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Post by arietty on Oct 24, 2009 0:42:23 GMT -5
But what if a particular chuch is not "producing patriarchs," but is filled with people (and leadership) who are moving gradually out of the patriarchal traditions of their particular denomination? If a word I can speak in the right place, at the right time, is helping with that change, I'm not going to abandon these kind, loving, sincere people, who are as much help to me in other areas as I am trying to be to them in this one. They're people, not nameless representatives of a particular ideology. We're all people, not nameless representatives of a particular ideology, even Quiverful folks and other patriarchy supporters. As for your what if, you don't really offer enough information to answer the question you pose. So in the absence of data to contradict it, I agree with atheist in the BB's point that "participation in a church that endorses "male headship" (anti-gay, anti-choice, etc.) is helping to keep patriarchy alive". It's too familiar ground I'm afraid.. I refused to participate in a lot of things that kept the liberal and/or pagan agenda alive when I was a fundamentalist. I don't really want to go that way again in reaction to patriarchy. The church I loosely associate myself with is a mixed bag, plenty of things I could walk out over and plenty I could get on board with. In my fundy days I would have walked out over their liberal ways.. now that I'm a liberal (in the christian sense) myself I don't wish to walk out over their fundy ways. I speak my mind. I try and be gracious in response to the fundys because, well, it's pretty arrogant not to be when I've been there myself. Not easy though, I'm a loud mouth. I am careful where my money goes and choose to only give to collections that go to charitable endeavors. I try and remember that everyone is on their own path and to find connections with people even if their ideology is anathema to me. This is good for me and is its own kind of healing for the fundamentalist mind set I once embraced.
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Post by arietty on Oct 22, 2009 18:57:00 GMT -5
Pardon me, I just need a moment to RAGE AGAINST THE STUPID. Rawwwrrrr! ... Okay, that's done. Anyone else taken by the irony of the Johnsons voting for McCain because they support Palin, a woman doing it all wrong by their self-professed standards? Yes the mind boggles!! I will confess that when I first started reading the "Meet the Johnsons" section I felt.. an appeal.. pulling me in.. some sentimentality for a past vision washed over me. Maybe it was the "immaculate" "modern furniture and appliances" and polite children rising early to do their school work. Then I slapped myself and asked "if they lived in a mobile home out in the country would you find this so appealing?" And then all the bible stuff started and I was well and truly puking over it. What stood out for me was just how different they view women from men, how much weaker and needing protection from the world they see women. Oh women can't do things outside the home, we must protect them from the world blah blah.. it's just so weird to me now. Like a science fiction story about two different races living on the same planet.
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Post by arietty on Oct 22, 2009 17:24:31 GMT -5
btw Tapati I always loved Heart when I was a teenager
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Post by arietty on Oct 22, 2009 16:56:29 GMT -5
"A perfect family, a Godly life... But who pays the price?" I think that is excellent. I would immediately click on such a thing as I think a lot of people interested in cults, religion, women/family issues would. It sums it up without being overly sensationalist. I guess I'm not keen on "why women can't stop reading the stories at NLQ" because.. I'm more than a story to feed people's voyeurism. I have posted some very personal things in the forums and it wasn't for anyone's entertainment. However that's just my little tetchy reaction. No point being too fussy about it all. KM the word accepted and reverenced by QF women is patriarchy. We don't need to rewrite this word. It features in all the literature. I would hope that this forum and blog remains very readable to people within the QF culture. As to the comments on other religions.. well the Krishna movement as I understand it is basically a white first world religion. Any future contributions from people coming out of other religions will be their personal story not someone from the outside pointing fingers. I doubt Vyckie will be analyzing Islam in a series of posts but I would not be surprised to have a contributor who left a fundamentalist patriarchal life in Islam posting a series one day.
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Post by arietty on Oct 20, 2009 19:09:42 GMT -5
That is what I had in mind when I wrote that the fundamentalist mindset is an insidious form of mental illness. My apologies if I hit a hot button for anyone here. I know how raw the hurt can be at times ~ and words can wound even when not intended that way. I have no problem seeing it that way because I brainwashed myself into deep irrationality, believing that believing could actually alter reality.
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Post by arietty on Sept 19, 2009 0:53:53 GMT -5
[quote author=orual Anyway, I have a funny "It's all about the money" story. My dad use to give money PTL & TBN until he got a brochure where one of the pictures was one of the children (I don't remember which child) riding a pony. My dad looked at that picture and thought to himself, "My kids don't have a pony" and never gave money to PTL or TBN again (LOL).
[/quote]
That is priceless. And so to the point!
Indeed rather than buying books about family values spend the money on pizza or going to the movies with your kids.
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Post by arietty on Sept 17, 2009 22:34:20 GMT -5
Yep there is nothing wrong with making money but when you need to keep generating fear to make that money AND the fear you are generating has no basis in reality you are now bilking people. Even if you actually believe the story you are peddling.
I think the manufactured culture war is much more of a bilk when money is involved than horror images used in pro-life or World Vision or any other advertisement because the culture war is a fiction created by folks whose faith thrives on persecution. Though right wing christians may want to sell you on the idea that you are being attacked and threatened by people not like you in fact they are the only ones doing the attacking. You don't find the gay rights movement campaigning to limit the rights of christians do you? All the attacking and campaigning and attempts to curtain people's culture comes FROM the christians and is aimed at those outside of their camp. Their popular targets of gays, newagers, atheists don't care at all how christians live, what they read, what movies they watch, what they teach their children.. they know it has nothing to do with them. It's the christians that have been convinced, sold on the idea that they are under grave threat and they must fight to reclaim everybody else's culture and make it just like their own.
And the war is just so damn exciting to many people. After all it elevates the mundane to spiritual warfare. The QF life can be very poor and very tedious (especially when you are frugally making everything). You have less options than all those non-QF people, you never get out of the stuck-at-home with toddlers phase, your life doesn't progress on to new phases, extra money once you're older, freedom to travel or go back to school.. really it can be all the same for decades. If you know that this is because you are on the FRONTLINES of a might battle, GOD'S BATTLE and that every snotty nose you wipe and bottle of peaches you can has eternal consequences well.. that's mighty appealing. Reading about it in endless magazine subscriptions and books is appealing too. And of course all that reading just makes the world appear more and more threatening. Better buy some more books about biblical family values to protect yourself!
I know some of these writers are sincere but they are also deluded.
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Post by arietty on Sept 16, 2009 3:55:09 GMT -5
I haven't read the replies and I'm up to my eyeballs in cooking curry but I just have to say THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS YOU HAVE WRITTEN. So so true.. and today I was just thinking about the connection between the obsession with the Culture war (having just interacted with fundie relatives) and the readiness of the religious right to pursue and actually LOVE real wars.I don't think there's any need to debate the rightness or the wrongness of the war in Iraq in this thread and that is not my intention. It's the seemingly adoring LOVE of the war in Iraq that I see in the religious right with all their soldier hero worship and proclamations of how inspired they are with this fight for freedom that bothers me. Surely even the most just war should have people on their knees in grief for all the death and pain? Instead it's one big WE ARE RIGHT and RIGHTEOUS pep rally. I think there's a connection there. You need a really evil enemy (Satan, communists, Islam, THE WORLD..) to really hit that high of being right, right in your beliefs and right with God. And it is a high. It's rather exciting to be on the front lines of the culture war.. and I can see how some people would be loath to give that up in favour of the great grey ambiguities I now happily live with. And you are correct Vyckie, the world is a wonderful and often benevolent place! Some of my fondest memories of coming out of this mindset are of embracing the world
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Post by arietty on Sept 14, 2009 23:32:36 GMT -5
I have only seen this in testimonies in magazines NEVER in real life.
A QF friend married to an immature prick confided to me once, "the more you are a doormat the more they step on you." She is still in a believer in patriarchy but has given it up as far as her own husband goes.
Why do we think it is appropriate to set boundaries with children, friends, people we work with, interfering family members.. but totally unacceptable to set boundaries with a husband?
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Post by arietty on Sept 13, 2009 2:56:29 GMT -5
I got tired out and discouraged just remembering this and writing about it ~ I seriously can't believe that we lived with it day in and day out for years and years. We always sat at the table together for every meal ~ three times a day we had to suffer through that dreaded ordeal. I hated it so much that now the only time we all sit at the table for a meal is when we have company and the weather is not nice enough to eat outside ~ and even then, we don't always sit down together. Poor traumatized me. Ha! We have not eaten at a table together in YEARS. My children are completely traumatized at the idea of sitting at a table and eating together thanks to their father. They especially remember the looooooong sermonizing prayers he would give if there was a visitor, all the time making them hold hands. The lectures, the corrections, the fury at a kid not liking something or god forbid spilling something. Once we were in MacDonalds.. we had to all hold hands for grace (total embarrassment) and of course he prayed LONG and LOUD over the hamburgers. As soon as the kids could start eating one of them knocked over his whole drink and his father grabbed him by the throat, lifted him up and in complete fury told him he was going to kill him.. the kid was about 6. Just multiply this scene by 10,000 and that's why no one wants to eat around a table. We eat in front of the computers, in front of the TV (!!!!), in bed.. I literally deliver the dinner to rooms all over the house. The Family Table, I had to hear a little sermon about that the other day in church.. I doubt we'll ever get over it. My second husband had no abuse but he did have endless religious grilling and praying and expectations around The Family Table (thank you Dr. Dobson) and he hates eating at the table too. Just had to have that little spew.
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Post by arietty on Aug 20, 2009 7:39:51 GMT -5
I personally don't doubt the effectiveness of meditation techniques. It has been demonstrated scientifically that there are changes in the brains of those who regularly engage in meditation and compared Buddhist monks to Franciscan nuns. Scientists would say this has no spiritual significance but I guess we'll all find out when we die. I just don't think there needs to be all of this controlling cultural baggage attached to it. well, there are also demonstrated changes to the brains of musicians, or people who lose sight or hearing, or dancers, etc. Pretty much the brain is VERY plastic and will mold to what you do most with it, and if you spend lots of time working on biofeedback control, than yeah, you'll be able to control your breath and heart rate and brainwaves to a greater extent than other people, and the structure of your brain will be different than it otherwise would be. Spiritual significance? Sincerely doubt it, but I do plan to make use of my brain's plasticity to do get what I want out of the life I have here and now. Maybe someday that'll include learning biofeedback and meditative practices. I agree there jemand. I'm not inclined to call good stuff that happens to our emotions or brains spiritual. Not really sure what that word even means any more other than.. "mysterious and not explainable in the natural world". To which I would add, "yet".
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Post by arietty on Aug 19, 2009 2:22:36 GMT -5
Erika I am looking fwd to the next installment.. it's a fascinating read.
Isn't it incredible how the desire to know and love God has been equated with giving stuff up, more and more and more stuff. And yet we would distance ourselves from the Stylites and other ascetics of old because that is clearly WORKS and we are saved by grace.
The giving up of stuff doesn't really convey to children the love of God does it. I wonder if either you or your siblings ever felt that your parents, in their new found zeal, were drawing you closer to God's love.
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Post by arietty on Aug 19, 2009 1:55:48 GMT -5
Some days I could do with a little smothering, sigh..
But ya know it's very freeing and rather exciting to realize that GOD (if you choose to believe in that concept) is by definition big enough to be the parent, the warrior, the pure child. It is a good journey because I'm no longer looking for the right answer.
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Post by arietty on Aug 18, 2009 0:29:05 GMT -5
Tapati I love how you capture what it is to be an adolescent, you take me back to my own times. Sending you a pm after this post since some stuff I'm not comfortable posting.
I was thinking how aggravating it is that both your family and the temple were ready to do away with your teenage years and label you an adult.. and then I remembered how QF/homeschoolers teach the same thing. They proclaim loudly that adolescence is a myth perpetuated by indulgence and that a 16 year old should be able to run a household (because they older daughters usually are doing so out of necessity!) Really I am sure the hardcore ones will be marrying them off earlier and earlier, especially if they can justify not looking to the state for marriage and just doing it themselves.
As to theology, every time I bother to think about it deeply I find my views have shifted (unbeknown to my conscious mind). I'm kind of vaguely panentheist but truthfully I still want to believe in a parental god. I like changing the gender to female when singing in church or just when praying to the parental god.. this always brings a very different dimension to the parental god experience, LOL. I did not have good parents or good parenting. When I was a small child I continually fantasized about having a mom and/or dad who loved me and wanted to spend time with me and cherished me. So I am not ready to give up this need for a parental god since I never had the human version.
(Interestingly I find parenting my children in a way parents me . I like to do things for my children that take some effort or sacrifice because no one ever did any of those things for me. I feel oddly cared for in being able to do that kind of caring.)
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Post by arietty on Aug 8, 2009 8:32:30 GMT -5
Kisekileia no one ever gave a shit that my kids were scared of their father. I long ago realized that it was only ME that would ever care about this in any real and practical way. The last incident that happened which involved violence we did not discuss with anyone because NO ONE gives a shit, all they care about is "repairing" the relationship and encouraging my children to "forgive" blah blah blah.. one by one they have disowned their father and have nothing to do with him. They don't talk about about it because no one ever wants to believe this is a good thing. I can't even express how angry I am about this, the lack of anyone caring or even inquiring about my kids even when they know the history of this man and even when (in the past) they saw my injuries. This is my huge hotspot at this time.
Next time you hear of a woman who says her partner has been violent ask after the children.. find out if they fear their father.. find out if he has threatened or hurt them.
Tapati I am enjoying your story very much. I have read your whole blog but this is very interesting the way you write it here. It brings up a lot of things for me.. I have not spent much time looking at how/why my childhood with an abusive mother (narcissistic, emotionally unstable..) might have led me into fundamentalism. I know how it led me into an abusive marriage--many many things looked completely normal to me because they were no different than what I grew up with. In the past I have missed the sureties and formulas of my fundamentalist life and it makes me wonder now how much of it was both a longing for escape (because it presents an alluring alternate reality) and a longing for stability.
Thankfully I no longer miss it and I feel I have now a certain exhilaration in flying blind, in not knowing for sure anything in the spiritual realm. Took a while to get there though.
I am looking fwd so much to reading your next installment. It is creepy to me that I am reading this just DYING for you to be able to get back to the temple when of course I know the temple is going to bring you its own grief. But it's very hard to be 16 and be trapped in an single parent family with someone who is unstable, I know that from my own experience. How I longed for another place to be.
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Post by arietty on Aug 6, 2009 9:34:41 GMT -5
He looked just like all our other children. A beautiful boy who sacraficed his life for his Momma's He lived his life to sacrafice and praise the Lord and he has in his short life brought others to Christ and save lost souls leading them to his father in heaven. I am honored to have such a son who gave his life for me.Jo I don't mean to sound cruel given this woman's pain, but am I the only one who thinks this reads like a cult? I think it reads very whacked BUT.. I have read many odd things people say to deal with their grief. I don't think it is a good idea to judge people in the throes of grief trying to find some way to tell the story that comforts themselves.
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Post by arietty on Jul 26, 2009 20:38:19 GMT -5
The extremism progression is so disturbing.
Letting God plan your family --> Home Birth is God's plan and somehow more of a testimony than hospital birth --> Unassisted Home birth is even MORE spiritual, just you and your husband delivering at home..
Of course in this case there was midwife care but the midwifes answered the real concerns of the mom by continuing to steer her away from actual medical care.
I once told a friend of mine who was extremely unhealthy that if she really thought God wanted her to have as many babies as possible she needed to look on this as a job and take care of herself. Eat real food, lose weight, actually attend her ante-natal appointments instead not bothering, stop ignoring serious symptoms and eschewing all tests and medical care. I said to her that if you felt God wanted you to become a missionary in Africa in a situation that involved great physical duress and you had a year to prepare you would get in shape! Get healthy! Prepare yourself! Having a huge family because you think God called you to do so is no different. Really it's possible to have a lot of babies in a first world country and be well cared for. It's incredible that this extremist thinking leads people to into NO care.
And of course the men are no help at all, it's not like they are hiring home help for the moms or making their lives any easier.. with quiverful a man's job is his job, he goes there every day and comes home and it stays the same. A woman's job increases dramatically with each baby. Men do not seem to understand this at all.
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Post by arietty on Jul 21, 2009 0:19:15 GMT -5
Krwordgazer what does it mean that intensity is a sign of codependency? I had not heard that before but it rings a lot of bells. I think of friends of mine who went from one super intense christian experience to the next and would never find any contentment in a mundane church life, and whose romantic relationships ran a parallel course.
Tapati I found your posts very interesting, thanks so much. When I was younger I often felt a real pull towards the "small blue god" as I thought of him, and have tried to analyze what the heck that was all about. Certainly on one level it is the pull of an alternative society, a way to step out of the tedium or pain of one's current life. Whether it's Krishna or the Amish or homesteading with 12 kids.. lol. But I believe that personally there was a pull towards a pure form of devotion. I had that same experience of almost-envy when I knew some very Mary oriented Catholics (the Blue Army and others). Mary/Krishna offered something incredibly pure and beautiful that called forth a spiritual relationship based on devotion.. this is just not found in your basic protestant evangelical church. It's an interesting need or impulse. I only have little wisps of it now and can't imagine disengaging my brain to the point of being able to pursue it, its time has passed.
I used to eat at the ISKCON outreach restaurants. I was a vegetarian and the food was good and payment was by donation. I found many elements of it very attractive but the devotees that would sit and talk with me I did not find attractive. I was a very new christian at the time and one fellow who was always there was deeply sarcastic and almost nasty when I told him this, and he continued to deride me in subsequent visits until I actually stopped coming because of him. He was the son of a Baptist minister and I've often wondered where his life took him. Other devotees seemed to me to be arrogant and always correcting me. This was in contrast to the weekend I spent with the Moonies where every word I uttered was greeted as being incredibly spiritual and insightful and wonderful.. boy that was love bombing and I wasn't fooled by it for a second.
But I guess I was just waiting for the perfect thing to fall for.
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Post by arietty on Jul 14, 2009 9:15:08 GMT -5
"Crack whores" is a pejorative term. Its use adds a belittling, derogatory element to the intention of the sentence which I am sure was not meant by the OP. If you say "prostitute" or "drug addict" you are talking about a person with deep problems and disadvantages. When you say "crack whores" you are talking about social trash.
Though I know nothing of the kind was meant by A in the BB I personally think it's a term that any thinking, caring person should jettison.
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Post by arietty on Jul 10, 2009 10:08:45 GMT -5
That is interesting Erika, and very sad. Think how hard it would be to walk out and start from scratch after living at home with no real job for years and years.. how intimidating for some. My MIL believed firmly that a woman must NEVER express that she likes a man in any way, she must wait for him to come to her. She impressed this on her meekest child who had a man she liked who was just a friend. She waited 8 years, always deferring to her mother telling her that godly women don't pursue men.. finally she rebelled and wrote him a letter asking if he had any romantic feelings for her. He replied: "no". Now personally I think the fellow is probably gay and deeply in a religious closet. The mother makes excuses for this and would be happy for her daughter to STILL be waiting on this man ("he is very busy.." wtf?!) It's completely nuts and my SIL is staring down the barrel of never having kids, she's in her 30's now and never had a relationship. I just recently spent a weekend in May with a few girls for a mutual friend's wedding. One of the girls is 29 and still living at home and works for her parents, getting paid (not sure how much) for child care (she's the oldest of 10) and housework. I asked her if she'd ever thought of moving out and getting another job. She said, "This IS my job. Why would I want to move out? Besides, I'd have to pay rent and commute here if I moved out." There wasn't any thought of getting another job and being on her own. Her parents had finally built a new house and had built a room on just for her.....to make it convenient to have her stay. That is SO sad about your SIL. Is there any way that you could convince her to get a life and get out? Actually she HAS got a life. She has an excellent highly trained career and she owns her own home. But right into her 30's she was still under enormous pressure to make all her decisions meet her mother's approval. I remember her worrying over wanting to buy one kind of house when she knew her mother thought "single women should only by X kind of house". She has separated herself a lot from her mother but I think a relationship will be the final move away, especially if she ended up with someone not approved of. It's just it has taken so long, it's like she's over 15 years behind people's normal separation from their parents. I can imagine these QF daughters who think it's God's will to stay home and take care of siblings and housework for years and years will end up even more out of the loop of life milestones.
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Post by arietty on Jul 10, 2009 9:51:28 GMT -5
I assumed Q.D. meant Quivering Days.. but I did have to think about it.
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Post by arietty on Jul 10, 2009 7:09:29 GMT -5
You know, Bronwyn, I just said almost exactly the same thing in another thread, although with a slightly different thrust. The thing that keeps me from embracing feminism wholeheartedly is the sense that there is groupthink that I'm expected to go along with, that I'm supposed to believe only certain things and say only certain things. I already dealt with that in evangelicalism, and once was enough. I embrace feminism wholeheartedly but that groupthink means I do my embracing by myself, LOL. I know exactly what you mean. Once you've come out of one groupthink swamp you get a whiff of it and run.
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Post by arietty on Jul 10, 2009 6:57:58 GMT -5
When I became a mother and my mother started trying to 'teach' me how to break her spirit, I realized I didn't want to break her. I merely wanted to survive her childhood with her own sense of self intact as an adult. Doing that for a bunch of kids is exhausting. But, its also exhilirating. My MIL actually boasts about how she "broke her children's will". I believe this was in a Dobson book that was popular at one point though I guess it is an older idea than that. When she first saw my then 2 year old having a tantrum she nodded her head and said, "that is his sin nature coming out.." Makes me sick. Her children spent a long time trying to reclaim their wills, one in particular still felt she needed her mother's approval for everything into her 30's. Horrible. Now when my current 2 year old is screaming, "IT'S MIIIIIINE!!!!" and my older kids ask why she is being so horrible I tell them she is developing her understanding of property rights. Prior to this age everything was just THERE, now she suddenly gets that some things belong to individuals and she is an individual..! And it's very exciting and frustrating! This is just as important a lesson as sharing, it's a part of normal development but it would be looked upon as selfishness and sin by many. Something to "train" out of them (like they were dogs, UGH.. and don't get me started on the Pearls.)
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Post by arietty on Jul 10, 2009 6:50:23 GMT -5
OH Vyckie, LOVELY post. All of it so familiar!! It is truly amazing to see them blossom as individuals and to be a parent that respects and actually enjoys that. As I've posted before mine had a similar transition, lots of anger and acting out initially for some.
You said, "Just seeing the difference in my children (not only Andrew ~ they are all doing remarkably well) makes it totally worth the trouble ~ and in fact, I can see now that it is no trouble at all ~ single parenthood is EASY compared to living in the oppressive, crazy-making atmosphere ~ the prison which our home used to be."
SO TRUE. This was another thing that didn't help my status with my former church, my stating boldly and clearly that being a single mom was a thousand times easier than living under the oppressive hell that was my ex. People would ask about finances and I'd say, "it's GREAT! It's much much better being poor because you don't have money rather than poor because one person spends it all on themselves and refuses to provide." And on and on..
My ex used to force the kids to all sit on the couch while he screamed and raged at them, redfaced and absolutely terrifying, trying to get one of them to confess to some transgression. No one was allowed up until someone had confessed and this could go on all afternoon. The transgression was always something we would not even notice now. Yes they learned well to be little mice.
My older ones often reflect on these things with the younger ones.. "we were never allowed to wear nail polish, you don't know how lucky you are.." and many other things. Some very terrible things.
I know I have a great appreciation of the joy and responsibility to nurture my children as individuals. Frankly the more christian people are, as in the more "but not of the world" they are the less likely it is they will want this for their own families. I run into it all the time with christian moms I know, they often express worry and dismay at their kids wearing weird clothes or listening to "dubious" music or any manner of things. The subtext is always there, they would prefer their kids to project a wholesome christian image. Yet every time they choose to roll their eyes or tut their tongue rather than celebrating their children's taste it is a missed opportunity to really connect with that child.
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Post by arietty on Jul 8, 2009 22:04:01 GMT -5
That is interesting Erika, and very sad. Think how hard it would be to walk out and start from scratch after living at home with no real job for years and years.. how intimidating for some.
My MIL believed firmly that a woman must NEVER express that she likes a man in any way, she must wait for him to come to her. She impressed this on her meekest child who had a man she liked who was just a friend. She waited 8 years, always deferring to her mother telling her that godly women don't pursue men.. finally she rebelled and wrote him a letter asking if he had any romantic feelings for her. He replied: "no". Now personally I think the fellow is probably gay and deeply in a religious closet. The mother makes excuses for this and would be happy for her daughter to STILL be waiting on this man ("he is very busy.." wtf?!) It's completely nuts and my SIL is staring down the barrel of never having kids, she's in her 30's now and never had a relationship.
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