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Post by humbletigger on Aug 28, 2010 9:29:00 GMT -5
If it's not bluntly taught, it sure feels that way to the people around QF families. There are three new (past year or so) QF families in our church. Everyone likes them. We like their children. We like the parents. We are glad they choose to hang out with us. One father is a wonderful person, honestly if you met him you would LOVE him! But there is a problem, he has no one job that will support his family. He teaches a few music lessons ($20 a week a student) and he is music director for our tiny church (a very part time job). I think all his hopes right now are resting on a CD he just cut, and I hope it sells, but his first CD *I* couldn't listen to and I really wanted to like it! They just had their 5th child- and no one signed up to bring them meals. People are just tired of helping them out, even though we really LIKE them! Oh, and they LOVE their children, and are super nurturing parents. The second family, the father has a good job working for the man. He's in IT with a corporate job. They have four kids and are in the process of trying to adopt from Africa. They can probably afford it. And I am super glad they are not having any more children of their own. And I am really super glad, that both of these families, whose oldest children are just now school age, are sending their children to PUBLIC SCHOOL! Woot! ;D ;D ;D Now I am a long-time home school mom and home school supporter, but I have done nada to encourage either of these families to home school. You know why? Because I don't believe that there are very many large families that do a good job of home schooling. Even if you are a relaxed, eclectic home school mom like myself, making sure kids get everything they need is a big job. No way I could run a large household and be the excellent home school mom I am (if I do say so myself). I'm not saying that no one has pulled it off, but of the many large home schooling families I have known, there are very few graduates I would consider well educated. The third family is in the critical final stages of QF failure. It is easy to tell yourself God will provide in the beginning. It's not that hard to feed five pre-schoolers. People are not yet burned out on rescuing your family, either. Feeding five teenagers, that's hard! Also young children just conform to whatever is expected without giving it much thought. Teenagers think and question! They do not (and should not) just go along with mom's and dad's explanation of life; they put into practice those critical thinking skills home schoolers love to promote. This third family suffered an economic setback two years ago, and all of their fancy talk about living debt-free failed them. They are in deep debt now. In fact, mom was thinking about getting a job of her own, but got pregnant again at the same time dad lost his job. They took the pregnancy as a sign that God wanted her to be a SAHM. Recently I began making friends with this frazzled mom (I like her, she's a good person!) to find out that yes, included with the anti-government rhetoric she was taught, was the idea that the church is supposed to be the Welfare Dept for Christians, and she was hurt that it doesn't work that way. She felt that taking food stamps would be a sin, even though her kids needed it. I told her that it was God-honoring that our society had decided as a unit that we did not want children in our communities going hungry, so we the people elected to create the food stamp option. It relieved her anxiety and now her children can eat well. Score one point for clear thinking! She is a very bright mom, a college graduate with a degree in theatre. I think her oldest are pretty well educated, but I really hope she will come to see that public school is NOT evil, and might even be a better option for her family given their dire financial situation. Oh and I dropped the bomb about pregnancy being a foregone conclusion when fertile people have sex, and that there is nothing supernatural about it. And she still wants to be my friend! That is my current experience with QF families. It seems that the younger moms are shaking off the fear and isolation, at least as far as public education and WIC. So, yay for that, right?
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 27, 2010 12:19:56 GMT -5
Families trying to live in deeply rural areas like mine, Many families in extremely rural areas have no idea of the meth labs, pot growing operations, and oxy addicts, sex offenders and other "benefits" of rural life that often surround them, either! Super creepy! And so true. I spent five years of my childhood in a very small town in Oklahoma and it is, for many, a dark violent ugly place to live. Not to say that everyone there is a meth addict, dope grower, wife/child abuser- but those kind of folks live with impunity in rural areas. No cops to speak of, and if there is a cop on duty, his nearest backup is twenty-five miles away. There is a lot that just gets ignored in the country.
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 27, 2010 9:42:56 GMT -5
Interesting article. Wouldn't it be great if someone would do an article on the AVERAGE QF family income to give a better picture? The Bates family has come out and admitted they live below the federal poverty level- good for them. Bad for us all that they are proud of that fact. The QF families I know well personally are up to their eyeballs in debt, something that makes them feel much shame and guilt. After all, the Duggars are doing it? Why can't they? It's very sad. For these families, finding remembering the decorative rice stored for ten years in a glass jar would be an answer to prayer! Look how God put it on mom's heart to store this rice so long ago for the need we would have in the future! So it would be nice if more were said about all the families not making it, but then those families are in no way famous- no books, CDs to promote them, and they certainly aren't going to be asked to be on an episode of the Duggars. Also the last bit about home schooling/family run businesses could be an entire article in itself. Though I don't agree with the conclusions entirely, it's an issue that deserves it's own space. Thanks for the article, Hopewell!
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 26, 2010 14:08:16 GMT -5
I should say that I don't identify as Christian any more, so that influences my view of forgiveness - to me, it's just yet another handy way for those in power to squash dissent. What I saw of forgiveness growing up was that those in power could keep abusing/dominatng, over and over and over, and their victims were just supposed to keep "forgiving", which basically meant that they kept coming back for more abuse until something snapped and they were able to get away permanently. Then, once they were away, they were criticized for not forgiving, for not being "humble", for "turning away from the faith." Forgiveness was yet another weapon used to control the (mostly female) voices who say "this happened to me, it was not ok, it needs to stop." The minute you start questioning, you're labeled as "bitter" or "unrepentant" or "apostate" and those still in the movement are told to ignore you, that you're a liar, that the abuse wasn't "that bad" etc etc etc. Then those who are still in power can look virtuous to those who are left, and it encourages the followers to just dig in deeper. So for me personally, I don't feel the need to forgive. The people that hurt me have never once apologized, and most of them have not changed their ways. I'm lucky because I don't have to see most of them ever again (and some are dead). Yes, of course, part of me would like acknowledgement that what they did was screwed up, but I also realized that truth was never going to come from them. That truth had to come from me - I had to recognize that those patterns and behaviors and teachings were not ok. Once I did that, it was easier for me to move on. So no, I haven't forgiven, but I wouldn't call myself bitter, either. I have a great life now, I don't plot revenge like I once did- I just live. But it's still important that these stories are out there. The people who spew this garbage are still out there, so the other side needs to be out there too. Thanks to everyone who tells their stories. I'm glad this site exists. Well said. Forgiveness, moving on, etc. are phrases often used to silence victims.
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 26, 2010 14:04:10 GMT -5
Well I don't know about the not-so-favorable thing (and would rather not, so don't explain on my account!) but she is eminently quotable:
That is so true! I think the economic pressure is the real reason behind the "college is a waste of time and money" talk. The truth is that they can't afford to send anyone to college, much less all their children.
Thanks for sharing your story, Kiery! I wish you every (continued) happiness!
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 26, 2010 13:58:16 GMT -5
Wow, Sierra. You were one super smart cookie, to get out of that cult! You have something amazing deep inside. What to call it? Strength? Strong Urge to Self Preservation?
You story reminds me of a fiction I read long ago, set in WW II. Two tragic lovers were working in the underground resistance against the Vichy government. They were caught and imprisoned. The man killed himself with a cyanide tablet after he couldn't take the torture anymore. The woman had an unbreakable spirit, however. She stopped eating until she was thin enough to slip through the bars on her window and escape.
Your story is so similar. I hate that you had anorexia because that means you experienced a great self-loathing you donot deserve, but it helped you escape! I bow and remove my baseball cap in honor to you!
Ah, faith healing. I bought into it at one time, and I almost died of an asthma attack. Oh, the guilt and shame of taking medicine at that time! A clear sign that you didn't "trust" God.
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 20, 2010 18:52:54 GMT -5
Amazing post, Vickye, and also the link to the previous posts. Jo, could I link to your post from my blog? So well put, how this patriarchal teaching destroys good marriages and ruins good people's lives.
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 16, 2010 13:46:13 GMT -5
ShellyC said . . . "The 1950's type of community that we see on those old black and white TV shows. Ladies having coffee and catching up together at the kitchen table, you run out of sugar, and rest assure, your friend Bette next store has some to borrow.... Friday night BBQ's in the back yard with the neighbors. Know what I mean? Has this all ceased in this crazy world?" One of the things I was amazed at were the changes I observed in the Mississippi families and communities that I had known in the late 50s and early 60s when we moved back in the early 70s after 11 or so years in California. My first wife was from Mississippi and it was a big, important part of community to get together as family and friends for a watermelon feed or a fish fry or a potluck or an ice cream cranking good time or whatever. Happened all the time. T'was good to be together. When we moved back . . . all of that had gone away. You hardly saw some of the family from one month to the next never mind friends and neighbours. Wha hoppen??? TV??? I never did figure it out but it sure was different and, I must say, quite disappointing to me for I had been looking forward to those good times again as I remembered them. And in the 15 years I lived there the second time the only community event of that sort that I saw was at the Union Community Center down the road from Ellisville, MS where they got together once a month for a potluck. That was good for sure but somehow it wasn't enough nor did it feel like the good times of those earlier years. Times had changed, eh? and not for the better in my estimation. Or was it just a case of 'You can't go back'? Know what I mean? Anyway, you obviously struck a chord, ShellyC, with that question, eh? John I remember reading somewhere that visiting with neighbors was killed by two inventions: the air conditioner and the garage. I wish I knew where that online article was. It made perfect sense to small town me. Before AC, people sat on their porches. Before attached garages, you would be on your porch in the evening and actually speak to your neighbor parking his car in the driveway next door. After AC, people stayed inside to watch TV in comfort, and with attached garages, even if you were still sitting on your front porch your neighbor would never know. He's just drive into the garage/house, put down the door, and never see you at all. So much of life is sheer logistics. ;D
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 16, 2010 13:28:55 GMT -5
I see no problem with preventing a zygote from implanting. Not at all. In fact, this insistence on treating a one-celled organizm on the same level as a being with a functioning nervous/circulatory system is why I have withdrawn my support for pro-life politics. I'm all for keeping sentient beings from the horror of death by dismemberment/poisoning, etc. But I have no problem with birth control or Plan B. Logically sound, Sierra. I am still very religious/spiritual/committed to Christianity and to my way of thinking, pro-life. But that pro-life includes people already breathing and walking around on their own power, so not pro-life AFA style.
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Post by humbletigger on Aug 3, 2010 11:09:10 GMT -5
I loathe all this talk about how someone that dated was giving pieces of their heart away and will only have fragments left to give when they get married! Psychologically speaking, that is nonsensical. Biblically speaking, that is made up gibberish. The heart is a generic term for the emotional/spiritual core of a person, right? You can't "give that" away, nor can little bits of your personhood be torn off. When one says they did something whole-heartedly that does not preclude them from ever engaging in any other different activity whole-heartedly because, well, they have no "heart" left for other activities. The sheer idiocy of this statement leaves me with zero respect for the people who parrot it as some sort of proof that their conclusions are sound. Oh, and parrot it they do. You know they have never stopped to think about it seriously even once. I even know one woman who took a wedding cake to youth group, made the girls leave the room and had the boys scoop out servings of cake with their hands. The girls were invited back to see what their "hearts" will look like on their wedding day if they date. UNBELIEVABLE! I'll say it here- I have slept with dozens of men in my wild years back in the 70s, and kissed dozens more. Some of them I even fancied myself in love with, though most were merely a good time. Now even though I regret sharing something so personal and beautiful so casually, none of that has at all affected my ability to love my husband with "my whole heart".
I am a mature adult. I love my husband as a mature adult, with my "whole heart". I have never cheated on him and have no desire to cheat on him. I also love each of my two children with my whole heart. It does not diminish my love for one to love another. As fas as other fundie lies, not being a virgin has not ruined our love life either. I don't compare my husband with past lovers. They never even enter my mind! My love life with my husband is a highly personal individualistic relationship and no other relationship I have ever been in has any bearing on this one. Likewise, even when I was living in promiscuity in the 70s, it wasn't a competition. I wasn't comparing guys on a plus minus scale, but rather enjoying experiences as varied as the people themselves. That talk is so crazy. I eat every day and yesterday's meal has not ruined my appreciation for today's breakfast. Fundies are SO WEIRD!
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Post by humbletigger on Jul 13, 2010 11:18:48 GMT -5
I hate Calvinism. Yes, hate is a strong work, I know. I used it on purpose. IF Jesus really died so that the world might be saved through him, and if He really is the God who does all things well, then atonement/adoption/acceptance is really for the whole world. My faith is all up in the air and I am sure many Christians would find that heretical, but I find it heretical to deny the scriptures I am quoting above or explain them away as not meaning what they really say. I admit openly that my theology rests on personal mystical revelation of God, through the lens of my Christian culture, and I can say 100% for sure that GOD IS LOVE, GOD IS, and GOD IS GOOD. The God who revealed himself to me doesn't willingly exile anyone, but truly welcomes everyone. If there is a separation from God, it is freely chosen and not by God. For those of you who don't believe in God at all, my experience and theology is just as ridiculous sounding as anyone else's, but if you find after you die that there is a God, I assure you He loves you and wants you to be part of that love forever. Amazingly enough, I am finding out that other Christians are coming to the same conclusions I am (Trinitarian theology, Open View of the future) and it is very comforting. No babies are in hell! Hell, imho, would be a freely chosen state of turning your back on LOVE, and babies would never do that nor even be capable of doing that. If hell exists, then it seems to me that the self-righteous are in the most danger of choosing it, out of offense that "heaven" is for all of us and they need not have made their lives so difficult!
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Post by humbletigger on Jul 7, 2010 19:52:17 GMT -5
If Bill Gothard is a Godly, God-fearing man, I'll quit playing chess... *plays chess* *for the next 40-50 years* Haha, quivery! Reminds me that I once read in a fundie book by Elisabeth Elliot that woman were lesser than men and the fact that there had never been a female grandmaster in chess was proof! I read this the year that Susan Polgar earned grandmaster status, a fact I was familiar with because my husband (not me) played a lot of chess. We both had a huge laugh over that, and I quit reading that book immediately. ;D
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Post by humbletigger on Jul 3, 2010 15:47:26 GMT -5
I married into a Christian family hoping to get that closeness of extended family. And it kind of worked for a while.
When all of our children were little, we would get together once a year with my husband's parents, siblings and our children. We did this four, five times? While the children were little it worked out okay.
The oldest brother was into Gothard before I had children, so most of what they were doing went over my head. We did draw their names for Christmas, and asked people in our church what to buy for children in those days. Apparently, Care Bears was not the right answer.
They said nothing to our face, then sent us a "thank you" card thanking us for the teaching opportunity. Apparently they made a religious teaching out of stopping on the way home and dumping the Care Bear in a dumpster. My poor niece. If they had told us it was inappropriate at the time, we would have apologized and run to K-Mart and bought something the parents were okay with. But they handled it the snotty religious way in which the most heartache that could be got from the situation was wrung out. Bah.
The other family seemed more laid back, and we enjoyed all of our neices and nephews. Later the Gothard family came to their senses, and the seeming more moderate family has turned into a Phil Lancaster family cult. The third siblings, missionaries recently returned from Brazil, have always had their children in public school. Go figure.
We home school, but have always leaned away from the stricter stuff and more so as our children got older. My daughter pretty much demanded it! LOL But as we get farther and farther away from fundamentalism, our family on his side has less and less to do with us.
So, the church fill the gap of missing extended family? I wish. It has never been that way for us, but maybe because our family and the church are synonymous.
My money is on my neighbors and party friends. They are by far the most supportive of all the circles my life connects with. NOT the "church"- at least not the fundamentalis church of theonomists.
My new Lutheran church is pretty welcoming. We even have a facebook group "the fellowship of cussing lutherans"- LOL. We will not be getting any kudos from fundies any time soon.
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Post by humbletigger on Jul 3, 2010 14:28:32 GMT -5
Oh I am really hoping that when you googled Bill Gothard you found out he was a cult leader with a long-standing reputation for ruining people's lives.
If there is a hell, that's where Bill Gothard will spend eternity. No way a loving God could stomach such pride and arrogance and callous disregard for the lives he's ruined. Not a loving God.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 24, 2010 12:46:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the well wishes, those who posted well wishes.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 23, 2010 11:36:59 GMT -5
I am going to go in another direction here, because my husband is an MK/PK. I want to point out that he had no choice in the matter!
He had no choice about what to believe about anything! He didn't choose to grow up with a sense of male entitlement. It was absorbed by him without choice or intention either one.
It is a difficult path for him to become who he wants to be. He didn't start out in our married life abusive or domineering, but the ended up there by societal conditioning (fundamentalist society) and by being dominated himself growing up without respite and without anyone saying "that ain't right!".
He is coming to terms with all that, not wanting to be the abusive a**hole he had become yet not knowing why/how he got there or why/how to get out of it. He is working on all that now- in therapy, reading books that can help, trying hard to heal and be a healing person to his family.
The blanket male-bashing of fundamentalist men, at least as far as this male person goes, is unfair.
Men are victims of patriarchy too. It sucks for him.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 17, 2010 15:29:18 GMT -5
So how long until the part where Cecilia is hospitalized for attempted suicide?
(Mean and snarky, I know. But sheesh....)
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 16, 2010 7:43:53 GMT -5
In the case of an early tubal pregnancy treated with methotrexate, none of the conditions of DE applies. I part with the pro-life movement on point one. A fetus developing in a fallopian tube had no chance at life. The death of the baby is a foregone conclusion. The only real choice appears to be if the mother is going to die with her baby, be spared by methotrexate and possible be able to conceive again, or undergo surgery and permanent impaired fertility. In all cases the baby dies. The only difference is what happens to the mother. Personally, I'd go for surgery, because I wouldn't want to risk another ectopic pregnancy in a scarred fallopian tube. But then I'm not QF! If QF was logical, then they would choose methotrexate because it would least impair the woman's fertility. But it's not really about bringing babies into the world, is it? It's really about devaluing and using women.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 16, 2010 7:31:42 GMT -5
oh, cross-posted with the hospital location post above. So now I know.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 16, 2010 7:29:54 GMT -5
Sorry for the off-topic post, but that really needed to be cleared up. Is it true that Catholic hospitals won't even tell you that you would have other options that they don't offer if you sought care elsewhere? Are there any locations that a Catholic hospital would be your only option? And the biggie no one here can answer if they wanted to: why is a potential life more important than an actual life?!?!?! And another, why is the pro-life crowd so doctrine over person? My Catholic bff and I have always had the same beliefs, but in the end she votes pro-choice and I voted "pro"-life. I am voting pro-choice from now on, because it is plain that "pro-life" doesn't mean politically what it means to me. I have been so duped for so long. All that damning of feminism from the pulpit, plus my own goodwill, kept me from seeing the kind of viscous power plays the religious right was intent on making our country live under. Grrrr. I am not their patsy anymore.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 16, 2010 7:24:24 GMT -5
@ Cherylhannah,
I am certain that no emergency room is allowed to turn away a person with a life-threatening medical condition! They are required to treat first, see the billing specialist later.
I have worked with many poor and it is my understanding that billing must work with you (i.e. if all you can afford is to pay your debt $10 a week, they must accept that).
Hospitals, doctors, etc. do not have to treat non-life threatening illnesses, but then you shouldn't be in the ER for that. Many people who can't afford regular health care do go to the ER for health care though, because they will be seen and assessed. No one seeking emergency care can be turned away.
Watch Life in the ER on Discovery Medical channel. No one seeking emergency care is turned away. Homeless guys will complain of chest pains just so they can get a bed and a meal. The doctors must take every patient serious.
I have no idea where that ridiculous story of ruptured appendix came from, but there is no basis for that in fact.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 14, 2010 14:26:52 GMT -5
According to the first article, the calculated risk is: He said the chances of such an embryo surviving is one in 60 million. I don't even buy lottery tickets, and that one in 60 million would be a positive payout. One in 60 MILLION! No way a sane person would play those odds. 59,999,999 mothers/babies die for each one mother/baby who makes it. The risk has been calculated, and it is unacceptable.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 10, 2010 16:52:55 GMT -5
I am blown away, Sierra. I can't believe your mother, a woman herself, would not celebrate and cherish her daughter. Mental illness? Pffff. Uh, yeah. I am so very sorry you grew up invisible. And so very glad you have the strength to share your story today. Your gracious and kind words on this forum stand out and call for attention and respect. Thank you for surviving, and healing, and loving. You are amazing.
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 9, 2010 16:03:57 GMT -5
Yes, someone needs to write a "Christian parenting" book about the joys of sass back, because it means your children have backbone! ;D
That really should be a thing to be celebrated, along with spunk, self-awareness and individual initiative- even if that individual initiative WAS making your face up like Alice Cooper for Wednesday service.
(Yes, my daughter actually did that once. I tolerated it but I was hardly celebrating. Recently she thanked me and told me she really respected me for allowing her the freedom to find herself even though it was not always pretty.)
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Post by humbletigger on Jun 8, 2010 16:07:37 GMT -5
I can't speak from experience as a QF daughter, but the total milleu control these QF families have over their children would prevent that kind of defiance ever happening. Especially if we're talking Pearl parents: they spank repeatedly, until a child's will is broken. They set out early on in discipline with the express goal of breaking their children's will.They withhold affection, isolate even from other family members, until the child does what is expected. Children have emotional needs. They are very dependent on their parents. In order to secure the love and acceptance they NEED, they learn to squelch their own needs and desires and subject themselves to what their parent's demand. The Pearls counsel to start this on infants. So do the Ezzos. There really is no choice but outward compliance. That's why the depression is so severe. I have read several young women's stories of suicidal thoughts, gestures and serious attempts. Angel is far from the only one. Outside the girls have been complying, but inside they know they don't want to be surrogate mom, house keeper, cook and laundress for their parents forever. Outwardly they do as they should, then squelch the anger and turn it inward where it shows as depression. They have no other choice, as long ago in early childhood they learned the total domination and rejection that comes from saying "no" to their parents. Now, I write all that to say that I understand how strong-willed teens in that situation simply cannot speak up for themselves. They speak up with suicide attempts, or they escape as soon as they drum up the courage. But I did know one patriarchal mom who had a daughter who just said "no". This family was atypical though. Mom was an unschooler who allowed her daughter to have her own mind in many other areas. And Dad was Mr. Easygoing, an atheist and was not about to make his daughter comply with mom's fantasy family agenda. In this family, mom eventually left the home schooling, the patriarchal thought and the faith. She had one more child, then allowed herself to actually use the Ring! I wish she were still a Christian (my personal bias) because she dumped all her Christian friends when she left the faith, me included. Though she needn't have dumped me. I had no intention of coercing her to believe anything. I just wanted to stay friends.
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