -5
I don't think we get WE. I hope somebody puts it online.
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Post by arietty on Nov 8, 2009 23:39:10 GMT -5
I think you sound fantastic in this video Vyckie. Your whole point about families not being once size fits all and needing to adapt is very well put and will resonate with people. Even outside of QF women still feel pressure to make their families look good, to fit in with expectations.
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Post by journey on Nov 9, 2009 0:32:00 GMT -5
I couldn't get the video to work!!!! Dratted computers...
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Post by krwordgazer on Nov 9, 2009 1:21:23 GMT -5
I plan to stay up late and watch the show Tuesday night. (It starts at 10 pm in my time zone.)
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Post by phoenix on Nov 9, 2009 1:37:02 GMT -5
I want to second what arietty said--the idea of being pressured to fit in with expectations. When I read the Joy Behar transcript what struck me that other than her rather apocolyptic QF beliefs, Rachel Scott came across as fairly mainstream. That is to say, she seemed to be at least middle class, worked part time, kids in public school, fashionable hair and jewelry, etc. My fear was that she could lure some sincere Christian woman down a miserable path.
I remember how as a sincere Christian woman who wanted to stay at home with her young children and had an interest in a more rural lifestyle I was easy prey--all it took was picking up the Hesses' Full Quiver to set things in motion. If I had been able to fast forward and see myself 15 or 16 years later living up to what I was told was being obedient to God and the expectations of the group--8 kids, uncut hair/headcovering, no makeup/jewelry, frumpy jumper/cape dress, living in a very rural area in less than desireable housing trying to go debt free, well I'm not sure I would have bit so easy.
How many of us started with just one step toward QF/P and ended up someplace where we weren't sure who we even were anymore? I still feel so guilty because when I did let my brain operate enough to be aware of the abuses, usually a QF/P husband towards his wife in the groups we were fellowshipping with, it wasn't enough to get me to say it is time to get out. From what I learned from the cult recovery support I have had this has something to do with the idea we have now invested so much in the movement/group/relationship--or in other words have so much equity, we are reluctant to give it up.
So Vyckie, it must be stressfull to do the interviews--but if just one woman can be saved. . . .
Maybe Vyckie is a televangelist of a different sort--trying to get women saved?!!! Sorry if somebody doesn't think that that is funny--it's 1:30 am here. . .
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Post by tapati on Nov 9, 2009 11:26:24 GMT -5
Very effective clip, Vyckie! I can imagine how difficult it is to talk about that stuff but I believe it will have an impact on women who are starting to see the high cost of the QF life and maybe even those who aren't very far in yet.
I wish I got this channel!
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 9, 2009 14:52:10 GMT -5
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Post by Amy on Nov 11, 2009 0:47:29 GMT -5
I watched the show tonight and I was really touched by your story. I am a homeschooling mom and I'm very happy in that. We would have been "quiverfull" had I not had PCOS. I really am so thankful for the three children that I have and that there werent' anymore lol. Its so easy to fall into that patriachary,Vision Forum,rural living having many children thing. My husband just wasn't buyin it. I read Created to be his Helpmeet and he said he didn't marry a doormat. I am so thankful now to have avoided the hard road it could have been. We did however fallinto a trap of a different sort in the United Pentecostal Church. Same "standards" no make up no jewerly don't cut your hair yada yada. There are many standards that I have kept since leaving there. But they are my own. I think the danger of a "movement" is leaving your own standards and convictions...your ownself behind somewhere along the way and become part of a bigger group. Then one day you look around and go Holy cow! How did this happen? Sorry I wrote a book here lol, I said all that to say that I am glad that you and your children appear to be in a happier place. You presented yourself so well on the show and I hope you can keep at least one woman from following in your footsteps. www.outoftheupc.blogspot.com
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Post by krwordgazer on Nov 11, 2009 1:28:20 GMT -5
I'm very frustrated-- it's 10 p.m. PDT, when this show is supposed to be on-- and WETV is showing a show that their schedule says was supposed to have been on at 7:00 pm. Which probably means that in order to see it, I'll have to stay up till midnight, and I just can't. It may be Veteran's Day tomorrow, but I still have to work. . .
Sigh. Maybe I'll catch it on a rerun sometime.
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Post by mrscook1973 on Nov 11, 2009 8:08:50 GMT -5
I watched this program last night, and I'm so thankful that Vicky was interviewed for this episode. I have never been part of the patriarchy movement, but I have learned about it through websites like Ladies Against Feminism, Vision Forum, etc.
I am currently a SAHM, but neither my husband nor myself are against women working outside the home if that is part of God's calling for their lives. I think that's why Vicky's story is so important, because her testimony is about what REALLY goes on in these patriarchal families.
I have learned that many people in the patriarchy movement are very locked into the idea that their is only one view to have as a Christian family. I would never be able to live the way they do. I am a Christian woman who likes long skirts AND pants. I don't consider other women who work outside the home my enemy, but as my sisters-in-Christ who have a different calling on their lives. I am also African-American who votes Democrat (has anyone noticed that there are very few African-Americans in the Christian patriarchy movement, except for a few puppets like Voddie Baucham?). I also belong to a denomination (Seventh-day Adventist) which was co-pioneered by a woman (Ellen G. White), who was called by God to be a prophet. I'm also an aspiring speaker. I would truly be miserable following the tenets of un-Biblical patriarchy (I call it that because it is a distortion of God's Word).
Forgive me for rambling! I'm just so excited to hear Vicky's point of view on this movement, and I pray that God will continue to bless her and her family as she walks in the liberty where Christ has set her free!
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Post by grandmalou on Nov 11, 2009 8:28:54 GMT -5
You are so welcome here, Mrs. Cook! It is great to have so many different points of view on being free. (((HUGS)))
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juju
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by juju on Nov 11, 2009 9:41:45 GMT -5
Oh my God. I watched the show last night and was really grateful to have seen all the Joy Behar stuff about Rachel Cook on this website because that woman is certifiably insane. I was also kind of amused by the emphasis on the Jeub family. Anyone who saw the original "Kids By the Dozen" episode about the Jeubs knows that Chris Jeub totally came off as an arrogant little tinpot dictator who really enjoyed doing things like yelling "JEUB KIDS" and timing how fast it took them to assemble. I noticed they also left out the part about how Chris Jeub threw Wendy's oldest daughter Alicia out of the house and cut her totally out of their lives when she was "Making bad choices that we did not want around the younger children", and that neither of the parents spoke to Alicia for almost three years. I can't stand Chris Jeub, I think he's one of the biggest representations of everything Vyckie says about how the patriarchal lifestyle takes men with little bitty power trips and makes them into men with GREAT BIG power trips. It was great to finally see Vyckie for real, and Angel comes off as being so intelligent and well-spoken!
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Post by tapati on Nov 11, 2009 9:46:45 GMT -5
For those of you who couldn't watch it (like me), you'll be happy to know that the iTunes store will be getting it. They have all of the other episodes in that same WETV series, Secret Lives of Women. Just go to the music store and keep checking, put secret lives of women into their search field and it'll bring up the whole list. Some of the other episodes look interesting too. When I see it has been added I'll come back and post here.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 11, 2009 9:55:59 GMT -5
Super busy this a.m. ~ but I wanted to stick in a quick comment to say that I think that overall the show was awesome. Angel did a fantastic job. And my nails look terrific ~ which is the really important thing, you know. LOL juju ~ you'll find this interesting: twitter.com/chrisjeub ~ Chris Jeub twittered his commentary throughout the show. More later ...
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juju
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by juju on Nov 11, 2009 10:25:01 GMT -5
Argh! I can't get Twitter at work, I'll have to look at the feed when I get home. Seriously, Chris Jeub bugs. A lot. Rachel Scott is a scary broad. Did anyone else get that barely-concealed sort of menace from her? Staring eyes, absolutely nothing soft about her, grinding out her dogma like she was challenging anyone to disagree? She kind of reminded me of Jigsaw from the Saw movies. Plus the obvious contradictions between what she said on the SLW and what she said on the Behar show were pretty jarring. ETA Tapati, that series (SLW) is really interesting, although it's more interesting if you know the backstory on some of the women they profile.
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jennie
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by jennie on Nov 11, 2009 11:56:42 GMT -5
Vyckie, Angel, and Grandma Lou - you all did a great job! I thought the show was fascinating.
That older girl in the Jeub family did NOT look like a happy camper. She spouted the party line and all, but she looked depressed or something.
I sure hope this movement burns itself out within a generation. It's truly scary to think of what this country would be like if it didn't.
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Post by mrscook1973 on Nov 11, 2009 11:56:49 GMT -5
This episode of "Secret Lives" only scratched the surface of the patriarchy movement. I would very much like to see a more in-depth episode that includes examination of the whole movement, including the unhealthy emphasis on women depending on men for even the air they breathe. The emphasis on daughters submitting to their fathers even as adults is especially disturbing to me.
I do believe that children should obey their parents when they are minors, and honor and respect them when they become adults. But un-Biblical patriarchy takes this to the extremes. The daughters in patriarchy are encouraged to be abnormally attached to their fathers, to the extent that they can't make any decisions without their approval as adults. They are told to live at home until they marry, because leaving home when they are grown is seen as rebellion against God-appointed authorities. What a terrible distortion of the God I serve and love! He has not called me to be a mindless robot, but a thinking woman with intelligence to hear God's voice for myself.
Have you guys heard of the Purity Balls the patriarchal movement supports? I'm all for saving one's virginity for marriage, but once again, there is this sick dependence on fathers to "protect" their daughters in an unhealthy, suffocating way. Guys, the best way to protect your daughters is to let them know how much they are loved; to encourage them in whatever career God guides them to; to warn them against unhealthy relationships with abusive men; to not abuse them or their mothers; NOT to tell them that working outside the home is a sin, NOT crippling them by not letting them go to college, etc., ad nauseum.
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Post by tapati on Nov 11, 2009 12:10:09 GMT -5
It's up on iTunes!
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Nov 11, 2009 13:20:37 GMT -5
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Post by Sierra on Nov 11, 2009 14:14:43 GMT -5
I knew literally nothing about the Jeubs before this thread, but my heart goes out to Alicia. This really illustrates that the "children is a blessing" line QF purports to base itself upon emphatically does not mean that "young people are a blessing." Children are objects in the QF/P doctrine, clay to be moulded - if they don't turn out according to the script, they are defective merchandise and must be excised to save the rest of the clay.
Tragic.
Part of me is sitting here in stunned silence at the sheer dehumanisation of this poor girl. The other part of me knows this too well, as I am learning faster and faster that I mean nothing to my mother now that I'm not in her church. Alicia was made a villain to her family in the same way that I am being made the villain of mine. In the same way that Angel felt she was the bad spring in the perfect watch. I don't think I was ever bitter until now - realising that QF/P, Branham, et. al. literally pervert, subvert, take hostage the natural love of family members. They make parents love an imaginary ideal more than their own offspring; an idol to which it's holy to sacrifice children, people, in the name of God.
Now, I think, I've seen the true face of evil.
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juju
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by juju on Nov 11, 2009 14:40:12 GMT -5
That Quivering Daughters post was beautifully written and illustrates very well what you said yourself, Vyckie, about how it would be impossible to find a true adherent to QF who would be willing to go on TV and talk about the realities of the life.
What's really funny is to hear people who have finally found out what the whole mess means..."The Duggars are such a beautiful family, the kids are so well-mannered and they aren't in debt and -- what? What do you mean the girls aren't allowed to go to college? What the hell is THAT all about?"
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jennie
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by jennie on Nov 11, 2009 15:17:47 GMT -5
Did I miss something about Alicia Jeub? I thought it was Rachel Scott's daughter that had the child out of wedlock.
My earlier reference to the older Jeub girl was the one whom they had the birthday party for and brought breakfast in bed. She didn't look happy to me at all.
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Post by rosa on Nov 11, 2009 15:29:30 GMT -5
Alicia Jeub was estranged from her family for a long time, apparently at their insistence? And then they welcomed her back...on TV?
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