|
Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 19:11:44 GMT -5
No it is not common for someone your father's age to express interest. In the FLDS church (mormon sect) yes, but in evangelical QF families, no. They usually match 'em up with a young man of similar age resulting in two homeschooled, isolated sometimes still teenagers getting married.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 19:04:58 GMT -5
Wow Vyckie how interesting that you were launched out of your belief system by a verse in Ecclesiastes. When I finally left my abusive husband I felt that God had delivered me as he had delivered the Hebrews from the Egyptians.. it was a very clear picture of deliverance by God. This did NOT go down well when I told other Christians about it, LOLOL.. you are never supposed to be delivered from your husband.
Anyway I ended up "delivered" from a whole lot of other stuff as well.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 18:50:42 GMT -5
I'm looking fwd to reading the rest of your series KM.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 18:49:43 GMT -5
They are nice, but they are kind of robots. On television, you don't see one of them with an original thought different from what their parents think. But that's okay, because individuality is not from God, right? :S Yeah, I agree. Although I would say... Having taught college level courses and been through college some time ago, I would say that *many* young people tend to agree with their parents about almost everything at least until they're a couple of years into living apart. The Duggars and QF families show us an extreme form of discouragment, but I don't think we're great at fostering independent thought as a society. I also find it troubling that *more* people don't find this objectionable in the show. Anyway... For a televised family like that, I would think the pressure would be even stronger than what many have described here about the pressure to keep up appearances. And I have to wonder how many of them will eventually escape? *I* could not last very long in a family that thinks Fireproof is the greatest achievement in film of the past ten years or so, but then... I never fit in anywhere very easily. Reading the blogs of the older daughters in QF families they all sound exactly the same. It's all craft, cooking and what a blessing everything is. All the favorite films listed are the same, the favorite books.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 18:34:28 GMT -5
OH dear.. that is a very disturbing thing to happen. I remember my ex used to reach out and just grab parts of my body in passing, shove his hand up my skirt, grab my breast.. and I just HATED IT. I eventually learned to dodge and pull back in time though it angered him and he would accuse me of being "cold". It's so disgusting to be treated like that, you have my great sympathy. I can see he was really staking his claim and putting you in your place from day 1.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 4:58:36 GMT -5
I love this post! And I hope you got yourself some Doc Martens. I have about 20 pairs ;D
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 4:57:45 GMT -5
Calulu that is so sad. I knew a lot of people who gave up things valuable to their family of origin or culture because they were now uhh.. free in Jesus to give stuff up. And free in Jesus to enter into conflict with their families because of it. Often rich and meaningful traditions are traded in for a very sterile culture. Fundamentalism fears traditions that trace their origin back to other countries, the older the more scary. I mean.. Catholics might have embraced it and that is very scary stuff. LOL!
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 4:52:04 GMT -5
There is so much I could say about music.. I was in a very abusive relationship and not really allowed any music. Even the praise and worship music I would listen to my husband would trash. I went into that marriage with no actual music so I had nothing to get rid of when I descended into fundamentalism (unlike books). But I missed out on a whole era of a music, an era I was attracted to (the 80's +) but could not access.
I made up for it by going insane buying music once I was out of all that. OMG I bought so much music..
Have your parents returned to any of their old music Erika?
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 2, 2009 4:48:07 GMT -5
Reading this makes me wonder.. why do so few males notice their Pearl-reading wife putting aside her own interests and turning into a doormat? Do they just like it so much they don't say anything? Are they so disconnected from their wife as a friend and equal that they don't notice?
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Nov 1, 2009 0:57:11 GMT -5
There is going to be SO MUCH to read!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 29, 2009 19:24:45 GMT -5
Anyone writing about keeping the "good" and throwing out the bad? Also, can you be Quiverfull, but NOT homeschool? Quiverfull-minded, but work? I love to snark with the best of them, but know many folks get to this thru genuine faith and it can't go "bad" every time!That said, my posts are snarky! Keeping the good.. well all the kids are still here. ;D
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 29, 2009 3:54:53 GMT -5
I have an idea for the Fortune Telling booth. Post some verses from Nostradamus, the minor prophets from the Bible and other sources, and have people match them to articles from their local newspaper, and give prizes for the best (or most far-fetched) match. For example, if one of the verses was Malachi 2:16, which in the online Tanach begins "For the Lord hates putting away", a Dear Heloise column on how to get organized could be a match. That is BRILLIANT.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 28, 2009 0:03:38 GMT -5
Heh, that sounds like a fun idea. And maybe it could be done anonmyously (I'm sorry it's past my bed time and I cannot spell that word right now). Email/pm your entry for the hall of shame to Vyckie and have them posted and vote by number rather than name? Awesome idea! Let's do it! Who's crap is the crappiest? We'll have to come up with a really unique prize for whoever wins this contest. How about ... www.8asians.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/232-kunkimage11.jpgheh heh
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 27, 2009 23:54:30 GMT -5
LOL well people actually read my Crap when it was in magazines so I wouldn't use it again. Too bad I didn't keep a diary.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 27, 2009 18:36:37 GMT -5
I would love to have a thing called "Hall of Shame" for those of us that used to be quiverfull and wrote articles about it. You could volunteer some pieces of work that you wanted to submit, work like what features in Vyckies "Tour de Crap" and then when the "Hall of Shame" is put up, people can vote on the worst piece of crap. What do you guys think? I think that is a very good idea though I won't be contributing any of my crap because I prefer some anonymity (still have a restraining order active on my ex-husband).
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 27, 2009 17:03:18 GMT -5
Vyckie watch some Joy Behar on youtube to prepare yourself..
(I love her! but she's take-no-prisoners!)
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 27, 2009 17:01:12 GMT -5
Tapati I would like to know what you miss about your Hare Krishna days and if you have found what you miss elsewhere.
Vyckie I can definitely write you some small pieces to use as you wish. Snapshots, I can think of a lot for that heading. I will work on something today and send it to you.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 26, 2009 19:43:53 GMT -5
LOLOLOLOL that was very shocking Tapati (I read the whole thing.. "here he is wearing this.. here he is wearing that..")
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 26, 2009 19:35:37 GMT -5
Just read this in the comments section of the Sacramento News & Review article ( www.newsreview.com/sacramento/content?oid=1304920): As to Vickey garrison,yes indeed there some things to say about her testimony. 1.She already ahd a divorce in her twenties? what went wrong? Could there be bitterness about her ideals as to what a family was suppose to be? I think so. 2.Hers IS an example of extreme in ALL areas it seems,yes people sound,godly, biblical principles can be applied to the life in distorted ways,ala; Vickey,sad to say and we do sympothize with her wishing things could have turned out a blessing for her instead.She threw out the babies with the bathwater ie;My experiance with the quiverfull turned out bad therefore it ALL must be wrong for everyone else as well”. 3.Given the fact that she “doesnt regard the bible and she isnt hip to Jesus” proves my previous point,that is she never had the grace of God in her heart & life in the first place,she wasnt a Spirit filled believer and didnt know God.So when a religious but non Spirit filled/saved person tries to obey Gods ways in scripture there lives will always have variable degrees of distortion of Gods truth because it is spiritually discerned,and cannot be with an un converted mind.Think of the Pharisees in the bible,unblieving,religious men who took Gods good laws and made extremes out of them. So,may the Grace of God rule in our hearts by faith seeking His face with all diligence,something which the Johnsons have and thus share the beauty of the Lord in there lives and that which Vickey Garrison never had thus resulting in distorted attempts at what they THINK God wanted for them,miserable ending in personal tragedy,even though she is not outside of Gods redeeming love if she will but repent and believe. Yeah ~ I guess I've heard all of this before, so should be able to just blow it off, huh? ::shakes head:: That's what the strict fundamentalist Hare Krishnas say about those of us who've left it behind. We must not have been sincere. We must not have truly understood the philosophy. We must have been unable to truly follow it because of our attachment to mundane sense gratification. We are in maya. Etc., etc., etc. It is frustrating to be told something about yourself that is not true. You know you were sincere, you know you were completely convinced, you know you tried to do everything expected of you according to their interpretation of the Bible, and you know what you felt towards Jesus in your heart at the time. These people need to be able to disregard what former members like us say about their path in order to keep doubts at bay themselves. They need to find a reason why we left that makes sense to them and doesn't threaten their world view. Also note how Vyckie's views are labeled "bitterness" because of her first divorce. I've always been aware that I'm forever tainted in the church because of my divorce, anything strongly worded I might say about marriage or men can be labeled "bitterness" and discarded.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 26, 2009 19:22:56 GMT -5
I only did the dresses thing for about 6 months...my husband LOVED it...but when he started bragging to his friends about literally wearing the pants in the family, I stopped. It just really bothered me (I was still under the impression, then, that he was holy and godly and amazing, so to see something so "fleshly" in him concerned me, and I didn't want to be the source for his pride...and, besides, I hated the dresses...the ones he loved best were the most shapeless prairie style ones, of course, too.....I am just now getting to the poitn where I can put on a skirt every now and then). His big thing was anything that looked attractive. I was to look nice, clean cut, but not attractive, if that makes any sense. Anything that he felt was sexual, or too form-fitting, or too revealing, was out. Shirts had to come to the neck. Pants couldn't be too tight. So my main wardrobe was loose jeans and t-shirt style tops with high necks... My ex-husband would only comment positively if I was dressed very unattractively. I was very naive (wanted to always believe the best about him) for much too long a time and I never could understand this. If I asked him how I looked and I was dressed nicely he had a standard reply: "it looks better than a pile of shit". Yes this is what I heard and why I kept asking I have no idea. If it was the plainest ugliest thing in the world he might say it looked good. I remember getting given a bunch of maternity dresses once for summer, some were very pretty hippy style ones. He hated all of them. There was one "dress" which was quite likely a failed sewing project. It was a lurid plaid and was like a huge square sheet. I had tried it on as a joke, it was completely shapeless. That was the only one he liked. I remember arguing with him--I couldn't believe he didn't see that this wasn't actually a dress in any sense of the word but he stuck to his guns, that was the only one that was any good. Eventually I came across the word to describe him--misogynist. He really hated anything to do with women and anything traditionally associated with female-ness. He hated women who dyed their hair, hated stockings, hated shaving your legs, LOATHED makeup of any kind, hated jewelery especially pierced ears. He also hated short hair on women but I think he saw that as uppity in some way. He was deeply sarcastic of my QF friend behind her back because she loved lipstick. He even hated bras and thought it was "vain" to wear them (I ignored this of course). It was something of a revelation to see that this was not about religion or personal taste or God's "plan" for women, it was about his personal deeply rooted misogyny. He had hated all those things before he became a christian. His depth of female hatred was so great that he also hated commercials on tv for breast cancer research or any woman on television talking about having breast cancer. He would literally begin spewing obscenities at the television if he saw this, calling these women whores and leeches on society. Nowadays I almost always wear skirts because I don't have a good body shape for pants. I like skirts, I like the colours and patterns they come in. I do NOT own or wear nor will I ever again own or wear a denim skirt!! I like to wear skirts with my Doc Martens Just like with music it took me a while to rediscover what I truly loved. What did you wear pre-fundy days Molly? Or pre-Christian days? Remember the V-neck flatters your face (not just your boobs).
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 26, 2009 19:08:18 GMT -5
I have an aversion now to long skirts and to overly-large clothes. Because my mother was so afraid that my clothes would be too tight or revealing, she always made me wear things that were 1-2 sizes too large. Even when I wasn't wearing my father's clothes, I looked stupid. I had a pair of pants (which I was allowed to wear at home, just not to school or church) that I could pull straight down over my hips without unbuttoning or unzipping, because she was so paranoid that if they weren't that big, they would be snug around my butt. I am a very small, thin person and was then too, so I always looked like I was lost in my clothes. I've known families whose daughters are dressed like that, in massive sweatshirts and hugely blown out skirts that brushed the floor. The boys by contrast are dressed in relatively normal looking clothes, conservative pants and a shirt buttoned up to the top. They are not made to hide the very shape of their bodies. There is something weird going on when the natural shape of a girl's body is something to erase. This is a different sort of attitude than just the neat prairie dresses or white blouse and denim skirt fashions. When you see a whole string of girls dressed in what amounts to sacks trailing after mom it's very alarming. What I don't get about my QF friend is that though she dresses conservatively, always a skirt etc.. she does not stand out or dress weirdly in any way. Her kids are TOTAL weirdos and are reknown for their terrible clothes. Yet their mom doesn't make choices like this for herself. Their mom would NOT go out in a bridesmaid dress with baggy jeans under it.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 26, 2009 7:41:07 GMT -5
I was going to say I don't know who to feel more sorry for in that photo Erika, you or your brother, but I think it is definitely your brother. OUCH. Reading this made me reflect back on my own QF dressing days. I dressed very conservatively but with an eye to the feminine, though this was a very standardized feminine. I put aside my natural preferences in patterns (William Morris style, or "ethnic") and made sure my patterns were the acceptably sappy florals which I knew were not in any way my natural tastes. Now here's the thing.. when I dressed in my long skirts and conservative blouses (a matching set was a great find) with my hair pinned neatly back I felt.. safe. Protected. I felt like I was actually playing the role I wanted to play, that of a wife and mother who was making righteous choices for her family, a wife and mother who had God's approval and didn't need anybody else's. That was the role I wanted to play and those clothes were my costume. When I put them on they were very reassuring, an outward sign of being right with God. When I walked out of that conservative mindset I threw EVERYTHING away. I literally had almost no clothes left. I couldn't bear to save anything that was part of that costume because it all reminded that I'd been playing a role for years that was based on fears rather than any kind of reality.. about either God or my marriage. I couldn't hide behind those costumes any more. Discovering what I liked and loved in clothes, while not as powerful to me as music or reading, was still cathartic in the beginning. And fun! Even if I didn't have any money and everything was bought in thrift stores. I bought a pair of Doc Martens and wore them for years, they seemed to epitomize the old me that I had tried to obliterate for God and also were a real kick in the crotch to the godly-womanhood trip I'd swallowed. Yes yes woman are so delicate and need to be protected.. raises boot.. (I had secretly admired Doc Martens during my godly-womanhood years though I had never verbalized this to anyone.) My QF friend's daughters all wear pants with skirts or dresses over them, a total mishmash of unmatched, often ancient and weirdly shiny clothes. They are truly bizarre looking. I'm talking about a bridesmaid dress from the thrift store over baggy jeans and a white sweater over that. I know for a fact that this has affected them socially though of course this wouldn't bother the parents. Now enough about me (I always feel bad when I reply to these posts all about ME rather than responding directly to what was said in the post, like I'm being disrespectful to the person's story ).. Erika I cannot even imagine how HORRIBLE this would have been for a 14 year old. Okay well maybe I can imagine.. because I have teenage daughters and let me tell you "you can't wear that" would be the shot that started WWIII. And I don't actually say it, they can wear whatever they want but I know just HOW sensitive they are to the topic of clothes. How much wailing and gnashing of teeth there is over something not looking just right (my god it's boring to listen to for hours when they get obsessive, LOL). The lengths they will go to, the hours they will work to buy some (to my eyes totally overpriced) item.. well it's all about identity isn't it. Which is why I only roll my eyes waaaaaay out of sight of them. Identity. Clothes are one of the first things you start making big choices about in your interaction with the world, clothes tell the world who you are! That is why they are so vitally important to the teenager who is not really sure yet who she is and has to try on these expressions of her identity to see how they suit her and how her friends and boys and people she doesn't like and everyone else in the universe responds. Identity. And you had that taken from you, the identity you'd already formed and the chance to make choices about your identity. Instead you were told "this is who you are." Terrible. And of course the set up is you can't just wail against your Mom not letting you wear something because it's not your Mom it's GOD who picked out these clothes in the end. Terrible and I'm sure it only got worse.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 24, 2009 18:41:00 GMT -5
I think it started as a white movement (and yes there are some supremacists in the dominionist writers) and if it continues for another bunch of decades you will see it spreading to other racial groups. You can see similar dispersion in other christian movements.
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 24, 2009 17:48:35 GMT -5
Vyckie I absolutely get what you say about the mindset. I was deeply attracted to the teachings (and magazines, and videos, and books, and conferences...) that really "got" it, that had that zeal to be called by god to really lay your life down. A lot of it was in continuous conflict with other christians, including other fundamentalists because it seemed no matter how bible believing someone was there was a way of applying this zealous mindset to areas of your life that other lukewarm folks just did not get. Like those bible believers that sent their kids to public school, or the bible believers where the woman worked part time or the teenagers were engaged in worldly activities with worldly people, or even EVIL activities such as karate. I mean these people were complete fundamentalists but to the zeal of the mindset they did NOT get it because they did not spend every minute of every day finding new ways to apply it to every single choice and interaction their families had.
One of the ways I really felt ripped off by god when I got out of that was that my zeal, my fervor had been so utterly misplaced. Here we were supposed to be on fire for god and I had burned myself and my family up doing just that FOR NOTHING. For total bullshit. The unthinking bible believing fundamentalists lives were 100% healthier and happier. It is horrible to feel that something you thought was wonderful, a gift even, this zeal and devotion to god in your life was just so utterly misplaced.
I missed the zeal for a long time.. because it gave such purpose. It was literally the fuel that I burned myself out on. Now I have zeal for nothing. I still have a lot of my old books, the ones that were not hideous, such as my collection of Amy Carmichael biographies. I can't bring myself to read them anymore because I suspect I will feel so at a loss when I read of her incredible zeal for God, daily sacrifices and good works.
Though I have worked a great deal of this out and understand a lot of my motivations, how much of it was gilding the cage of my abusive marriage, I haven't completely come to terms with this.. long running episode of fevered zeal and the appeal of this mindset. It was incredibly divisive within churches. Many home churches were formed by folks who wished to only associate with christians of like mindset. Not only were we fighting a cultural war with The World we were fighting a cultural war with the church at large because we knew we were right, much much righter than those other pew warmers.
*sigh*
|
|
|
Post by arietty on Oct 24, 2009 3:06:11 GMT -5
And quiverfull children most certainly do NOT freely choose the lifestyle, it is thrust upon them. Why do you say this? Of course children don't choose the lifestyle! Neither do children of atheists, workaholics, drug abusers, prostitutes, alcoholics, etc. This statement sounds kind of "inflammatory" but it is a general fact of life that children don't choose their own lifestyle. The ones that do often fail to thrive (usually called neglect). Someone needs to care for them and give them guidance til they are ready to go it alone. That is what parents are for! Each of you reading this, if you are a parent worth the name, you don't give your children all the choices in the world. You don't say to your child, "Oh, if you want to obey me, go ahead, but if you don't want to, that's okay too", or "I don't care if you don't want to brush your teeth--it's okay with me--don't then--after all, they are your teeth." Or do you? You're right no children choose their lifestyle, but they do choose how they will live as adults. If you grow up knowing your family will not accept you if you choose differently than them this is not healthy. I remember one family on TLC's big families programs had a daughter they no longer spoke to--she had been kicked out of the house when pregnant because this was a bad influence on the younger children. It's just sad to know your parents love is so conditional. A QF friend of mine had a teenage daughter end up pregnant and the whole family EMBRACED her and the daughter came home.. and it was a very beautiful thing and the daughter is doing very well as a young mom because of the great love of her family. No this wasn't what the parents wanted but they chose their daughter over their ideology.
|
|