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Post by grievousangle on Jun 28, 2009 21:38:44 GMT -5
Along with the angles in heaven; we are rejoicing because Carri has returned home! I'll bet he's rejoicing; gets him off the dishwashing squad. On behalf of all the angles not in heaven I just want to say that I agree with Good Luneargentee. "Fundamentalist Christianity is a death cult."
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Post by hopewell on Jun 29, 2009 14:22:59 GMT -5
This Man, Mark, must SMELL the police coming. Nothing but lies. I'm sure poor Carri is using what's left of her strength to "praise" him for his excellent decisions in this matter, too. Sick. Just sick. I'm still praying for Carri and the kids though.
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calulu
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by calulu on Jun 29, 2009 14:34:03 GMT -5
Grievous, lmao @ your name! it's just too ironic and funny all at the same time. Are your angles praising God that Carri survived?
Hopewell, that's where my prayers are about this, for those poor kids and for Carri. But especially the kids. Can you imagine the catastrophic upheaval and trauma this has been for all those very sheltered beautiful children? Makes me angry all over again.
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Post by princessjo1988 on Jun 29, 2009 17:13:12 GMT -5
Rejoice: As a matter of fact, it is very sad, more than sad, that this character type of a man has been associated with a Christian husband/father. It simply is not true. Most of America claims to be Christian. Following Christ is the definitionof a Christian...not a harsh, unloving, arragant demanding man. I must point out to "rejoice" and others that share that opinion that these are men that for all intents and purposes, do follow Christ. Apart from their "abusive" side, these are men that know their doctrine and follow it, to the extreme many times. Yours is a faith that preaches forgiveness: a doctrine I, and many others, followed in dealing with these men: were told by the church to follow in dealing with these men, in fact. I am not saying that these men didn't use the biblical doctrine for their own purposes at times, but they also honestly believed in Christ/Jesus, the Bible alone, etc. If you were to meet them on the street, without knowing the full picture, or during one of their "forgiveness periods", you would say that they were fantastic Christians, that they embodied the way Christ turns around lives etc. As for the association remark: NLQ is filled with similar stories: all men, whom for all intents and purposes, were (acted like) Christians but whom in the privacy of their homes turned into psychopaths, narcissists etc. There is a patten there, seeping under the surface of families that appear to have escaped the "dark belly of the beast" and have lived the quiverfull/fundamental ideal sucessfully. Jo
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Post by grievousangle on Jun 29, 2009 20:09:28 GMT -5
Grievous, lmao @ your name! it's just too ironic and funny all at the same time. Are your angles praising God that Carri survived? Hopewell, that's where my prayers are about this, for those poor kids and for Carri. But especially the kids. Can you imagine the catastrophic upheaval and trauma this has been for all those very sheltered beautiful children? Makes me angry all over again. Calulu, there is no god to praise. And if there were, what omniscient being worth a shit would EVER crave anyone's praise? If God is god then God's the bomb and it doesn't need praise, or a dick, either, so drop the "he" cause it might just be a "she". Just sayin' ;D I do not wish any harm to come to Carri or Mark Chmielewski or any of their kids. I am grievous for them. I think they have been done harm by their philosophy, the very same way Vyckie and her family were harmed by it. What if Vyckie had not gone to get Angel? She could have lost her child much the same way the Chmielewskis lost Ben. They are ALL the victims of charlatans and pitchmen and petty criminal shamans, most of them also thoroughly deluded. If I could wish ONE thing for them it would be this. Freedom for their minds. They do not have it. No fundamentalist has it. You cannot say your mind is free when you believe there is a madman god willing to toss you into hell over your daydreams.
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Post by hopewell on Jun 30, 2009 10:50:43 GMT -5
"Can you imagine the catastrophic upheaval and trauma this has been for all those very sheltered beautiful children? "
I think of the oldest girls having to do it all and get mad at Mark all over.
I imagine their Daddy is watching the state budget debate in Indiana to see if the Child Welfare Workers are laid off today. I sincerely hope the investigation into this case began with her admission to the hospital. Yes, that would be unbelievably traumatic for those poor kids and for Carri. It takes a real mess to be worthy of removing the kids, but it might just scare the Dad into some sanity. [FYI--my kids were taken from the birth mother, so I do know about the stress this causes and what it can do to kids. No, I don't really think these children deserve to lose a loving, if seriously misguided Mom]
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Post by babykaoss on Jun 30, 2009 11:14:51 GMT -5
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Post by jemand on Jun 30, 2009 11:37:48 GMT -5
thanks for your input... I think we've tried to be careful here not to be too quick to call for state mandates and push for more options for mothers while still calling on those mothers to be responsible in their use of those options. I liked your blog post. And the one commenter who is facing an unassisted birth not because she really wants to, but because she has no other option other than a hospital where her wishes will be countermanded and overruled by doctors who think they can live her life better than she can...
It points to what I've been trying to say all along. Trying to stop UC births by regulating mothers and midwives-- only backfires. MORE women and children are put at risk. Instead, we should regulate hospitals and doctors, to ensure that pregnant and birthing women are given the same right to informed consent that any other patient does, and that doctors do not misuse their authority and physical advantages to force things on women.
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Post by sargassosea on Jun 30, 2009 11:45:47 GMT -5
To which "group of people" are you referring? I'm sure you aren't talking about us here at NLQ - because we, as a group, don't go in for blanket condemning of anything, especially what women choose to do with their own bodies. We do, however, take exception when a woman is not truly allowed a choice and places herself in danger. As NLQ's newest member, feel free to introduce yourself here: nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=intro
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Post by jemand on Jun 30, 2009 11:49:01 GMT -5
late sea! she's already introduced herself. I think we're all cross posting.
ETA, lol, yup, just noticed you'd already replied to the intro.
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Post by babykaoss on Jun 30, 2009 11:55:24 GMT -5
late sea! she's already introduced herself. I think we're all cross posting. ETA, lol, yup, just noticed you'd already replied to the intro. Ha, yep....posted too hastily....I really appreciate Summer's blog post, and thought maybe the people taking part in this discussion would too, and didn't mean to take credit for it. Not MY blog.
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Post by babykaoss on Jun 30, 2009 11:59:00 GMT -5
To which "group of people" are you referring? I'm sure you aren't talking about us here at NLQ - because we, as a group, don't go in for blanket condemning of anything, especially what women choose to do with their own bodies. We do, however, take exception when a woman is not truly allowed a choice and places herself in danger. As NLQ's newest member, feel free to introduce yourself here: nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=intro I take the same exception. And I felt this conversation needed a voice saying that the choice to UC doesn't always have anything to do with a religious belief, a man's voice in authority, or anything other than true, intelligent and thoughtfully pondered freedom of CHOICE.
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Post by jemand on Jun 30, 2009 12:15:25 GMT -5
late sea! she's already introduced herself. I think we're all cross posting. ETA, lol, yup, just noticed you'd already replied to the intro. Ha, yep....posted too hastily....I really appreciate Summer's blog post, and thought maybe the people taking part in this discussion would too, and didn't mean to take credit for it. Not MY blog. oops! sorry for the mis-attribution! It was a good link though.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jun 30, 2009 23:32:58 GMT -5
Hi Everyone. This past week has really been overwhelming for me. I read the news about Carri losing her baby on Monday evening ~ and totally reacted ~ physically, emotionally, mentally. Not really good timing considering that the next day I had to drive to Minneapolis for the three girls' surgery. I've been majorly distressed ~ feeling like I've been hurled back into my quivering days ~ recalling all that was going through my mind at the time ~ the bible verses, the endless proclamations of faith and trust in the Lord ~ the way I convinced myself because of my ideology to "stay on the cross" when I really, really wanted to flee to hospital and just "surrender" to the doctors and all their technology ~ just to be done with the misery of all the complications I experienced in my pregnancies. But ~ I always managed to calm myself ~ to hold onto my faith. Looking back ~ it just really pisses me off to think that NOTHING was preventing me from going to the doctor except my own mind. I was experiencing absolute mental, emotional and physical torture day in and day out for months ~ and the farther along in my pregnancies, the worse it got ~ and I just took it ~ willingly, even gratefully as I believed that my agony meant that God considered me worthy to suffer as Jesus suffered. It's bad enough that I put myself through all that ~ but even worse to realize that I was thanking God through it all. GAG So ~ between that and the girls' surgeries ~ I'm really feeling wiped out now. I was thinking that the NLQ blog and forum has really gotten off track ever since I posted about Carri ~ kind of gone off on a tangent. I'm thinking that I need to get back to writing my story ~ except that I left off with the news that I was expecting our first "reversal baby" ~ and so the next installment really should be about all the horrors of my nightmare pregnancy with Hazelle. I already feel like there's been so much about my pregnancies ~ I'm turning NLQ into a birth story blog ~ uck. But really ~ this IS what NLQ is all about. For QF women ~ so much of life is pregnancy, childbirth, and babies. If it seems like that's all I write about ~ then consider that at least it's an accurate picture of the QF lifestyle. It was pregnancy after pregnancy after pregnancy ... I went to Carri's blog earlier today and read the posts ~ saw the pictures of her with her little baby boy. I had such a conflict of thoughts ~ here's a hurting, grieving family ~ they seem like such sweet, loving people ~ they're just doing the best they can ~ coping in the only way they know how. I felt ashamed to be "witnessing" such a deeply personal and painful episode in the life of this beautiful family. And yet ~ there it is on public display on the internet. WTF? It makes me feel like, hey ~ Carri wants the whole world in on this. So then I don't feel like such an intruder for having written her a letter. I get the feeling that she's already read it because of this not-so-subtle defense on her blog: Carri herself knew from the beginning that this pregnancy was different and felt that there would be a problem. I remember her saying as much when she first joined the boards. After four unassisted births she felt led to have a midwife attend this one. We are our own experts on our bodies. Whether you believe it's God, intuition, fate or whatever it is so important to listen to what you hear from within. Carri is alive today because she trusted that voice. To me that is what UP/UC is all about; allowing yourself to be undisturbed by outside influences and to hear what is going on insideThis doesn't surprise me at all ~ BTDT. I covered up ~ I denied, rationalized, justified, and excused away every criticism ~ and I believed every word I said ~ I did all of this for the sake of my testimony. I'm a little chagrined now to think that those to whom I felt such a desperate need to "witness to" ~ probably saw through all my self-delusion ~ I wonder if all the time that I was doing my very best to appear "blessed" ~ they were actually disgusted, angry ~ wishing they could shake me and say, "Please! ~ NO MORE QUIVERING!"
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Post by avavirginia on Jul 1, 2009 0:33:34 GMT -5
Vyckie, I want to send a big hug your way I feel very similarly about my "quivering days". The way I talked myself out of my real feelings and re framed anything negative as being "good" for me is one of my biggest points of hurt and anger. I too think my non religious family and friends saw right through it. I feel embarrassed, robbed and angry that what I trusted so much to bring good ultimately enabled so much harm.
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Post by arietty on Jul 1, 2009 1:09:45 GMT -5
Such a big and nice looking baby.. so very sad to read about the funeral. Yes it is weird to have that all on a public blog, but people are different. Often when a family loses a baby the baby becomes "forgotten", not mentioned by friends and family members and that can be very hurtful. So maybe for them this is a good thing.. the whole blog is full of pictures of the children, and their little boy is there too.
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Post by castor on Jul 1, 2009 2:46:55 GMT -5
Awww Vyckie, a hug from me too. And yes those you "witnessed" to were probably angry, and very worried. It's how I feel about my friend (and I tell her sometimes. In less than sweet ways. And then I feel guilty). I can understand you don't like knowing that. If my friend ever gets out I suspect she'll feel the same way (was that how I saw her life, her choices?), and I feel sorry for her. But at least she hasn't been able to convert me to her version of Islam, and at least you didn't convince your friends and family to become quiverers too. So, it's a good thing too, that you didn't appear as "blessed" as you wanted to. But still, .
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Post by krwordgazer on Jul 1, 2009 12:42:37 GMT -5
Vyckie-- and others who may have experienced what she is describing in terms of a similar event or a reminder that brings back the past-- Here is a link to a helpful page on triggers and how to respond to them. www.ualberta.ca/~uasac/Triggers.htm
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Post by avavirginia on Jul 1, 2009 13:40:44 GMT -5
For those of you familiar with triggers and such: Is that why my whole body shakes when I talk about the abuse? or is that a different phenomenon?
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Post by hopewell on Jul 1, 2009 14:07:20 GMT -5
Ok, I've seen it all. It was bad enough to see Grandpa Duggar's "casket cam," but now people rocking a dead baby and his siblings giving him gifts??? Has anyone considered how horrifying this experience might be for those 8 precious living children??To sit "adoring" their "radiant" mother and her "amazing" husband after having to give gifts to a dead sibling? This family needs some serious counseling--and NOT by a QF/FIC Pastor. By a REAL pschologist or psychiatrist.
I will offer a real prayer of praise that Carri is back home where she wants to be, but please tell me attention is being seriously given to the potential psychological damage done to those kids!
QUESTION UNRELATED TO CARRI: Will any of you who commented that you are "no longer q'ing" be writing your stories? It is very interesting to read about this. At one point in my life, I would have jumped off this cliff if I'd connected with the "right" man. Thank God, that man never found me!!
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Post by rosa on Jul 1, 2009 14:20:04 GMT -5
whole body shakes could easily be a PTSD symptom, Avavirginia. There are a lot of new PTSD treatments out there (not all of them old enough to have good evidence either way) if you go looking for a therapist who specializes in it.
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Post by krwordgazer on Jul 1, 2009 15:29:23 GMT -5
Ok, I've seen it all. It was bad enough to see Grandpa Duggar's "casket cam," but now people rocking a dead baby and his siblings giving him gifts??? Has anyone considered how horrifying this experience might be for those 8 precious living children??To sit "adoring" their "radiant" mother and her "amazing" husband after having to give gifts to a dead sibling? This family needs some serious counseling--and NOT by a QF/FIC Pastor. By a REAL pschologist or psychiatrist. I will offer a real prayer of praise that Carri is back home where she wants to be, but please tell me attention is being seriously given to the potential psychological damage done to those kids! You know, on this one I'm not so sure. I have read about counseling given to parents of stillborns: that it's therapeutic to hold the baby, name the baby, have a funeral-- not to hush the death away. I think sometimes our culture sanitizes itself away from the realities of death too much. As for giving gifts to the baby-- to me it all depends whether the living children were doing this voluntarily or under compulsion. If it was their own idea, then it may very well be therapeutic for them, too.
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Post by pandapaws on Jul 1, 2009 17:12:43 GMT -5
Where is Carri's blog? I get an error that it has been removed. Link please?
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Post by avavirginia on Jul 1, 2009 17:33:22 GMT -5
Hopewell, we lost a newborn too (under different circumstances), and I think what they did was very healthy. It is important for all the family members, young siblings included, to acknowledge and grieve the loss. Heart-wrenchingly difficult and painful, yes, but better than stuffing it The teaching they will receive about god's will, etc. makes me sad but they are getting it all the time anyway.
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calulu
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by calulu on Jul 1, 2009 18:16:26 GMT -5
pandapaws, it's down again as well is her Birthing For The Lord forum. Guess she didn't like the tone of the responses. Very odd, she seems to want to live her life for an audience but gets upset when not everyone applauds.
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