|
Post by humbletigger on May 23, 2010 17:00:05 GMT -5
I want to say how incredibly helpful to me the first two pages of this discussion thread have been. Thanks to everyone posting. Even though none of it was intended for me, I still found it beneficial. And NO, the "ninety-nine righteous" if by that you mean those still professing Christianity, are NOT praying whatever it takes. But a lot of fundamentalists are, unfortunately. I met a college student last year, an outcast from her family for not obeying Daddy's every edict, who heard similar crap from a Christian. This girl got hit by a car (she's okay now!) because she had to walk home from work in the dark, and work requires all black uniforms. There was nothing supernatural about it at all. It could've happened to ANYONE in that situation! And yet some Christian told her that it was God trying to get her attention and turn her back to the faith. Who is this mobster God these Christians profess?! This is not the first time I have heard this crap, and it sickens me that people think this way. If I thought for one minute that God was like that, I would be an atheist too, on sheer principle that I will not knowingly support a criminal mastermind thug. Sheesh.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on May 13, 2010 13:47:02 GMT -5
There's a book on my bookshelf, The Gifted Adult.
It tells of common characteristics that gifted people share, and one of them is intensity.
Maybe that explains why so many exceptional people do get involved in co-dependent or cult relationships- we are looking for something more-more personal, more spiritual, more intense.
This is something to be aware of in our selves and guard against its misuse on our part or manipulation on the part of others. Like everything in life, it's both an asset (one can be passionate about art, spirituality, righting injustice, etc.) and a liability (it can cloud our judgment so that we expect more from others than they can comfortably give, or get us involved in cults/codependent relationships).
I think about the time I get life figured out all the way I'll be too old to do much about it! ;D
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on May 13, 2010 6:52:17 GMT -5
I can't imagine having to pretend to believe in something that seemed nonsensical to you. I have been called "liberal" lately, since I am no longer a fundamentalist. ;D I seem to have come through fundie land with a good head on my shoulders, but I shudder to think of all the harm it did my twin sister. She was continually terrified by the whole thing- hell, the Rapture, bad-things-happen-cause-you-ticked-god-off...AGAIN! I think it's great that Erica protects her daughter from visually disturbing images. I wish my mom had protected my sister from mentally disturbing images....
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on May 12, 2010 12:51:13 GMT -5
Hah! I feel so tech savvy now!
LOL @reading a book by a Christian author makes you Christian!
Reminds me of a sarcastic song from the 80s "and you'll only drink milk from a Christian cow!"
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on May 12, 2010 9:21:56 GMT -5
Hahaha! I love my life!
I just googled "J K Rowling religion" and learned a lot!
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on May 12, 2010 9:08:44 GMT -5
"I don't think the issue was whether the *kids* would believe the stuff in Harry Potter, it was that the adults believed there was some truth to Harry Potter." Not at my house, it wasn't. I am quite honest about the reasons we held back on HP until the middle school years. On the other hand, the "fact" that J.K. Rowling was Wiccan was widely circulated in fundamentalist circles, and many people did believe that. Guilty by association! I guess it was feared your children could become Wiccan by reading her stories? I haven't ever researched it to see if it was true, though it hardly matters to me, since (disclaimer: I am a Christian!) the book series was a fiction, not a systemic theology textbook.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on May 12, 2010 9:00:37 GMT -5
"In the latter part of the preoperational period, the child begins to have an understanding between reality and fantasy." From Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development in Children: found at this link www.telacommunications.com/nutshell/stages.htmPiaget's Stages of Cognitive Development are commonly accepted and taught in sociology and early childhood development classes at all colleges and universities. Sorting out fantasy from reality starts at around the age of seven but happens at different ages on an individual to individual basis. Many seven year olds are already questioning cultural stories about the easter bunny, tooth fairy, etc. but some persist in believing in this sort of magical reality until much later- the oldest I've ever met was an 11 year old with developmental issues. Oh wait, my neighbor's cerebral palsy daughter held out on Santa until she was 14. I thank God I was not discouraged from learning about child development and sociology, etc. I am more grateful that my mom was a feminist every day. Even though she used feminism, like she used Christianity, only to manage her public persona and thereby gain narcissistic supply, both of those worlds have had an enormous positive impact on me. ps how do you apply blockquotes?
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on May 11, 2010 9:42:26 GMT -5
choiceisgood,
OMG no! Who would do that to a child!? So sorry that you and your daughter experienced that.
I used to be afraid of Harry Potter books, but it was not on that level!
I just didn't want my children playing witch when they were still too young to really differentiate between fantasy and reality- though even that cracks me up now. I'm pretty sure that didn't bother me when they dressed up as Superman, pirates or princesses.
When the movies came out, the oldest was old enough to watch. The younger got nightmares from watching the Scooby-Doo movie though. He still needed to grow some. He skipped HP altogether and graduated right on through to Dawn of the Dead!
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on May 10, 2010 11:50:46 GMT -5
Librarians rule!!
I feel for you, Erika. Having everything in your life scrutinized and controlled must have been horrible!
As a home school mom, I am GUESSING (only guessing, I don't know your mom) that your mom chose isolation for you because it meant community for her.
The "Christian" home school community, from a mom's perspective, is very much like public school. There are "in" ways to dress, and if you don't want to be excluded, you better wear the right stuff. There are "in" curriculum to choose, "in" conferences to attend, and- as you know too well- "in" ways to parent your children.
As a parent who very rarely agrees with what is "in" in Christian home school circles, I can say that without a doubt if your mom did not want to live ostracized, she had to conform. The more conformity, the more acceptable she would be to the other moms.
And since the strictest, most austere lifestyle was the only one no one could find fault with, they are the ones who get to decide what is sin and who is out. The Heidi Klum of the home school community wears frumpy clothes, no makeup and probably a head covering, at least at church!
It is so ironic. The very thing they claim to be saving their children FROM, the dreaded PEER PRESSURE, is a demi-god ruling their entire existence. It's religious in that the group they are trying to fit in with is religious, but it is PEER PRESSURE in its purest from, once the veneer is stripped away.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 29, 2010 9:02:35 GMT -5
While my heart breaks for the pain you experienced Kiery, I applaud you for having the courage to break out on your own! I chose home schooling for freedom: all those things you said your parents wanted for you "to think for myself, to stand up regardless of pressure" - that is what I wanted for my children to take out of home schooling. But as a parent, when it finally happens it is shocking. My children choose things I wouldn't choose?! Or making choices I also made but later regretted?! I am so sorry your parents didn't choose to relinquish control, listen to you and your beau, and bravely sail off into the wild unknown future trusting that the God Who is Love would see you all through. Or even just trusting their own parenting! Or dare I say it, trusting their intelligent, thoughtful daughter!! I can't wait to read the rest of your story. I am just guessing you didn't sit down and shut up about your own life, meekly allowing your parents to dictate your whole future. Or you wouldn't be posting your story!
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 28, 2010 8:09:29 GMT -5
I always expressed using the "cow method".
It wouldn't work well if you wanted to store your milk, as standing up and expressing into a Mason jar can really do a number on your back after awhile. (I did try!)
But to relieve pressure and just get the milk out, I would stand in a hot shower and milk that teat like an old farmer. (It helps if you have actually milked a real cow before ;D)
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 25, 2010 13:43:35 GMT -5
Jane, I know you from other place on the world wide web, and I think you're awesome. To be honest, I don't always read your entire posts. But I have on this thread, and I appreciate your sobriety and realism. I have a friend whose marriage is failing. She will be early fifties, with four kids still at home, no income...yep, I will be checking out your links! Having also been homeless, I hear what you're saying. As part of our high school economics, I have my kids read Nickled and Dimed by Barbara Ehreneich. You do come off angry in most posts (no duh! If RA stands for ritual abuse I can see why) and your writing style is pretty ADD, but I always figure if I don't want to read it, I know how to scroll past your post.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 23, 2010 14:00:46 GMT -5
Most fundie children are fed the line that college, if not a bastion of eeevil liberal heathen pagan atheist witchcraft-cannibals, is an overwrought scam. Their parents talk as though college is an enormously expensive work permit required for certain jobs As one who was kicked out on the street with nothing at eighteen, college DOES seem like an enormously expensive work permit, and a liberal arts degree like a very expensive and fascinating way to spend four or more years of your life, if you can afford the indulgence. That's exactly why I am home schooling mine to succeed in college! They need that work permit! (Okay, I know what they really need is the training to do whatever it is they want to do and do it well. Just saying I know how hard it is trying to get by without that degree! Not an easy road, no ma'am.)
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 23, 2010 13:17:27 GMT -5
I love your stories, tapati! They have helped me gain a better acceptance of the sincerity of my neighbor's faith- not the stories of your abuse, but the way you still worship and believe yourself.
Though I must confess, I am hurting reading your birth story. Owie , owie, owie! My niece just had her first- at home, delivered by the father.
I don't think she's allowed to contact me, since I didn't get an official birth notice. Her mother didn't even contact me, so since they are patriarchy I am sure it must an edict from the father. *sigh*
I think I'll send a gift anyway, maybe it will soften her heart a little.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 21, 2010 13:14:46 GMT -5
Great point about being able to sell/give no longer wanted horses out to someone else. No, you can't do that with siblings!
And also, having horses was the poster's choice to begin with! The Duggar girls have no choice about whether or not they will be caring for yet another sibling. NO CHOICE!
A better analogy is turn of the century girls being sent to the mills to help feed the ever-growing family of pre-birth control days. It didn't matter what they'd like to do; the family needed them to help provide. They would probably say they were glad to help, and give no thought to any alternative life because it was impossible anyway.
That's more like a daughter in a QF family. Your love for your family drives you to do whatever you can to help out. Mill work was hard, but to a girl who loved her family, she could endure it. Love for her family gave her strength.
Does that mean that the child labor movement was not needed? Of course not. Just because love makes the hard work less burdensome does not mean it is GOOD for teen girls to have to work ten hour days to help their family.
Turn of the century child labor seems like an appropriate analogy in all these ways:
The social/political environment the girls lived in left them no choices.
Love for their families mitigated the hardship.
The work is long and hard and seven days a week, leaving no time for education and/or a social life outside of home and work, which for QFers is one and the same.
I will say that the QF workplace, being a modern American home, is much safer than turn of the century mill work. But I think it is a fitting analogy in many ways.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 21, 2010 12:34:35 GMT -5
My mom is not diagnosed NPD, because of course nothing is wrong with her, she's perfect! I have read widely on the subject (just finished Will I Ever Be Good Enough? Great read.) so when I write that my mom is incapable of love that is exactly what I meant to write. Experts now propose that there is a continuum of narcissism; that both biological and environmental factors affect the development of NPD; and that for some there CAN BE improvement with treatment. Those "some" are the ones low enough on the continuum to SEEK treatment. I am glad for the poster whose father is included in this lucky group. My mom is not in that group. She will never seek treatment. Since *I* diagnosed her as NPD and modified my expectations and behavior in accordance, my relationship (such that it is) has improved dramaticallly. Not all my sisters agree with the label. The more enmeshed sisters have a hard time accepting that. But we all agree that my mom is incapable of love, or hasn't ever truly loved anyone ever that we know of and we do not expect that to change now that she is in her seventies. For other grown daughters suspecting that might be the case, the book GrandmaLou recommended is a great place to start. I also like Children of the Self-Absorbed.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 21, 2010 12:10:16 GMT -5
Thanks, Jane! I will send her that link!
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 21, 2010 12:08:52 GMT -5
For the first time, my friend was physically afraid for her safety and her children's safety last night. She has an appt with the local DV outreach this Friday. Those of you who pray, please say a prayer for her safety and for wise advice to come her way.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 20, 2010 10:37:21 GMT -5
Jon Zen just published a great book What's With Paul and Women? that brings up the hair verses.
Sheesh. What a big to do over nothing. Much sympathy to all abused thereby.
Score on the extra sleep, Sierra! Bwahahaha. It gives me wicked pleasure to envision you catching more ZZZs while the hairspray brigade was hard put. ;D
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 17, 2010 20:08:58 GMT -5
Ladies,
Thank you so much for all the links and heartfelt words! I appreciate it very much. I will share the links with my gf, and check them out myself.
Yes, healing is messy business. I suffer from PTSD. I totally get how certain language/tone/approach in a religious person's post could set someone off.
I just feel so much symapthy for my friend. Everything she has ever believed in and tried to accomplish in her life is crashing down around her. She is facing the truth that her husband is abusive, and that is HARD! She built her whole life around this vision of the Christian family/home. It's going to be a rough journey for her ahead, no two ways about it.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 17, 2010 20:00:22 GMT -5
(((music mom))) My mother was both abused by patriarchy and an abuser. But as a kid, I didn't know that. All I saw was large doses of feminist ideology at the time. I thought that she rejected my sister and me (the twins) because feminism taught that children were a burden. Twins are double burdens. Now I know that she is incapable of love because she has NPD. The feminist movement simply provided her with a venue for mock heroism. The irony? Feminists actually helped save my butt by getting mom out of the home and giving her other venues for narcissitic supply. My life would have been a thousand times worse if she had been a SAHM! As a woman, I chose to be SAHM and even make a career out of it by home schooling as well. I wanted my children to KNOW they had value! They were worth my time and attention! But like daughters of NPD are prone to do, I married a man who would be emotionally distant and later abusive. My husband is getting help- has been diligently for a year and a half now. And while I wouldn't call him cured (how long will he have to be symptom free for that pronouncement?) cuz I think it's like alcoholism. If you think you're cured you fall right back into it. And no, I don't believe it has anything at all to do with my praying or having faith or anything else like that. If I have contributed anything, it is by being willing to leave. My feminist influence growing up paid off! ;D Incidentally, for anyone still practicing the Christian faith, Jon Zen just published an excellent, excellent book titled What's Up With Paul and Women? I hate patriarchy and complementarianism, the longest lasting and ugliest heresies to ever afflict the church.
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 14, 2010 15:48:17 GMT -5
sierra wrote:
"But atheism was and is only one option - rehabilitating the image God from someone hanging over their heads in condemnation to someone who is on their side is just as valid an endpoint to the process of leaving spiritual abuse. "
Thanks for that.
And to Vickye and the author of the article:
Thanks for posting something that a Christian QFer or potential QF could read and relate to.
I know people don't intend to hurt others, but I have sent one frustrated QFer to this forum hoping she could find some help, only to have her feel further devalued and abused, this time for being a Christian.
Yes, she still does have quite a bit of Christianese in her language, which is probably a trigger for others. I get that.
But it was still a very painful experience for her and it didn't help her on her journey to extricate herself from her abusive situation.
She is just now coming out of denial, and is no position financially to leave, and has very much to lose and very little support in the event she were to leave. And at any rate, I can not see her leaving Christianity but rather leaving an abusive lifestyle/partner behind.
Just contemplating separation is such a huge, huge thing for her. If you know of any web site where she will not have to defend her faith as she sorts it out, I would appreciate a link. I know about Quivering Daughters, but is there any place where moms leaving husbands/doctrines but not leaving the Christian religion can feel safe?
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 14, 2010 15:30:59 GMT -5
Yep, yep. n_n
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 12, 2010 12:39:38 GMT -5
" Feminism is about offering women choices about how to live our lives. And that scares a lot of people. " I would like to edit that word "offering" out of there and adding the word "making" right after the word "women". Feminism is about women MAKING choices about how to live our lives. And that scares a lot of people. If you wait for someone to offer you a choice, it could be a while. I am reading a book God of the Possible by Gregory Boyd about open theism. Excellent book. I feel more responsible for the choices I make, more responsible to love others, more responsible pray for others, and more responsible to LIVE after reading this book. My marriage has been troubled for many years. When I bought into the "woman submit" stuff, even half-heartedly, things got worse. It was bad for everyone. But when I stood up for myself, things got better not just for me but my whole family. I believe it's what God wanted all along! I am not divorcing, but I COULD! I could and not feel guilty at all, if my husband was not in counseling and doing the work needed to heal. (Loved the ACoA reference way back there.) Not only that, if my husband returns to being abusive, it is my obligation to say NO! I was not created to be abused! Thanks for the opportunity to write that in a public forum! It was so liberating!
|
|
|
Post by humbletigger on Apr 6, 2010 18:23:50 GMT -5
It is all backwards!! Leadership has nothing to do with gender, and pushing that idea screws over both men and women. I am an outgoing talker who loves ideas, a real go-getter. My husband (and this may change as he gets more healed up from growing up fundie) is a much quieter soul, afraid to take risks and on the lazy side.
Every time I took that lame "woman hold yourself back" advice, disaster would ensue. I finally made the wise decision to just blow off all the marriage teachings, because they didn't make sense. I am much happier for it.
On an aside, I loathe the name Phil Lancaster. My bro-in-law used to name drop that moniker (Phil Lancaster said to me the other day...) and I was blissfully ignorant of who he was. Now my grown nieces and nephew and their children are trapped on the family compound in the mountains of NC, without the skills or the desire (thanks to patriarchal teaching crammed into their brains) to want better for themselves. It is so so sad.
|
|