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Post by themomma on Jun 24, 2009 11:13:43 GMT -5
Anne2, what an awesome rejoinder. I do think at base, there is a real disregard for women's lives and basic cruelty in the idea that natural birth is more "godly". I do wonder if it's restrictive policies on midwifery and doulas that allow these untrained "midwives" to thrive - if there's a legitimate, helpful, licensing procedure for midwives, it seems like it ought to weed out the really awful ones. Among other things, then you could prosecute untrained, unlicensed practitioners for fraud. There are some really good doula programs around here but I don't know if they are official. I totally think they need to make midwives legal and welcomed in EVERY state. The state I live in doesn't allow midwives outside of a clinic and people take crazy risks. In one family the mother was dieing in childbirth and they "heard God" to tell them to take her to the ER. In a subsequent pregnancy she was very very ill during delivery with a high temperature and almost lost the baby. Again they actually did go to the ER but both times it was nip and tuck. The midwife is the same one that Vyckie had. It needs to be above board and out in the open so that the industry can thrive in the open and good, honest people can enter the profession. And I agree with jemand, it is the attitude of those with opinions like buzzard that drives them to hide away. Maybe they are paranoid and cultish, but it is scary when you start to realize you don't necessarily have conrol over your own body/family/children. If you read any type of history, you know what can happen when governments believe they control the people... Just a few weeks ago Dave Ramsey a well known financial expert and highly respected by Christians said in a telecast "Christians use 'I'm leaving it to God' to not take personal responsibilty". That has been playing in my head over and over and over everytime I read/hear more about this stuff. Grow up and take some personal responsibility!!! If you are having sex it is not a miracle conception! Yes, I believe children are a blessing but if you really truly believe God is personally directing how many children you will have, stop having sex and let Him work a miracle. Ok, I'm done ranting now...
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Post by hopewell on Jun 24, 2009 12:55:14 GMT -5
I have read and re-read this sad, sad story. The horror of this "stunt birth" will not leave me. It's taken me days just to write about this. I live not too far from the family. Why do the extreme right seem to romanticize "the old days" and add to that the bizarre notion that doctors are evil? Here's what I mean--women should go back to "traditional" roles, forget birth control ever came about, ignore advances in birthing safety and infant and maternal health that women "back in the day" would have killed for [pardon the expression]. So would women all over the 3rd world. Somehow it's better to die or have child die than go to an "ungodly physician." Why do I think this has more to do with a very cheap husband than anything else? I read what is left of poor Carri's blog--does her husband think that deleting it makes it really go away?? The courts may make it all come back out by going thru the blogging host or quotes in venues like this. What an idiot this man is in so many ways. YES, they are entitled to believe what they want, but this child died do to willful parental negligence. Even though poor Carris seems a genuinely loving Mom doing what she believed was best, this "stunt"shows they deserve to be arrested and the kids placed [hopefully] with loving relatives who have not drunk the quiverfull kool-aid. Her blog was simply pathetic--thanking her husband, the coming child's FATHER, for rewarding her with new diapering supplies?? Gag! And, I'm sorry, "Potty cloths?" Surely these are too gross for words?? And her kids "love" picking out pretty patterned cloth for them?? EEEEWW. I know some women love them, and I have two squirreled away for DIRE emergencies, but WHY would we want to go back to washing Sanitary pads?? Who's Great-Grandmother would ever believe this great "development?" And the "traditional gender role" thing. Ask Abigail Adams about it--I'm sure she say they are NUTS. The Proverbs 31 Women worked and provided for her family--she didn't just kiss hubby's feet and make do with next-to-nothing! Why must a husband be praised more often than a potty-training toddler? Is he that "simple"?? Off his meds?? What gives with THAT?? I looked at the photos of the family again Monday night and wanted to cry. Just like the early Duggar family shows, here are the girls in homemade Burkha-ish jumpers. And, having to model them at 4-H?? Oiy! Just tape "FREAK" on their foreheads, poor things!! And now they are likely raising those siblings because of Dad's criminal stupidity. I am honestly praying for this poor lady as she attempts to recover, but I sincerely hope she had to have a hysterectomy and that hospital security keeps hubby away. That poor little baby never had a chance--now I'm sure he's their "guardian angel" praying for them up in heaven or something. Probably her Darling Protector/ hubby will need his "helpmeet" back too soon. [And, please, WHY is that word so beloved??? "Helpmeet? " When are we living? The 17th Century??] And WHY with all these kids is this man not out there working? Somewhere I read his Dad paid their bills?? Oh h--- No! Get off you lazy _____- and get a JOB. Indiana Department of Child Services--go investigate this family NOW! I fully support homeschooling, but these kids need all the intervention they can get. This makes me so mad! FYI--in double-checking today her Carri-Me-Away blog has been totally removed.
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Post by rosa on Jun 24, 2009 13:13:25 GMT -5
Hopewell, using cloth sanitary napkins has nothing to do with religious beliefs and nothing to do with unassisted home birth, either. As a nonChristian, unmarried mother I have to say I didn't find cloth diapering gross and I continue to use cloth napkins - unlike my great-grandmother I have a washing machine.
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Post by jemand on Jun 24, 2009 13:16:27 GMT -5
cloth napkins/diapers might be much more comfortable. Although cloth "toilet paper" really doesn't seem like it would be worth the hassle-- it not being something you wear for an extended time.
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Post by rosa on Jun 24, 2009 13:22:38 GMT -5
Yeah, personally I really hate the plastic feel of "disposable" pads (are they really disposable if they're going to sit in the landfill for a thousand years?). I generally use a menstrual cup but I had about 3 years of various issues (including pregnancy - i bled the whole first 10 weeks) when I learned to love the cloth pads. If you're already washign cloth diapers, the cloth potty cloths don't seem like much more work.
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Post by themomma on Jun 24, 2009 14:37:37 GMT -5
These are issues and the reasons people avoid mainstream doctors. Just because you don't think cloth diapers/pads/potty wipes are not something for your family, everything is thrown into a box and labeled "extreme conservative backwards ___________(insert appropriate words here)".
There are VALID reasons some people choose not to frequent "advanced scientific medical doctors". Label those who do not choose that route only pushes them further away.
It is a terrible thing that happened and deleting the blog surely is suspect, but please don't paint everybody with the same brush...
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Post by jadehawk on Jun 24, 2009 15:46:49 GMT -5
Yeah, personally I really hate the plastic feel of "disposable" pads (are they really disposable if they're going to sit in the landfill for a thousand years?). I generally use a menstrual cup but I had about 3 years of various issues (including pregnancy - i bled the whole first 10 weeks) when I learned to love the cloth pads. now, I don't have children so don't have an opinion on diapers (other than the fact that I was a cloth-diaper baby). BUT I whole-heartedly support the use of reusable sanitary products. Tampons and disposable pads are unhealthy, uncomfortable, and environmentally very damaging. And since they have a "money back guarantee", everybody should give the Diva Cup a chance: it's environmentally friendly, hypoallergenic, easy to clean, needs to be emptied only twice a day, comfortable, doesn't cause Toxic Shock Syndrome, and can be boiled (for the germophobes among us) ;D
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Post by arietty on Jun 24, 2009 18:12:49 GMT -5
The problem with the Carri situation is the midwife imho. The bad midwife gave her misinformation, bad advice and antiquated treatment at a time when Carri seemed like she was quavering on what she should do. Midwives are not legally allowed to practice medicine or attend births in Indiana without the oversight of a MD or a registered nurse. It doesn't seem like her midwife was overseen by anyone or even had must training. Of all the people who's poor choices led to this tragedy it is the midwife who should be held legally culpable. If not for the crap info she was spoonfeeding Carri, Carri might have actually gone to a real doctor or nurse and had a safer birth experience. The situation with Carri's midwife reminds me a great deal of the midwife experience of her own that Vyckie posted. I completely agree. Here's a fact: many people will never be educated consumers of their own medical care. They will place themselves in the hands of an expert, whether it's Dr. ThirtyPercent Cesarean rate or whether it's Sister Christcentered Birth. Once wedded to this medical expert via fear, ideology or a faith like trust they are going to find it very difficult to listen to dissenting voices because they have given their critical thinking over to this expert. This is why the medical experts need to be accountable!! Just imagine if this midwife had been accountable to someone overseeing her practice, an OB or some other midwives. You would dramatically increase the opportunities for someone to say, "hey, this is a red flag, lets get this mom in for some prenatal care". It's one thing to rail against the stupidity of the family here but lets face it, MANY people are quite stupid. We need to work from that point and make the experts people will be blindly relying on accountable and medically sound.
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Post by arietty on Jun 24, 2009 18:46:26 GMT -5
As to all the diapers and home made sanitary pads and toilet paper-- IME some people really enjoy frugality even when it's not necessary. I have known a few women who make their own pads, they just plain enjoy using products they have created themselves. From what I saw of Carri's blog she is a very creative and energetic woman and sewing brings her a lot of joy. When you have that creative frugality thing going you love being able to make for yourself that which you are expected to purchase. I have seen some powerful creativity at work in some women with this inclination. It does not make you a freak, it must makes you outside the mainstream.
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Post by kisekileia on Jun 24, 2009 20:46:06 GMT -5
The Diva Cup doesn't have that money back guarantee anymore, IIRC, but menstrual cups are a really useful invention if you find one that works well with your body. I am pretty anti-crunch in general, but I've been a menstrual cup/cloth panty liner user for a couple of years now, and I'm happy that way.
I think that midwives should have 4 years of university education and a required licensing system. Appropriately educated and licensed midwives should be allowed to attend home births, because unfortunately the home birth movement isn't going to go away if it's banned, but I don't think it should be legal for women to give birth without a responsible professional there. It endangers her life and the baby's, much like not wearing seatbelts and not putting your child in a car seat.
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jo
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Post by jo on Jun 25, 2009 10:24:58 GMT -5
First, I have to stipulate that I do not have all the facts on this Carri and her birth, since I only read about it here starting last night. I've read what can still be found online but it appears much is missing.
That said, I can comment on some of the issues this brings up.
1. I use cloth diapers and cloth pads. I do not use family cloth but I might if I didn't have kids with gross hygiene already (young kids have to learn and be taught these things and my kids are works in progress who would flush cloth or leave it on the floor). I've used cloth diapers for years for the environmental and monetary benefits. I jumped to a mestral cup several years ago because disposable pads give me terrible yeast infections. And, after my last birth I entered the forray of cloth pads because I couldn't use my cup post-partum. I've found cloth to be a tad bulky but oh so much better for my feminine health and will use them as a viable back-up to my cup when AF finally returns.
I'm a huge advocate of homebirths. We are the only industrialized nation that doesn't offer a viable and consistent alternative to the hospital. And, this most definitely plays into our abyssmal infant mortality rates, as does our ever increasing c-section rate.
But, I have a love-hate relationship with unassisted homebirth. On the on hand, I feel every woman has the right to dictate her own body and on the other I've met few UCers who actually had the knowledge base to be safe with UC (talk about your oxymoron there).
I can't figure out if this Carri was truly UCing or if she was seeing a laymidwife. I see comments condemning a midwife, so I assume that there is one involved.
Lay midwives can be just as qualified, experienced and knowledgable as their CNM counterparts. The problem is the word *can*. Starting at the turn of the 20th century, OBs were ust coming into their own as a profession in this nation. They needed a base of patients and felt they could not advance their livelihood nor skills so long as they remained the choice of last resort, since everyone knew if you entered the hospital you could just assume you would die of childbirth fever. The midwifery profession was targetted to be eradicated by a smear campaign, by legislation and by aggressive character assasination against midwives.
In that act, what was never considered medical was turned over to medicine and the profession of miwifery was almost stamped into extinction. Until the 70s when they began to experience a massive revival.
Because states have still not legally let Professional midwives back into the arena, in states where they are illegal, training and skills become a crapshoot. You can have a midwife who trained by attending a mere 5 deliveries working alongside one who holds a Bachelors degree from a state where midwives are legal and trained.
You are never going to stamp out the underground movement for midwives. Its far better to legalize the profession again and establish minimum standards of knowledge and experience. Well trained midwives risk out high risk pregnancies to OBs and hospitals. The tradegy here sounds like a mother and a midwife who didn't do that.
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Post by rosa on Jun 25, 2009 10:32:53 GMT -5
Thank you, Jo. I think there are a number of us on the forums who started with a midwife and were referred to an OB when we showed high-risk symptoms. Thankfully, Vyckie's experience (and Carri's) are a minority for women who go to midwives or home birth...i just wonder if they are a minority in the fundamentalist groups, with the pressure of cost and referral for religious standards instead of medical ones.
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Post by hopewell on Jun 25, 2009 11:20:56 GMT -5
Mea Culpa!! Didn't mean to incite a riot over the sanitary pads and potty cloths!! Forgive me! Let's not let this distract from the real tragedy this family has endured.
Sadly, I think the husband has really, really done something regrettable in taking down the blog [if he did, perhaps the police ARE now involved and it was pulled for that reason]
I DO think poor Carri means well and gives her all to her family. I just think their lifestyle is "extreme" in ways that can make them an easy target. From the photos the children look VERY well cared for.
Apologies to those I upset.
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jo
Junior Member
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Post by jo on Jun 25, 2009 12:05:40 GMT -5
Yeah, my last birth I was risked out of homebirth...for high blood pressure that led to pre-eclampsia and landed me in a medically necessary induction that ended up in c-section.
The pregnancy before that, I was followed by a lay midwife and her OB back-up. Everything was fine...until my midwife abandoned me in labor. It was then I realized that in a state where a lay midwife is not legal, I had no legal reprucussions for what would have cost any licensed professional their licensure.
I can't say that all of my qf friends eschew sound medical advice. I have seen a definite leaning towards homebirth and unassisted if you can't find/afford midwifery care. But, I've also seen many like Vyckie who seek out medical care when they feel something is wrong.
Here's the question I have though. Is this really a homebirth/midwifery situation? While I'm fully supportive of the idea of legalizing midwives and homebirths and having standards in training, knowledge and care, would this have mattered for Carri and her son?
As I said, I'm finding all this information after the fact. But, I see lots of reference to Carri being a UCer. Why did she seek miwifery care? When did she seek midwifery care? And, would she have sought a doctor if her midwife told her to?
Thing is, fron what I can gather, this woman was deep in the Patriarchial movement. The homebirth movement at large and even the UC movement is different than the Patriarchial movement. If this woman was UCing because she believed in women's rights, in choices in birth and in rejecting modern medicine.
In this case it sounds a lot like a decision made by or because of the pressure of the husband. If the motivation to UC is to please the husband, either because he's made it clear he doesn't want to pay for care or because he has outright dictated this course of action, then what good will it do to improve homebirthing and midwifery options? Any woman UCing to please her Dh is simply not going to go to the doctor even when a competent midwife washes her hands of the risks and tells her to GO.
I've personally watched women in the Patriarchal movement ignore sound medical advice for all kinds of needs at the instruction of their husbands. I've watched them put their lives, intact bodies and their children at risk when the husband says to do it. Yes, I've watched loving husbands demand a reluctant wife get care. But, the danger of Patriarchy is when the husband does NOT literally lay down his life for his wife, patriarchy says that even in the face of his failure, she is to submit and if it results in her death, then she will be rewarded in paradise.
From what I can gather in the aftermath, this was about what extremes Patriarchy will take a woman to, not necessarily the homebirth movement in general.
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Post by rejoice on Jun 25, 2009 12:08:42 GMT -5
What a sad time for this family to be going through.
I am sure that Carrie loved her baby very much and was not out to kill him or herself. I have done some research on Amniotic fluid embolism. From what I have read, there is no way she could have known she would have this. Also, it is very common for a normal pregnant mother to have some ups and downs on her blood pressure. And it is also very common, the older we get, that we will become more tired with later pregnancies.
I believe you are judging Carrie's actions wrongly. Obviously she loves her babies or she would have shut her womb years ago. People do not keep having babies for a popularity contest.
I am sorry that some of you have gotten so absorbed in such a sad forum as this one. "No Longer Quiverfull." All "Quiverfull minded" means is that you trust God to plan the size of your family. And not having sex is not a good test. After all that is the way God designed the process. Many couples use family planning methods to prevent them from conceiving without artificial birth control and they succeed. Others try and try and they do not conceive as many as some. You cannot judge this poor woman for choosing an unassisted birth after having so many children. And you cannot predict that her son would have survived even if born in the hospital. We just do not know these things.
I do agree that I would not be able to go for a UB, but I will not judge another woman who chooses that. And it has nothing to do with me being Pro Choice. I am not. The baby MAY have been saved if she would have delivered in a hospital, but we do not know that for sure. They definitely would not have thought she had AFE right away. Most of the time the diagnosis for this horrible complication goes undetected until it is almost too late or as late as an autopsy report.
How about using all of that energy of yours and your so-called "grieving" to just try to be the best mothers you can be to your children. If Carrie makes it out of this alive, she will not be the same woman and she does not need a bunch of hound dogs waiting at the gates to tear her apart. She will be grieving the loss of her baby.
You should all feel ashamed of the comments you have made against this woman. You are not in her shoes and you have no idea how she is feeling or how the outcome of this will unfold.
God only knows!!!
Angela
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jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by jo on Jun 25, 2009 12:12:12 GMT -5
And, I will add that so many women in this movement are so entrenched that they have lost their sense of self. They will fully believe the choice and desire is their own because they stop thinking for themselves. Any thought that would suggest doubt, a lack of faith or a lack of submission to authority would not be permitted to be admitted.
Even if a woman in this situation says its all her idea, I noticed this one expressed doubt but did not follow through. That leads me to believe there were outside influences in her choices and not merely her own. In that case, what the midwife said really wouldn't have mattered.
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Post by sargassosea on Jun 25, 2009 13:58:27 GMT -5
Rejoice -
For a lady who doesn't judge other ladies, you sure seem to be judging ("You should all feel ashamed of the comments you have made against this woman.") the ladies here at NLQ.
And how do you 'close your womb' anyway - siriusly?
*edited to make clear whom I was addressing...
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Post by rejoice on Jun 25, 2009 14:04:12 GMT -5
Wonderful news!
Here is an Update from Carrie's husband:
To God be the glory! Carri is continuing to be wrapped by the healing hands of God! Her progress is truly remarkable and her strength has astounded me. It is all because our creator has a plan for her life and continues to want to have her here with us. Thank you Jesus for your tender mercy on my wife's life!
Thank you Jesus for the glory you will receive from this. And thank you Jesus for all those who have not stopped praying and thinking about our family. You are truly the chief surgeon of our lives. I am forever grateful that you spared your son, Jesus so I could receive this mercy and strength in this time. Give all praises and glory to your son through this time and do not let any part of this be lifted up to the carnal man.
Carri had several ultrasound performed yesterday to make sure that some of her organs were not damaged; heart and kidneys to be specific. The results came back that all is in perfect working condition!!! Praise God!! This morning the doctor took her off the oxygen and has put her on soft solids. She is drinking a lot of water and LOVES the lemon icy's! They will be starting physical therapy. The PT is for exercise since she has been in bed not for physical limitations. She will be moving off the ICU floor today as well!!!!!!!! !!!!! God is so good!! The best news of all, the doctors are starting to mention about a time frame when Carri might be able to come home. What a testimony she will have when she returns.
I am so thankful to our Lord for friends in the Christian faith. Because of people calling, texting, Emailing and blogging to let me know they were praying for Carri and our family, I have received peace through this time; thank you all again for your love to my wife and family through this time of crisis.
I have had several conversations with different people asking how they might help and please know that I am working on getting arrangements set up so that this can be possible. I will be setting up a PayPal account to honor my son, Benaniah James. I hope to have this up and running soon, so please be patient with me. I am very grateful to those I have spoken with and I feel humbled by this experience.
God bless all of you!! (Christians and non-believers) May the love of God find you and give you peace, and give you peace forever!
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Post by rejoice on Jun 25, 2009 14:10:16 GMT -5
I am not judging anyone here at all. I am saying that you are talking about something that you or I cannot fully understand and you should feel bad about that.
How can you shut your womb? You know the answer to that: Get it removed...Get your tubes cut and burned (VERY small chance of coming together)and have your husband have a vasectomy. I only say this to answer the question. I am in no way encouraging it.
Well, the wonderful update has been given. I hope that Carrie can return home as soon as possible where she belongs and her family can have all the love and support they need to get through this. Her baby is with Jesus. That is a comfort we can all hold on to.
Angela
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Post by jemand on Jun 25, 2009 15:03:12 GMT -5
Rejoice, are you a Christian? Because even a very casual perusal of your holy book makes it clear that the god described within has absolutely zero issues with overriding biological impediments to conception, such as, say.... abstinence?
I'm pretty certain that if such a god existed there would literally be nothing you could do to avoid a child he wanted to put into existence. Heck, for all I know, he could get a man pregnant. It just seems so odd to me as an atheist to see believers say all the things their god apparently has no power over, and then describe it as "omnipotent."
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Post by rejoice on Jun 25, 2009 15:31:23 GMT -5
I would never say that God could not perform a miracle.
I only answered a question. But thanks for sharing your thoughts on it!
Yes, I am a Christian.
~Angela
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Post by rejoice on Jun 25, 2009 15:33:54 GMT -5
I wanted to add that I have not come to this forum to convince anyone of anything at all. I only found out about Carrie's story, did a search, and found this place. I felt compelled to say something. ~Angela
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Post by krwordgazer on Jun 25, 2009 15:51:09 GMT -5
Well-- my take on it would be that God does not often override the natural functioning that God set up in the physical world. But see-- that works both ways. It is normal for the human female to become fertile on a monthly cycle. If her partner is fertile, and they have intercourse at the right time, the natural functioning of their bodies will mean she will get pregnant. The fact that God does not step in and supernaturally prevent it does not automatically mean the resulting child was God's perfect will. This is evidenced by the fact that children are conceived out of wedlock, although out-of-wedlock births are clearly not God's will according to the Scriptures. My position on this is that of many other Christians-- that God purposefully limits the exercise of omnipotence, to allow for the human exercise of free will. This is not to say every child is not a blessing-- because every child is made in the image of God. But I do not think every time a woman conceives, it's because God made it happen-- any more than I think every time a rock falls off a cliff, it's because God pulled it down. My husband and I use birth control, and we prayed together for the guidance of the Holy Spirit on when not to use it (with an eye on our finances as good stewards of God's provision). I really do not see how that is a less "godly" method of family planning than Quiverful's-- besides being much healthier for my body and our finances. Anyway, Rejoice-- we are certainly not "a bunch of hound dogs waiting at the gates to tear Carri apart." I really cannot see how you could think that, from the posts you have read here. Every post has expressed some form of sorrow for Carri. Along the same lines, regarding those of us who have come to this forum as part of a healing process-- is it really fair for you to dismiss their pain by calling it "so-called grieving"? Is that not doing the same thing to us that you are accusing us of doing to Carri?
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Post by rosa on Jun 25, 2009 15:57:30 GMT -5
krwordgazer - just because you mentioned that rocks fall down without God pulling on them (and because i don't get enough opportunity to talk about my kid) - my son was jumping on the bed yesterday and fell down and bumped his elbow. He came running over to be held, crying and saying "Why did gravity push me down like that! I didn't want to fall down. Why did gravity make me fall?"
I think a lot of people hold onto that reasoning - I didn't *mean* for it to go that way, but *somebody* must have, because it happened.
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Post by rejoice on Jun 25, 2009 16:03:01 GMT -5
Well, I wish the best to all of you and hope you find some compassion for Carrie in your hearts for her and her family. The baby is not suffering. She is. I do not even know this woman. My being just a mortal person has caused me to grieve "with" her in some way and I look forward to her going home soon.
We all go through difficult times in our lives. We make decisions based on so many things and feelings that people cannot understand. We need to have compassion for others.
I stumbled onto this forum with the hopes of finding out some news about Carrie. All I found here were people blaming her for the death of this innocent child. None of us can say that everything would have turned out for the good if she would have planned a hospital birth. Even planned hospital births end in disaster at times...And in her case, like most women she may have labored at home for a while before going in. Not many women go to the hospital as soon as the first contractions hits. The complication that she had could not have been diagnosed or even predicted. It is something that happens VERY rarely. Most people have never even heard of it.
With all of that said; all we can do is live until we die. We need to make the best decisions for our families with the knowlege we have at the time. We cannot look down on others for choosing to do things differently than someone else. And we cannot predict the outcome in any given situation. We make choices and decisions based on our own life's experiences.
We need to just be there for those who are grieving, because we will need the support when we go through difficult times as well. And as a mother, we would blame ourselves for the rest of our life if we felt we were responsible for the death of one of our children. It would be a hard burden to carry. We learn, we grow, and we just keep learning. We have one life to live and we do not know everything there is to know.
Have compassion now, because you just may be the one needing it later. We can encourage each other along the way and be a shoulder to cry on as well. We are humans and we are not promised a bed of roses in life.
Life is about choices...sadly, our choices may not be the best.
Sincerely,
Angela
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