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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jun 22, 2009 15:28:22 GMT -5
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Post by rosa on Jun 22, 2009 15:37:59 GMT -5
Oh, poor woman. And her poor family.
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Post by rosa on Jun 22, 2009 15:42:03 GMT -5
But the urge to prosecute in that blog post you linked to (not yours, the link in the post) is a problem, I think. Women need to have medical control over their bodies. What needs to change is this propaganda that "heroic" home birth with high-risk pregnancies is God's Will.
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Post by castor on Jun 22, 2009 15:58:12 GMT -5
Oh this is so very very sad.
Yes, poor woman, so "stuck" in her beliefs her child didn't get a chance to live and she herself might die. I'm so sorry for her. And for her family.
Every time I read about unassisted home birth (not just home birth, most Dutch babies are born at home.) I wonder how often my Muslim friend reads about it. And if she will ever choose to have an unassisted home birth too. She believes that women aren't allowed to see the part of other women's bodies that is between the knee and the navel. She made an exception when it came to the midwife with the birth of her first two (and so far only) children. But will she stop making that exception in the future? I hope she won't. I hope she will choose what she, SHE, feels is best for herself and for her future baby. Instead of obeying blindly to what she believes is Allah's will. Thinking (feeling?) that Allah's will is always best.
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Post by philosophia on Jun 22, 2009 16:00:13 GMT -5
What needs to change is this propaganda that "heroic" home birth with high-risk pregnancies is God's Will. Oh, how sad. Yes it is frightening and tragic. I was foolish enough to have read and taken seriously "Childbirth Without Fear". Vyckie, remember that you are not responsible for her choices, and don't let your own family suffer in your grief. You are in the light. Live there.
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Post by passionfruit on Jun 22, 2009 16:26:41 GMT -5
Now I really see the problem of valuing a woman based on her fertility. It can be very dangerous.
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Post by jadehawk on Jun 22, 2009 16:39:27 GMT -5
bloody hell, this is truly a tragic consequence. I do hope she pulls through without too many permanent consequences from the infection. for all her children to now also lose her mother would be the worst thing.
on another note though, I'm extremely conflicted as to what to do. Obviously, the midwife needs to be put behind bars. But what about the couple themselves? On the one hand, I'm all for persecuting parents whose willful actions result in the death of their children. on the other, I don't think a doctor or anyone else should have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body. That leads me to wanting to look into the husband and his suspicious behavior... but let's face it, he probably didn't actively push her to do this in such a way that a court could consider it abuse (plus, she'd have to cooperate in such an investigation, which is also not likely)
it's a tough one. and a pretty good example why patriarchy needs to be fought at all costs: because this cannot be satisfactorily dealt with on an individual basis; it's a systemic problem
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Post by arietty on Jun 22, 2009 18:45:20 GMT -5
Vyckie I relate to everything you said.. I think it was only recently that I suddenly realized I no longer thought I would be invincible in childbirth and that God would automatically protect me. That belief just stuck with me whenever I considered possibly having another baby. There is a very militant UC homebirther where I live who refers to any birth involving a medical person examining you vaginally as "rape". She has a lot a followers. Tragically this year she had her baby die after laboring for 5 days at home by herself. Not a christian or QF, these fervent beliefs whether in God or in the power of a woman's body and "convictions" (I'm starting to hate that word) can lead all kinds of people to make dangerous choices. I have a friend who has 11 children and she has had some terrible problems with blood clots, had to be on medication etc.. and there was a very real risk she could die during some of her pregnancies. Her legs were swollen and covered in huge gnarled veins that stuck out. I had a lot of guilt and fear over this because I was the one who gave her The Way Home to read, back when she just had 3 kids. Even when I was still QF I used to think that if she died I would be responsible on some level. It's just so incredibly sad. Sad that we can believe God will take care of us but not allow him to take care of us through the advancements of medical science. Sad that we can value our "conviction" above everything and be terrified to re-examine it. Remember that blog commenter who claimed if we ever veered from a conviction we had never really been convicted? Such pride in our own understandings.
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Post by princessjo1988 on Jun 22, 2009 20:14:05 GMT -5
I have been following Carri for quite a while as well Vyckie, and I was actually going to ask you your opinion of the whole sorry mess. I agree that the midwife/midwives need to be investigated. I understand that what happened was rare and unpredicatable. But I also think that medical attention was needed earlier on in the pregnancy, particularly when she had high blood pressure, and was so far overdue. The attacks on FJ are what get me: I do realise that we snark, but that is the point of that blog....I commented on Carri's blog where a lot of the slanging took place (by a woman named Deborah) ------------------------------------ Cupertino, I've been reading FJ for a LONG time honey and you are obsessed with this family. Your gift was just a way to get your foot in the door. Did you tell Carri and Mark in your email about how nasty you've been to them over there? Since you're being all open and honest and junk... BTW I was hoping you all would scatter from THIS BLOG. I would never hope to foist you out of your dirty musky little hole over there at FJ. You're like pigs in mud. --Deborah ---------------------------------------------------- MY REPLY: June 22, 2009 1:12 AM Princess Jo said... Dear Deborah. Firstly, I will freely admit that I read FJ, and that I found Carri's blog in that way. But I have never commented on it (Carri's blog) because I believe she has the right to her opinion: and belief system: just as I have the right to mine. Secondly, I grew up in a fundamentalist christian family: so I can understand where you all are coming from. I was homeschooled using similar material (Rod & Staff) that Carri uses. I am no longer part of the Christian faith due to my own choice: a choice that took me many years to come to: but a choice I remain happy with: so please don't try re-converting me, nor leading me back to your particular brand of the "truth". Deborah, people like you are the reason I left the christian faith. I agree that FJ does get controversial, and can be offensive at times. But your comments are just as bad: and just as immature. As a Christian (which I am only assuming you are) aren't you to love others as your Christ loves you: which is with a forgiving generous heart? Judging other sinners isn't up to you, it is up to GOD (well at least when I last read the bible which was admittedly a while ago: but I don't think it has changed too much!). I mourned for Carri and her baby when I heard the news. Whilst I am not anti-home births in any way (I would choose one for myself), it worries me that from the surface at least, that she did not attempt to get more medical care (eg going to see a GP), particularly after the baby became so overdue. I recognise and appreciate that what happened was unpredictable and rare, but one will never know what difference earlier medical attention would have made. I do hope she recovers quickly with as few setbacks as possible. The loss of a child is something you can never forget nor get over, as I well know from my own life. I think a great deal of the commenters here (and elsewhere) are more worried about the us vs. them debate, rather than recognising that this is simply a tragedy: a child's life lost. Let us get over the differences and mourn the loss of this precious life. Jo June 22, 2009 1:57 AM -------------------------------------------------------- Anonymous said... Princess Jo, like you said, your falling away from the faith was your "own choice". Don't blame it on me. And if you insist on categorizing me based on the two or three comments I've made here, so be it. You can yell at your pretend version of me all you want. My problem isn't with Free Jinger as a blog. I don't care what you all do over there, but when FJ's poisonous fingers venture out in cyberspace to poke, prod, scratch at a mourning, heartbroken family that is TOO much. Maybe I could put my "judgment" into more Biblical terms for you: how do you like, "brood of vipers", or "hypocrites"? --Deborah ------------------------- But anyway, for so called Christians, I think they are not following their bibles well enough ..... You know, the love, forgiveness, generousity and love parts. It doesn't shock me (Like I said in my comments, why do you think I left the church??) but yet it saddens me: I would still like to think there are some good, realistic Christians out there. Seems not .... I just find the whole thing a terrible waste. And now sadly Carri has to live with the death of her child: which to me is punishment enough. As for the midwife/midwives? Well, yes, as I have said, they need to be investigated. Jo
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chloe
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Post by chloe on Jun 22, 2009 20:18:18 GMT -5
Your post is, if horrifying, also timely. This month TLC (and Discovery Health) have been broadcasting an hour-long program titled "Twins by Surprise." I caught it last night when I couldn't sleep (because I stupidly forgot to take an allergy pill), and it profiles four women who give birth to twins without expecting them. The fourth story is about a woman with several children who chooses an unassisted home birth, no sonogram, and monitors her own pre-natal care, including testing her urine and blood pressure. They don't identify her as QF, but she's pregnant again in the update.
Her twins a both feet-first breach, and they are both born healthy. The program warns how dangerous this is, but the mother confidently asserts that God meant for her to be able to do this successfully and how miraculous the births are.
I was disturbed, even though I, myself, have a fear of doctors and hospitals. The mother claims that her original hospital births were horrifying. I can't help but think that this movement isn't just about religion. The rate of c-sections in the United States is, frankly, ridiculous, as are the limited options some women have for childbirth, from restricted positions to pressure to induce.
If only more birthing centers existed and more licensed midwives (my county has none), maybe this sort of tragedy would happen less often.
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Post by buzzard on Jun 22, 2009 21:12:37 GMT -5
New here - came over from the FJ blog. I am one of the snarkers... and proudly so. I had also seen all of the TLC shows on freebirthing, unassisted pregnancies, "I didnt know I was pregnant" etc and thought that it just encouraged this bad decision making. I kind of hoped that they would do a special on "when things dont go as planned." But I guess thats not good TV. Carri herself mentioned that she watched these shows and was encouraged... Thank you for this page. I'm glad that someone out here in cyberworld that understands the mindset is speaking out on this terrible practice. We all watched in horror for nearly a month as this car drove closer and closer to the brick wall. While I hope that people will learn from this poor baby's death I doubt it... the wrath that has been directed at FJ posters is astounding - as mentioned above. Truly "living the word" - right?
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Post by tapati on Jun 22, 2009 21:20:12 GMT -5
I had two home births with an experienced midwife and I had check ups with a doc prior to the birth.
But this sickens me as well. Anyone who plans a home birth should be well aware of all the symptoms that indicate one needs a medical intervention or at least when one needs to get checked out. High blood pressure is a major indicator that a doctor needs to monitor things.
I am all for licensed midwives answerable to the law. I don't believe in these high risk unassisted deliveries. And the part that makes me sick is the bit you've written about previously, how women who risk their lives and die in childbirth are to be compared to the Christian martyrs.
Tell that to their grief-stricken children.
It is such a difficult thing to maintain maximum freedoms when some people choose to handle that freedom so poorly.
Sad, so sad.
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Post by philosophia on Jun 22, 2009 22:30:36 GMT -5
I gave birth to three of my children in hospitals and six at home. The home births that I had with a competent midwife were wonderful experiences. (I would still recommend her) BUT, I am a healthy person and had absolutely no risk factors, and saw an ob in addition to the midwife for the last four babies. Not to mention I live 7 minutes from the hospital. The biggest risk I ran was that my midwife lived almost two hours away and my labors run... two-three hours! But we were rational enough that the backup plan was if she was not here by X time, we would go to the hospital. She drove fast.
Well monitored home birth isn't the problem. The problem is people believing that God owes them a miracle. Because that is what they are asking for when they knowingly take serious risks and say that God will take care of them!
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calulu
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Post by calulu on Jun 22, 2009 22:37:44 GMT -5
I'm the one that wrote the blog posting at WJDGI this morning that's linked here and seems to have the quivering masses granny panties in a huge twist. I was harshly venting and ranting in my frustration over the situation. Like Buzzard said, we all at FJ saw this happening, tried to communicate our concern to Carri and now are being flame broiled by her supporters for daring to say that having no medical care during a high risk pregnancy is beyond foolish. It still sickens me to hear people spouting that it was God's will. Mouthing platitudes to avoid taking any responsibility for personal actions.
But I think it's useless to actually respond to any of them in any manner because they're clearly operating in either denial or deception. If you're deceived you don't know it, as my old Possum Creek pastor used to say. We're not going to change their minds, they stand no chance of changing ours.
I think Carri will be punished enough by guilt, because deep down she has to know she let down her child. I cannot begin to understand how heavy a burden that type of guilt would be to live with day to day. The midwife should face some type of consequences. The husband just makes me see red.
I am so so so thankful I'm now three years out on my fundamentalist detox
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jun 22, 2009 23:01:11 GMT -5
Here's an actual quote from Carri ~ posted to her blog a couple weeks or so ago (the posts have since been removed): "God never meant for man (Pregnant Women) to surrender himself (herself) to the total control of man (dr./technology, etc.) God considers that idolatry. We are to surrender ourselves to God." It just depresses me to think about this situation because I remember being in the exact same mindset myself ~ I was willing to take huge risks (at the time, I was convinced that home VBAC was not risky at all) and suffer incredible discomfort ~ thinking that in this way, I was "surrendering to God." ( 2spb.blogspot.com/2009/04/did-i-really-trust-him.html) Even after I had a partial uterine rupture with Wesley, I was not convinced that I could actually die if I were to get pregnant again. Here's a little exchange I had with my uncle Ron which really illustrates how I had totally convinced myself that I really wasn't taking chances ~ something I had to believe because as a very strict QFer, I had no way out on the birth control issue: RON: You have been extraordinarily brave in the face of real threats to your health and that of your newborns. How great was your fear of dying that you would risk it? ME: I am actually rather fearless ~ much to the consternation of those who love me. My mother has pleaded with me more than once not to get pregnant again ~ and poor Warren ~ he is so much more afraid for me than I am. Anyone who has already been to Hell and has found some good there is unlikely to be terrified of unknown or difficult things. And besides ~ mine is a calculated risk. I know my health could be so much improved if only I didn't subject myself to continual hardship ~ but I don't believe that I'm risking my life. During my last delivery, when my uterus split open and I might have died (but didn't ~ I think that counts as something more than just good luck) ~ the surgeon, who has liability concerns and is financially motivated not to take any risk with my life, spent almost two hours carefully stitching me back together all neat and tidy. Why didn't he just give me a hysterectomy? He could have done it in ten minutes and made some extra profit. He's been my doctor for nearly two decades and he knows how I believe about birth control ~ so he knew full well that if he left me my uterus there's every possibility that I might put it to use again. I say, future pregnancies couldn't be all that risky ~ or the doctor, a man in the position to know, would not have taken the risk. To me, this is not the same as blindly putting my trust in doctors and medicine ~ all factors considered, I do have confidence in the surgeon's assessment of the risk to my life. Sure, I could die ~ but we all could whether we insulate ourselves from the possibility or not. Total craziness, huh? The reason that I was so confident is that, IN MY MIND, I had no choice ~ I couldn't use birth control, I was only 40 ~ plenty more years of fertility ahead of me ~ so I had to twist my thinking around to convince myself that I'd be okay. Ack. I already said that I feel sick over this, right?
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Post by krwordgazer on Jun 23, 2009 0:23:22 GMT -5
I feel so bad for poor Carri, and the baby. The fundamentalism I was involved in never went this far-- we were encouraged to believe God for healing, but not discouraged from going to doctors or hospitals. Also, birth control was never an issue. Having lots of kids was seen as a very good thing, but choosing not to have so many was acceptable if there were health reasons.
Similarly, we were required to go on long fasts-- up to three days sometimes-- but if someone was diabetic, or pregnant, or nursing, they were exempted.
It was far from balanced-- but it stopped short of endangering our lives.
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Post by kisekileia on Jun 23, 2009 1:55:59 GMT -5
That is so sad. The whole home-birthing, anti-vaccination, anti-modern medicine movement (it's not even close to limited to fundamentalist Christians) disgusts me. The women involved in it are so naive. They just have no concept of how dangerous childbirth and childhood diseases were before modern medicine, so they blithely dismiss things as artificial and unnecessary that have actually been saving lives for so long that modern mothers don't remember before they were there. I wonder how many mothers and children will have to die before Generations X and Y realize that the innovations they reject saved their own mothers' lives.
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Post by Vyckie D. Garrison on Jun 23, 2009 7:15:04 GMT -5
Calulu ~ thanks for the info. I sent you a personal message ~ just wanted to make sure you notice.
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calulu
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Post by calulu on Jun 23, 2009 7:24:02 GMT -5
Vyckie I'm shocked that your doctor didn't give you a total hysterectomy at that point! After my ninth miscarriage during my time in Quiver-ville I kept having to have D&C's to control my bleeding and my doctor told me right before the last time he did the procedure that if I had one more bout of uncontrolled bleeding he was going to do a total hysterectomy. Which is actually what ended up happening 6 weeks later but by that time I was all for it.
All the ladies I knew at our Fellowship clucked and tutted and acted like I'd lost faith in God by scheduling the hysterectomy, even told me I should not have that life-saving surgery but should wait to be healed. My red blood cell counts kept dropping lower and lower each month. Turned out to be the best thing I've ever done to improve my health, I should have done it years before.
The mindset doesn't allow for things like putting your health above what the pack perceives as 'God's Will'
There were some postings originally about Carri that indicated that she'd had to have surgery to control the bleeding. I'm wondering if it was a hysterectomy, which is probably the best way to control uncontrolled uterine bleeding.
If it was then Carri is going to go through some changes in her mind to accept it. It won't be easy. Which leads me to speculate how she's going to deal with the entire idea of invasive medical care in the first place over her ordeal.
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calulu
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Post by calulu on Jun 23, 2009 8:27:13 GMT -5
Yes, Vyckie, I just sent you a reply.
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Post by jemand on Jun 23, 2009 9:13:48 GMT -5
Your post is, if horrifying, also timely. This month TLC (and Discovery Health) have been broadcasting an hour-long program titled "Twins by Surprise." I caught it last night when I couldn't sleep (because I stupidly forgot to take an allergy pill), and it profiles four women who give birth to twins without expecting them. The fourth story is about a woman with several children who chooses an unassisted home birth, no sonogram, and monitors her own pre-natal care, including testing her urine and blood pressure. They don't identify her as QF, but she's pregnant again in the update. Her twins a both feet-first breach, and they are both born healthy. The program warns how dangerous this is, but the mother confidently asserts that God meant for her to be able to do this successfully and how miraculous the births are. I was disturbed, even though I, myself, have a fear of doctors and hospitals. The mother claims that her original hospital births were horrifying. I can't help but think that this movement isn't just about religion. The rate of c-sections in the United States is, frankly, ridiculous, as are the limited options some women have for childbirth, from restricted positions to pressure to induce. If only more birthing centers existed and more licensed midwives (my county has none), maybe this sort of tragedy would happen less often. SOOO TRUE! The rush to prosecute, or to "stop this from happening" is in large part what began to create this movement. Instead of giving women choice, the same "informed consent" ANYONE else has in a hospital, there have been cases where the doctor goes to the court, obtains "custody" of the half born child, and starts doing whatever the hell he wants with the mother's body. That is not right! Restrict late term abortion if you want, but don't make going to the hospital equal to risking your autonomy and ability to consent to your own medical care! And as for unassisted homebirth, my mother knows a lot about the history of the home birth "movement" in the US and how it bothered the established health providers, they felt they were losing money and influence and cracked down on midwives such that in some locations it is ILLEGAL to give birth attended! Yes. Have your baby in the hospital, or alone with no one to help you, or you are breaking the law. How wrongheaded! As someone upthread mentioned, Csections are WAY too often used, sometimes are forced, other times the doctor just puts so much pressure the woman feels she can't say no... and in pretty much all cases the woman is not informed about her options, and about the fact that a C-section is actually pretty significant abdominal surgery and that the muscles may take years to heal, perhaps never getting back to their previous state. Not really something that you want to do "as a matter of course" yet that's what IS done, fairly often. No wonder women wish to go elsewhere! Far from prosecuting this couple, laws should be passed affirming informed consent for childbirth in the hospital, cracking down on doctors and hospitals who ignore the rights of women. THEN I wouldn't be surprised if more and more women came back to the hospital. And often the lack of prenatal care is more due to low finances, and the horrible health care system that lets so many people "slip through the cracks"-- it is only much later that it is "rationalized" as something religious. It's easier to explain to someone you have a "religious conviction" than "we're dirt poor." The second is embarrassing.
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sofia
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Post by sofia on Jun 23, 2009 9:25:10 GMT -5
I'm new here. Carri will no doubt take this hard and she may seem to bounce back more quickly than one usually might especially at her husband's urging. Since she seems to worship him she won't want to displease him by being too sad if he says she should stop. That could be dangerous mentally if she refuses herself to properly grieve and he rushes her through the process and, or, if she suffers ppd. But the children will take this very hard, imo. I feel very sorry for them right now. I was shocked and upset to read that their father took time to post on her web site at a time when, I would assume, he'd want to spend all his time comforting his children (when not in the hospital with his wife) rather than post on a blog - his wife's blog. Just my thinking...but there are a lot of kids who need comforting over there. It must have taken precious amount of time to read and delete posts...time he should have spent comforting their children. Ah, what some do for appearances. What a loss and what a shame.
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wendy
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Post by wendy on Jun 23, 2009 9:32:40 GMT -5
A few generations ago, girls grew up watching mothers in their community die in childbirth and children in their community die of measles and whooping cough. I can't imagine a woman from a hundred years ago refusing medical supervision which would dramatically reduce the risk of complications or death during childbirth. (Or medicine that would save their babies from killer diseases.)
Unfortunately, I also think the part of our brain "in charge" of childbirth is pretty primitive, and the instinct to be safe in our nest is very strong.
And aren't these are the same people who considered Dr. Tiller a murderer?
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Post by AustinAvery on Jun 23, 2009 10:20:45 GMT -5
It just depresses me to think about this situation because I remember being in the exact same mindset myself ~ I was willing to take huge risks (at the time, I was convinced that home VBAC was not risky at all) and suffer incredible discomfort ~ thinking that in this way, I was "surrendering to God." ( 2spb.blogspot.com/2009/04/did-i-really-trust-him.html) Vyckie, without intended to ask a dumb question here (meaning, I realize I may be doing so), how is it that such thinking gets compartmentalized. To illustrate, the thinking seems to be that medical science is unnecessary in child birth, and that the details should be left to God. Yet that logic could also be used to argue, for example, that modern science is unnecessary in the kitchen. If I want to cook ground beef to only 120 degrees because it tastes better, I'll leave the worrying about salmonella to God. I suspect women even in the QF movement don't take those chances. That may be a weak example, but the point here is that scientific achievement permeates practically everything in our lives--the lives of QF people too. So why or how do they decide to throw out scientific knowledge selectively? (BTW, my last two children were born at home, but our midwife was "all about" the science. Just one example, as part of the intensive 8-week training course she taught, we were assigned to read abstracts from prominent medical journals on numerous topics related to birth.)
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Post by AustinAvery on Jun 23, 2009 10:30:23 GMT -5
All the ladies I knew at our Fellowship clucked and tutted and acted like I'd lost faith in God by scheduling the hysterectomy, even told me I should not have that life-saving surgery but should wait to be healed. My red blood cell counts kept dropping lower and lower each month. Turned out to be the best thing I've ever done to improve my health, I should have done it years before. The mindset doesn't allow for things like putting your health above what the pack perceives as 'God's Will' Calulu, That strikes me as just sad. But aside from sad, I'm perplexed, perhaps, again, by compartmentalized thinking. Why aren't these woman embarrassed, as "Christians," for being so judgmental? I'm quite ignorant on religion, but I remember hearing "judge not least ye be judged" most of my life and thinking Jesus said it. Perhaps it is just "group think." And I suppose Christian group think is no better or worse than other group think, it just seems to be more noticeably contrary to a specific written text.
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