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Post by grandmalou on Jun 25, 2009 16:05:50 GMT -5
Rejoice; Welcome to this 'sad forum'...I am quoting you here, but please understand not in judgement... "I am sorry that some of you have gotten so absorbed in such a sad forum as this one. If Carrie makes it out of this alive, she will not be the same woman and she does not need a bunch of hound dogs waiting at the gates to tear her apart. She will be grieving the loss of her baby. You should all feel ashamed of the comments you have made against this woman. You are not in her shoes and you have no idea how she is feeling or how the outcome of this will unfold. God only knows!!! Angela[/quote]"
I am Vyckie's mother...she is in Minneapolis right now with three daughters who had surgery this morning.
The reason for this sad forum, is because several of the women on here have found the QF/Patriarchal life style to be abusive to the max. Please search this forum and read some of the horror stories these women share. I thoroughly agree Carrie needs the arms of many loved ones at this tragic time...and know she will have them. The last thing any of us here wish is for her to be torn apart and handed her head over this ordeal. I really believe that what you encountered in the beginning of your reading experience here was generalized anger...not at any one person in particular, but at the whole mindset of a populace that expects women to kowtow to any man who 'requires' them to literally lay their life on the line for THEM...and we don't know if Carrie's husband is one of those types. There are also women on this forum who are QF and love it...I am sure that those women have husbands who are very Christ-like in their love for them and their families...it cannot be a very pleasant life style if it were any other way. I for one cannot imagine every day of my life with squalling little ones puking, pooping, nursing, riding on my hip while trying to bathe another one, while looking out the window as another one gets ready to run into the street, and look up in time to see 'the old man' walk through the door yelling, "WOMAN! Where's my DINNER!!!" as his fist is drawn back to slam her into a wall. And this is why this forum got started. So...Grandma here, saying...please...let us love and support each other, and just please read between the lines and be encouragers...OK? My 2 cents...
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Post by krwordgazer on Jun 25, 2009 16:18:21 GMT -5
Angela-- with all respect, you came in here and read one thread, or part of a thread, of posts. You think you see a lack of compassion for Carri. I don't think what you see is accurate. You say you don't know Carri. Well, you don't know us, either. I think you are jumping to certain conclusions based on a partial reading of a forum you are unfamiliar with, together (possibly) with certain preconceptions about what kind of people we are here. We are all human, as you say, and life on this planet isn't easy. The anger you have seen here isn't about Carri-- it's about certain ways of looking at religion that have been personally harmful to us. We perceive that it may have been harmful to Carri as well. If we are wrong-- well, we're fallible. When you've been burned, it's hard not to be wary of the kind of stove that burned you. Peace to you. (Edit -- I posted at the same time as Grandmalou-- she said it much better than I could have. )
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Post by rejoice on Jun 25, 2009 16:19:26 GMT -5
"Grandma",
I really appreciate your comments here and I can understand how part of real grieving is "anger." It is definitely a step towards acceptance. But, many of the comments just seemed very cruel.
Thank you for taking the time to write me...
~Sincerely,
Angel
PS. I sincerely doubt Carrie's husband is the type of man you described. As a matter of fact, it is very sad, more than sad, that this character type of a man has been associated with a Christian husband/father. It simply is not true. Most of America claims to be Christian. Following Christ is the definition of a Christian...not a harsh, unloving, arragant demanding man.
As for Quiverfull minded. I would have to say that it is mostly the woman or both wanting so many children overall. At least that is from my personal experience. After all, the woman is the main care provider for the little ones as she nurses them and cares for them throughout the day while daddy is at work...
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Post by hopewell on Jun 25, 2009 16:21:04 GMT -5
I'm sure I'll be flamed to death, bbq-d in fact, but I can't help but wonder after reading Carri's hubby's "update" how soon she'll be "expecting" again. I think given the title and tone of this blog "No Longer Quivering"] I doubt I'm the only one worried about this. She is, of course, "free" to chose that road, but I sincerely hope our Lord Closes her womb now.....
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Post by jemand on Jun 25, 2009 16:24:01 GMT -5
"Grandma", After all, the woman is the main care provider for the little ones as she nurses them and cares for them throughout the day while daddy is at work... lol, you realize that this is a forum pretty much filled to the brim with feminists? You realize that bit of stereotypical sexist gender role-assumptions isn't really going to go over well here, even if you mention it "innocently" because you don't even realize how harmful it can be? I'm sure you're a very nice person and I think life has been very nice to you-- but I don't think you know very much about this forum or have really taken the time to read any of our stories.
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Post by jemand on Jun 25, 2009 16:26:02 GMT -5
I'm sure I'll be flamed to death, bbq-d in fact, but I can't help but wonder after reading Carri's hubby's "update" how soon she'll be "expecting" again. I think given the title and tone of this blog "No Longer Quivering"] I doubt I'm the only one worried about this. She is, of course, "free" to chose that road, but I sincerely hope our Lord Closes her womb now..... I actually wouldn't be surprised if they performed a emergency hysterectomy-- after all there was mention of "surgery to control bleeding" or something... and putting it together with ICU for days and the apparently very bad shape she was in, it's likely they couldn't save her uterus.
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Post by rejoice on Jun 25, 2009 16:29:16 GMT -5
Krwordgazer,
I respect and agree with much of what you have said.
The sad truth is real Christianity is seldom seen on this earth. Even as a Christian myself, it is very hard to find fellowship with ones who sincerely want to live a life pleasing to the Lord.
Aside from being a Christian, I am a woman who has compassion for those suffering.
I wish you the very best in life. I hope that you can find out about the real "stove" you got burned on and find healing in the Lord Jesus!
Sincerely, Angela
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Post by krwordgazer on Jun 25, 2009 16:36:33 GMT -5
Angela, I am a Christian too-- and I know the stove I got burned on. It's called "spiritual abuse," and it was at the hands of a coercive religious organization. It was long ago, and I have found ways to forgive and be healed-- but there are many here who are still early in the process. Because I know what it's like, I'm here to give my support to them in any way I can.
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Post by jadehawk on Jun 25, 2009 17:41:54 GMT -5
must.not.start.argument.over.hypocritical.statements......
agrrrrghhhh!!!!!!
*head go boom*
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Post by dandydeluxe on Jun 25, 2009 17:48:21 GMT -5
"The sad truth is real Christianity is seldom seen on earth"
Dear Celestial Traveler,
May I inquire where you have imbibed real Christianity?
Will my one way ticket to Pluto open my eyes?
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Post by arietty on Jun 25, 2009 19:07:44 GMT -5
I am so happy she is not going to die and that it appears she may recover well!!
Rejoice I think the majority of anger in this situation is directed at the midwife who really does seem to be living in lala land. A woman in her 9th pregnancy, supposedly carrying twins, overdue, by her own words feeling that something is not right.. this is a lot of good reasons to go get some OB care, ultrasound to confirm the "twins" were okay, measure the amniotic fluid etc.. really if nothing was wrong that would have only served to be reassuring for the mother. If there was something amiss to not seek this care out is negligent. It is hard to make good choices sometimes when you are heavily pregnant, exhausted and worried and you look to your medical carer to help you make good choices. In this case this mom's pre-birth care was negligent and not respecting of her own worries. No this did not cause the embolism but that doesn't make it any less negligent.
I have 8 children myself and have had one home birth. All my births have been midwife care and midwife delivered, a normal thing where I live. I am angry when I hear about a midwife putting ideology over medicine, whether that ideology is from the "Birth in Zion" style teaching or whether it is way out newage your-body-knows-all teaching. Seen and heard about terrible midwife care from both those perspectives.
I am not mad at Carri, I am mad at the woman she trusted.
And let me add that this is not a "sad forum". It is full of real people from very divergent life backgrounds. In my experience the patriarchal movement attracts men who are arrogant and flawed in some way. No this is not the only kind of men involved but it is an attractive thing to hear for a man who never felt in charge of anything, perhaps has failed at his work choices or felt frustrated by his lack of success in life. They listen to this teaching and all of a sudden they get to be the KING in their own home and all their pettiness and arrogance and selfishness is sanctioned as God's Divine Plan. And that uppity woman they married can just shut up now.
I am now married to a man who would be quite repulsed by all this teaching if he bothered to listen to it.. the need to control and lead is just not a part of his make up. He does the stuff he is good at and I do the stuff I am good at and our household runs smoothly without needing to have a "head", LOL.
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Post by arietty on Jun 25, 2009 19:21:21 GMT -5
I've personally watched women in the Patriarchal movement ignore sound medical advice for all kinds of needs at the instruction of their husbands. I've watched them put their lives, intact bodies and their children at risk when the husband says to do it. Yes, I've watched loving husbands demand a reluctant wife get care. But, the danger of Patriarchy is when the husband does NOT literally lay down his life for his wife, patriarchy says that even in the face of his failure, she is to submit and if it results in her death, then she will be rewarded in paradise. I had a dear friend when I was QF (her husband does not allow her to talk to me anymore) who had some serious medical and psychiatric problems. Her husband HATED doctors and never thought they were necessary. Even when one of their children had heart surgery he refused to have anything to do with it, wouldn't talk to the doctor or accompany his wife to the hospital. My friend's own problems got so bad she had to have another homeschooling woman come over under the ruse of taking her shopping and secretly take her to the doctor for the care she needed. The husband eventually found out about it and threatened to throw his wife out on the street if she continued to take the medication but he did not follow through on this because he needed 3 hot meals a day and someone to educate and care for his large family of children. This man, while not cruel or violent, was a complete dictator in everything his family did. I always remember how his children were not allowed to eat things he himself disliked, such as peanut butter. Another homeschooler told me that she had the mom and kids over to her house once and she served the kids peanut butter sandwiches and the mom made them all promise not to let the dad know.. and the kids were just thrilled about this like it was some forbidden pleasure (which it was). Multiply this kind of crap by 1000 and that was their life.
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Post by grandmalou on Jun 25, 2009 19:46:06 GMT -5
Rejoice...Angel...Again I quote you: "After all, the woman is the main care provider for the little ones as she nurses them and cares for them throughout the day while daddy is at work...[/quote]" Ironically, today's Oprah show was about women who are so burned out from trying to 'do it all' and do it with perfection, that some of them have even left their babies in car seats for 8 hours, forgotten in garages, sleeping and locked in their cars, etc. and there was a man who is a Zen person on there through Skype who said the first person women should turn to for help was their husband!!! Oy, vey!!! And HA! When Vyckie was a baby I was working nights at a hospital...Jimmy (my son) was 6 and in school, Sandy (my oldest daughter) was about a year and a half older than Vyckie. Vyckie's dad (who I have NEVER talked about because I didn't want to even think about him ever again) left us alone every morning while he went with his buddies to shoot pool and steal hub caps. And drink Pepsi, which was his ONLY form of nutrition. And he expected me and the kids to live on that too. I used to BEG him with tears to stay home with the kids so I could sleep before I had to go to work. He never did. And he spent everything I made on pool and his buds, etc., and the final straw was when I had averaged about 3 hours sleep per day (kids nap time) for five months and woke up one afternoon when the kids naps were over, to find all there was in the house for Vyckie, toothless, to eat, was mac and cheese with enough ketchup on it to make it runny for her. Mashed up with a fork. No milk, formula, baby food, NADA! For the rest of us, not even a potato. I went to work that night, knowing my children went to bed hungry with him dead to the world and I worried all night about what might happen if they woke up and got into something dangerous...and he slept through it all. The next morning I told him take me back to my folks' house and he did. I had a nervous breakdown from sheer exhaustion. Cried for three solid days and nights. Definitely not over him though.
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Post by kisekileia on Jun 26, 2009 1:35:25 GMT -5
Hey Rejoice, it doesn't show much Christian charity to troll a forum when the mod is away.
Just sayin'.
*Edit* Okay, maybe that was a little unfair of me. You probably didn't know Vyckie was away. If I accidentally ran across a forum I thought was incredibly destructive to people, I'd probably say something, too.
Nonetheless, please listen to grandmalou, and please consider how prideful and dangerous the attitude of "very few people are true Christians, but I am" is.
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calulu
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by calulu on Jun 26, 2009 8:26:57 GMT -5
rejoice, the facts are a) Carri had a lot of the precursors for AFE, multipara, high blood pressure, age with a post maturity fetus, a large fetus and a few others that escape me now. She was predisposed to AFE even if it cannot be accurately predicted who will get it.
She was nearly three weeks overdue and relying on the care and medical advice of a midwife, like Vyckies, who was advocating the type of care that has more in common with voodoo doyennes and Granny Clampett than real medicine. Had a competent midwife been her care provider she would have almost certainly been referred to a medical facility for a fetal stress test, a better ultrasound and other tests. It's likely they would have induced her labor two weeks before she went into labor and she and the baby would have been alright. Even, God forfend, if she had suffered AFE in the course of her early delivery with medical care, she would have been treated earlier and the baby and herself would have both had better odds than what happened.
Unfortunately Carri's midwife told her it was twins, told her to read a book and believes that sticking a flashlight near your vagina is the best way to turn a breech baby. That is reprehensible.
No one at this board has ever expressed anything but sorrow for Carri and her baby. Senseless death makes me angry, the neglect or abuse of a child, even a unborn baby, makes me really angry.
I personally believe the blame lies primarily with the midwife and to a lesser degree with the husband. I have to wonder how much of this birthing alone at home stated because the husband expressed a distrust of doctors and medicine stemming from the high costs and pressured Carri in a passive aggressive way to believe it. Plus, as the so-called family head he has seriously failed in doing what is best for his family. He should have noticed that this pregnancy was different than the others, Carri expressed that, and done what he could to ensure that Carri at least got a midwife with real credentials.
The one I feel the most sorry for is Carri. She'll have to live with the consequences of her failure to protect her unborn child the rest of her life. I believe deep down she knew all along that something wasn't right. She sure expressed that a number of times on her blog.
She's a good mother, all you have to do is see those photos of her kids, scrubbed, apple-cheeked and smiling, to see the kind of care she took of them. My heart breaks for her and the kids.
Stupid husband will not even hold a job. *grumbles*
I believe the husband Mark took down the blog in an attempt to hide the mismanagement of her case that the midwives did and his own lack of protecting his wife and doing what's best for his family.
Unassisted birth or fundamentalism is NOT the core issue here, it's bad medical advice by untrained lay midwifes.
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Post by hopewell on Jun 26, 2009 8:55:32 GMT -5
"she is to submit and if it results in her death, then she will be rewarded in paradise."
This reminds me of the Muslim suicide bombers--dying in order to be rewarded with all those virgins they'll be given in heaven. And, about as realistic.
Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Mark will GROW UP after this "stunt" robbed him of another Arrow for his precious Quiver and he will start to care for his God-given wife, loving her truly as Jesus loved his Church--not just "rewarding" her with diapers?? I doubt it.... I feel for the oldest girls. They are Mommys full-time right now and for some time to come. Since it's summer at least they may not have to do all the homeschooling too. Maybe Mark's Dad can introduce him to the "want ads" and he can find a job....oh, that's right, a job is not for him. He has to spend his time Glorifying God and being "Head" of his family. I truly believe this birth went the way it did because this man wouldn't, couldn't pay for a hospital. He won't get up and WORK to support his family. Now the taxpayers get to foot the bill. Poor Carri--having to "keep sweet" [woops, my bad! Wrong cult] for her precious husband. How could you ever recover under such "loving" care as she'll likely get from him.
I am a Christian, but this type life makes me puke. Jesus did not love his Church in this way. I know there are white collar professionals [or former-] in QF, but most seem to be men the world would truthfully call "losers."
Carri--with your sewing talent you could support your kids yourself. My cousin, a decorator, always needs people to do custom pillows and drapes. Alterations are another good one. Beauty Pageant outfits, dance cosutmers and custom or heirloom baby clothes all make good money. Toss the bum out and fire up the sewing machine. You'll be much, much happier than bowing and scarping to him! AND, your kids can have health insurance from the state. Homeschool is fine--it's not the problem. The hubby is. JMHO
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Post by rosa on Jun 26, 2009 10:19:38 GMT -5
Rebecca, thank you. It has to be hard to tell that story, and take the responsibility you are taking on yourself.
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Post by hopewell on Jun 26, 2009 12:12:04 GMT -5
rebecca--wow! This is what I have seen of women sucked into this movement. As a single mom daring to homeschool, I have met "Christian" judgment at every turn--always from the Moms. Fear and more fear. Fear that gets worse as their self-esteem gets worse. I am glad that there are outlets like this board for women to sound off on. It HAS to help people to think out their decision. It's easy to say "oh, that won't happen to us or me" but getting smacked in the face with some TRUTH is always beneficial--eventually. I applaud you for talking frankly.
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Post by philosophia on Jun 26, 2009 21:50:27 GMT -5
Justrebecca,
Thanks for your post! I agree that it is driven by the fear, and mostly the wife's fear. Once the husband adopts it, that's it! It is a hard thing to admit we have actually put ourselves into this quandry with choices that became an avalanche. (That metaphor was way too mixed.) Worse than the slippery slope we were trying to avoid in the first place!
For me it did not begin with fear, simply, my back to basics attitude that books were better than television, and that making clothes for my daughters was a pleasure, and baking bread was fun.
I was a subscriber to Gentle Spirit Magazine when I first moved into the QF attitude. When I decided to break free Cheryl Lindsey was the first person I thought of. I found this blog after googling Cheryl and reading the Salon Article.
But my point, which I almost lost, is that I agree with you, Rebecca. And I also think women see this movement as a way to add meaning or status to their lives as stay at home mothers. A competition of sorts, as someone stated elsewhere on this forum.
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Post by luneargentee on Jun 27, 2009 0:27:05 GMT -5
I was told to "shut up" and stop telling my story because I was just grumbling and we all have to die sometime. This was said publicly to me on a message board by a Christian woman. This backs up what I believe: fundamentalist Christianity is a death cult.
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Post by princessjo1988 on Jun 28, 2009 3:25:25 GMT -5
Update on Carri on Mothering.com Hello Ladies, I know that my wife is on many forum groups that have to do with birthing and many of you are needing updates. I finally have all the information from Carri so that I can post you all an update as to how she is doing. Below is the update. Thank you all for the prayers and love you poured out unto Carri and our family. Mark
Update on Carri 6-26-09
Along with the angles in heaven; we are rejoicing because Carri has returned home! Praises to our Glorious King in heaven who above all deserves our total dedication to expanding his kingdom. It has been a long road traveled and will continue to be an uphill battle for a spell, but our Lord will strengthen our family through this experience and allow us to grieve our son, Benaniah James. He above all knows the grief that Carri and I are going through because he watched his son who was put to death after leading a perfect life.
Carri and I have been trying to put the puzzle pieces together. We have been asking those (doctors and midwives) who have been giving care to her since the beginning of her pregnancy what their thoughts, if any, were. The response is the same, “this is not something you could have predicted or prevented”. I appreciated and take comfort in our doctor, who has 30 years of experience as an OB/GYN, saying, I have been practicing for 30 years and this is the first time I have seen this”. This has relieved my heart, especially while seeing negative comments, but by all means does not make it any easier to accept. The “what if I did this” or “I wish” have been haunting both Carri and I. Are only wish that we would change is that Benaniah would have made it through.
He is a beautiful boy that looks just like all of our other babies did when they were born. He had a lot of dark black hair and a radiant complexion. He has my feet but Carri’s fingers. He is perfect in every way! We asked the doctor what gestational age he would have put him at, he said thirty nine or forty weeks. Our children made a poster for their momma while she was in the hospital for encouragement. They had a group picture taken then surrounding the group picture were the handprints of all of them done in different color paint. On each of their handprints they had a smaller picture of themselves to identify the handprint. When we received Benaniah’s memory box and pictures and we inserted his handprints and picture to make the board complete.
Momma being home is bitter sweet because now we have to plan on saying goodbye to our little boy whom we’ve so carefully been dedicated to for nine months. I am thankful for all the generosity that has been displayed from our Christian friends through our time of loss and look forward to drawing closer as time goes on. I am thankful for the different thoughts and advice that have been offered while I’ve been deciding how the funeral needs to be arranged. I appreciate how well the funeral home and the burial grounds have accepted my invitation to not do things like the norm, but to allow me the freedom to say goodbye in a way that I think will have a lasting memory for me, my wife and my children.
May God’s grace and mercy be with you all; allow the love and peace of our Lord to shine through you until the day of his return for his people. Carri's husband, Mark www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1103975To me it really doesn't sound like they have learnt anything....It feels to me that they are trying to back up etc out of a situation which doesn't "look good". What are your thoughts? Jo
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calulu
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by calulu on Jun 28, 2009 6:17:56 GMT -5
"Along with the angles in heaven"
*snicker* yeah, I know I'm really praising the angles that Carri is okay.
"We have been asking those (doctors and midwives) who have been giving care to her since the beginning of her pregnancy what their thoughts, if any, were. "
Biggest. Lie. Ever. No midwives were called in until she was due. No doctors until she ended up in the hospital just about dead. Here's another posting from Carri's board that Carri made showing that the only 'medical' exams she was getting during the pregnancy was from her husband, who is neither an MD or a nurse or a CNM.
Any advice or tips ? I am 38 weeks and have 18 give or take days to deliever and my BP is high. We did a roll over test and when I laid on my side it DRopped which was a good sign for us to tell us that it is not Preeclampsia. DH did say may be Gestaional Hypertention...
Would like to gleam from any of you who have had this and what you did .. I am drinking over my water intake and eating the Brewer diet as best I can started on more protien today. This is my first time having it.. Baby's HR is fine between 139-145 in readings.. Thank you
This just all makes my blood boil all over again. They learned nothing, it's back to the same old same old except now they are pretending she get medical care all along. Reprehensible.
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jo
Junior Member
Posts: 73
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Post by jo on Jun 28, 2009 8:47:10 GMT -5
I'm so glad to know there are angles in heaven. I hope there are angels as well. ;D
Honestly, that sounds like they are in denial still. Let's praise the Lord for he knows what we are suffering...
I've only lost babies early in pregnancy. I've never lost one I carried to term. But, those I've watched grappled with term loses, they don't stay upbeat. So, I honestly put very little stock in what is being said at this point by either husband or wife. And, what is being said by the husband is most likely nothing of what is being felt by the wife.
Again, I don't know the full details of this situation. But, my guess is that doctors at this point are really not too likely to tell this couple what could have played out differently if they had sought competent medical care. Even as a homebirther, I see several markers that risked her out of homebirth and should have sent her to an OB, high blood pressure and extreme post-dates. Infant mortality rates for AFE is only 21%. Its a bad statistic. But, it also means that 79% of infants in this situation survive. My last pregnancy, I was induced a month early due to pre-eclampsia. During the course of that, my son went into fetal diestress. His heartrate dropped to 40 and refused to recover even when the doctor rubbed on his head to startle him back awake. I saw first hand how FAST a hospital moves to get an infant out of danger. They had him out of me within 15 minutes, and they slowed down because when they got to the OR he was not in distress anymore. They could have had him out before brain damage hit if necessary.
Seeing a competent caregiver, a woman with high blood pressure that would not resolve itself and post-dates would have been referred to an OB. In that situation, she would have been where her son had a chance to live when the AFE hit.
But, what is the point of telling all of this to a grieving family? Normally not one thing. In this case, it might have been helpful to get through to them a little better.
What I do find interesting is that if I'm seeing accurate explanations from others retelling this, this couple violated one of the cardinal principles of homebirthing, especially UCers. They ignored her instincts that were telling her something was very OFF about the pregnancy.
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Post by coleslaw on Jun 28, 2009 11:00:32 GMT -5
Having had almost 40 years of experience in talking to parents about their children's speech and learning problems, I know there's: 1) What you say 2) What they hear.
I'm certain my doctors and occasional PT's could say the same about me.
Saying that AFE is "not something you could have predicted or prevented”, is not the same as saying that you couldn't have predicted that something was very wrong and that medical help was needed. And I can well believe that it's a rare enough occurrence that a doctor could practice for 30 years and never see it, but that doesn't mean that said doctor wouldn't have said, "Let's get you to a hospital" when the high blood pressure manifested itself.
I agree with jo that the doctors are trying not to go the "coulda, woulda, shoulda" route with grieving parents, one of whom barely survived herself. So I don't think Carri's husband is lying, but I wouldn't take his word about what anyone actually said to him.
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Post by princessjo1988 on Jun 28, 2009 17:17:29 GMT -5
I too think that intervention should have happened earlier: and that now Carri and Mark are trying to do some serious backtracking...
Re: the comment about the midwives: I found it strange that they would even bring that up: considering it was the midwife (this isn't meant to reflect on midwives at large, please don't misundertand me) that was offering clearly strange and wrong advice and by my estimation was a "quack". But the blame is also on them because they didn't seek a second opinion until it was too late: as you mentioned Calulu, they just chose to rely on the midwife (quack: she gives all midwives a bad name) and the husband (whom was only training in god knows what: something to do with anatomy etc: Carri mentioned it).
Not good. Not healthy. And this result proves it: and sadly now we have a dead baby. Not fair. Not nice.
Rest in peace baby boy.
Jo
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