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Post by cereselle on Sept 15, 2009 15:28:46 GMT -5
Pardon me for being shallow. But why didn't all the girls have long hair? Were they being mini-Jezebels?
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Post by cereselle on Sept 5, 2009 9:24:53 GMT -5
ISTR that's how they knew Michelle was pregnant with #17-- the older girls realized, when they were doing the wash, that she hadn't bled on anything when she was supposed to have her period, so they called her and said "Mom, we think you're pregnant!" I do credit the Duggars with getting me interested in QF and other P religions, which stands me in good stead here.
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Post by cereselle on Aug 31, 2009 10:42:06 GMT -5
<i>To add to the conversation about "help centres" etc: I fully agree that they are needed, but I also think they need to be subtle: no feminism-type books on display: even colour is important! It's all about the details in order to make these women as comfortable as possible....</i>
PrincessJo, I think you're right, and that's something we'll have to consider when we write up something for counselors. Argh, so much to write!
Rosa, I have no idea if there's one word that encompasses everything. I was thinking about that as well-- not all patriarchalists call themselves Quiverfull, and then there's Dominionism and Joel's Army and all the stuff Dogemperor has written about. It's a grassroots movement, not a top-down movement, so it's much harder to say what is and what isn't part of it.
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Post by cereselle on Aug 26, 2009 16:18:29 GMT -5
Vyckie said: That's a very good idea. Kind of a basic backgrounder on QF. I was talking with my family about this a few weeks ago, and was surprised to find out they'd never heard of QF or any of these P groups. If they, conservative Christians, don't know about it, how much less must Random Joe know? Does someone want to draft this? I was just thinking about this on the way to work today. I don't yet know whether the Y has a limit on the number of children one can bring, but I'm reminded of the group Tapestry Against Polygamy ( www.polygamy.org/), which is made up of people who have escaped abusive religious situations involoving polygamy. From their website: What if we were able to create something like this for ex-QFers? Or, at least, maybe TAP would let us work with them, even though we're not looking at polygamy. The two situations are similar otherwise, with abusive religion, patriarchy, a life outside the 'real world,' and women leaving with many children. Am I thinking too big? Should we just write up a backgrounder and have it for women to take with them to regular shelters?
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Post by cereselle on Jul 31, 2009 12:53:24 GMT -5
A resource: The Journal of Religion and Abuse ( www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~content=t792306954~db=all ) Sadly, this ceased publication last year, but there may be some articles in there worth reading. It would be a citeable resource, at least. I can drive to another school a couple hours away and copy stuff out of this. Those interested, could you please check the tables of contents of those issues and tell me what you think would be useful?
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Post by cereselle on Jul 31, 2009 12:36:46 GMT -5
Bad case for us: www.legalnewsline.com/news/213856-texas-supreme-court-rejects-exorcism-lawsuitIn brief, an AoG group pinned a 17-year-old to the floor and attempted to exorcise demons. She was left with bruises, abrasions, and what looks like symptoms of PTSD. The trial court awarded her $300,000; the appeals court reduced that, but the state supreme court threw it out entirely, saying that it was part of religious expression and the court couldn't regulate it. The US Supreme Court did not choose to hear the appeal. So the Texas Supreme Court's decision stands. This will make it much more difficult to sustain any allegations of QF abuse in Texas. Boo.
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Post by cereselle on Jul 31, 2009 12:00:04 GMT -5
For abuse definitions for each state and territory, see www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/defineall.pdfCan someone non-legal take a look at this and tell me if it makes sense to you? Tapati, thanks for that link. I'm checking out that site, and this part looks very useful: www.nccp.org/tools/policy/Most of what I'm finding doesn't include statute citations, so I'm working on that. I want to summarize the law for each question in narrative form, to make it more detailed. I would love to see a criminal trial of some of these QF guys. Or even a lawsuit that went to trial instead of being settled. Grr.
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Post by cereselle on Jul 30, 2009 9:57:48 GMT -5
Whatever info. is included pertaining to practical aspects of leaving ~ needs to take into consideration that QF women have to do everything times 6, 7, 8 or more kids.
That's true, and I am taking it into account. I know the YWCA takes women and their children-- I emailed my local Y to ask some more detailed questions, but never heard back. I may try with another one. It might be nice if someone had info. regarding which states have more liberal access to state aid. For instance ~ here in Nebraska, due to the way they calculate "assets" ~ I, an "unemployed" single mom with six kids at home and an income of approx. $1,000 per month, do not qualify for food stamps ~ maybe not for the free lunch program either. I'm pretty sure if I were living in California, I would not have to worry about how to pay for groceries.
Also true, but CA has a much higher cost of living, so I'm not sure you'd be much better off there. In any case, links to the appropriate information for each state would be good. Ideally, we'd have an appendix table with a brief answer for each question from each state. We call them "50-state surveys" in my business. That will be a pretty big undertaking, but I think it's worth it. Charis, wow, thank you for the Botkin's Syndrome info. That's good stuff to know. Anything that makes these behaviors more "officially" abuse or suspicious is useful. Maybe we need a sub-FAQ on identifying abuse?
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Post by cereselle on Jul 28, 2009 16:33:00 GMT -5
I'm so very interested in your story, Erika. I'm not a mother, and never will be, but I can totally relate to parental imposition of religion. I wonder what I would have been like had I been raised normally, and my situation was nowhere near yours.
I'm awaiting the next installment (not so) patiently...
(BTW, I don't intend to derail the thread, but how do you get your hair to dread? I've considered it, but mine is fine, limp, and oily, and I'm not sure that's conducive to dreads.)
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Post by cereselle on Jul 28, 2009 16:23:57 GMT -5
Rather than answering each question as it's asked (because answers are going to depend on jurisdiction), I'm going to take the questions and put them in one master document according to topic, then work on writing general and specific answers. Here's the first draft of the outline. Tell me what I'm missing, or what doesn't need to be there! I. Find a place to go. A. Family B. DV shelter 1. How to find C. YWCA 1. How to find
II. What to bring with you to make things easier later on A. Kids' vital papers B. Any prior documentation of abuse 1. Doctors' reports 2. Police reports 3. Pictures, video, child's drawings
III. Divorce and Custody- Facts A. Custody 1. Fathers' rights 2. Wishes of the child 3. Circumstances that bear on custody 4. Temporary vs. permanent custody B. Alimony C. The house
IV. Finding a lawyer A. Paying your own 1. Finding a good one B. Pro bono 1. How to find a pro bono attorney C. Legal Aid 1. How to find Legal Aid office D. Law school clinics 1. Clinic info and locations
V. Helping your lawyer via legal research A. County law library 1. Locations B. Legal encyclopedia C. Treatises D. Forms
VI. Finances A. Child support B. Alimony C. Welfare D. Food stamps E. S-CHIP F. Medicaid G. How to find a job 1. Childcare 2. Guides to returning to the workforce
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Post by cereselle on Jul 28, 2009 10:20:59 GMT -5
I say go with whatever makes you happy. Also, it might be a good time to change the name-- 2spb doesn't seem to match with NLQ.
Speaking of 2, I hope Laura's okay. We miss her!
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Post by cereselle on Jul 20, 2009 12:20:38 GMT -5
Oh thank you, Vyckie! ;D I'd like to hear from everyone who's already left. Where did you go? How did you find a lawyer, or did you? What did you do for money? If you got a job, how did you find childcare? Was there a custody battle? Most of all, what do you wish you knew then that you know now? I have more questions than that, but those should get us started.
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Post by cereselle on Jul 16, 2009 15:13:52 GMT -5
Thanks, lectio. I get patrons coming in all the time, knowing they need something from the law, but not knowing what they need or how to get it. Because I'm not a member of the state's bar, I can't give them legal advice, but I do my best to guide them to what they might need. I can only imagine what it must be like for women who are socialized to be afraid of "the world." Vyckie, could you start a thread for this topic? Maybe title it "How do I leave my QF life?" I'm beginning to outline the sections (divorce, child support, finding a job), and I don't want to clog up this thread. Thank you!
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Post by cereselle on Jul 14, 2009 12:59:26 GMT -5
I guess I'm not able to start a thread on my own. I'd like to put together a guide for a woman who wants to leave her husband, but doesn't know where to start. What if she has no money for a divorce lawyer? How can she get custody of the kids? What's alimony? How can she prove child abuse? Are they eligible for welfare, Medicaid, S-CHIP? I'm a professional legal researcher, so I can take a good crack at this. But I would love to hear any other questions QF women might have.
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Post by cereselle on Jul 13, 2009 10:22:35 GMT -5
Oh GrandmaLou. That must have been devastating for you. You were a child, unable to understand what you did, and the guilt your mother caused you to feel would have been overwhelming. I want to take that child in my arms and hug her. *HUGS YOU*
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Post by cereselle on Jul 13, 2009 10:16:41 GMT -5
This came up in my daily reading today-- not sure where it should go, but I wanted people to see it, and it seems like it applies here.
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“If a woman has a prolonged discharge of blood outside the period, or if the period is prolonged, during the time this discharge lasts she will be in the same state of uncleanness as during her monthly periods. Any bed she lies on during the time this discharge lasts will be polluted in the same way as the bed she lies on during her monthly periods. Anyone who touches it will be unclean and must wash clothing and body and will be unclean until evening.” LV 15:26-27 (NJB)
In Mark 5, we read what is popularly known as “The Cure of the Woman with the Hemorrhage” v.v. 25-34
“Now there was a woman who had suffered from a hemorrhage for twelve years; after long and painful treatment under various doctors, she had spent all she had without being any better for it; in fact, she was getting worse. She had heard about Jesus, and she came up through the crowd and touched his cloak from behind, thinking, “If I can just touch his clothes, I shall be saved.” And at once the source of the bleeding dried up, and she felt in herself that she was cured of her complaint. And at once aware of the power that had gone out from him, Jesus turned round in the crowd and said, “Who touched my clothes?” His disciples said to him, “You see how the crowd is pressing round you; how can you ask, “Who touched me?” But he continued to look all round to see who had done it. Then the woman came forward, frightened and trembling because she knew what had happened to her, and she fell at his feet and told him the whole truth. “My Daughter,” he said, “Your faith has restored you to health; go in peace and be free of your complaint.” (NJB)
The law from Leviticus quoted above is part of a larger series of law (not too large if you want to read chapter 15 for yourself) that was intended to convey the mystery and sacredness of the beginnings of life by governing both seminal discharges of men and the menstrual cycles of women. In short, these were laws meant to protect the sacred character of sexuality.
There have been various theories throughout the years as to what the woman in the story was suffering from. There are also a variety of different theories as to what kind of treatment she received to help her. In the book Warrior Marks: Female Genital Mutilation and the Sexual Blinding of Women by Alice Walker and Pamela Parmar, the theory is presented that part of the reason why the woman was bleeding so profusely is that she was the victim of genital mutilation. Whether that claim is accurate, we will never know. It certainly isn’t impossible. It was practiced at that time and place (as well as New York hospitals in the 1940’s), and if she was seeking treatment for intense bleeding it isn’t an unlikely treatment. Regardless, we do know that the problem she was experienced was connected with menstruation and that this woman was going through Hell. She had a terrible condition, was probably in pain and to top if off she made in to a social outsider for something she couldn’t help because the men who wrote her religious texts wanted to celebrate the mystery of life.
Even today, this is one of those stories about women from the bible that tends to get played down. I think the most popular interpretation of the story is that it is about having great faith. I think that is part of the interpretation. What seems to get left out is that there is a component of having faith strong enough to break the rules.
Oh no, not that. Not a Jesus who might be sort of subversive! Not a Jesus who liberates. Great, the next thing you know people will be receiving communion who shouldn’t be!!!
Under the law this woman should NOT have been running around touching people. In her act of desperation and hope (remember hope, she had a ton) she ignored the rules that had been governing her life for the last twelve years, made her way through a crowd and touched the man who was known as Rabbi.
Now, the penalty for what she did wasn’t death (probably a first for the book of Leviticus) but what she did was rude. It would have upset most people I am sure, because Jesus would be expected to go and bathe and wash his clothes and be unclean himself.
What might be also, just as shocking, is that she almost comes across as believing that she has a right to Grace! She thinks she has a right to be cured. No begging and groveling and washing his feet with her hair (though she couldn’t touch his feet), for this woman. Nope, like one of those pushy people getting onto a subway she pressed forward and just took grace.
She surprised Jesus too. He was reacting to feeling the power go out from him. This wasn’t an act of free will on Jesus’ part. She pick-pocketed him.
Can you just imagine, that if we were blessed with the Roman Catholic internet, who I pick on since thats my denomination (or the letter section of most Catholic newspapers) during the time of Christ’s ministry how they would have spun this event.
“I am deeply disturbed by recent events in the “ministry” of the Son of God on his way to raise the daughter of Jairus. A woman who had no business touching Jesus touched him and instead of defending Church teaching Jesus encouraged this behavior. The point is this, she was aware of the law in Leviticus, but this woman (who obviously embraces relativism) chose to violate the law of God and receive healing from his son. I think she should issue an apology immediately, and that we should discourage other people who have been bleeding for twelve years to not engage in similar behavior. God’s law is clear. If she doesn’t like it than maybe she should find a different messiah. Furthermore, I think Jesus was irresponsible. First, Jesus should have clearly explained to her what the law was on this matter and ask her to bear her sufferings with dignity, since it was God’s will she have the hemorrhage in the first place. I also think that Jesus needs to be more careful with his power. It isn’t something to be treated in such a crass and uncareful way. It is my sincere hope that the First Person in the Trinity does something about this right away, like take away his son’s healing privileges for a good long time. I just despise these “Spirit of the Law” people. They are driving the Church into the ground.
Signed,
Faithful Catholic.”
I will spare you the follow up comments on “double effect.”
I won’t go so far as to say Jesus didn’t play by the rules. I think Jesus did play by the rules. However, the rules are not about being a hard ass with no compassion. The rules are about healing, caring, casting out demons. When Jesus sent out his friends to the world that was the commission, those were the marching orders.
Part of healing, I think, means accepting that people will storm the gate of heaven. Hell will never conquer the gates of Heaven, but the hopes and audacity of a desperate woman will. She conquered the gates Heaven, got cured for it, was commended for it, and we still speak of her today. People will tell you that the Church (and subsequently Jesus) doesn’t need you. Well, Jesus needed her, her story adds to his reputation and helps us to understand him so much better. And guess what, fellow heretics; the Church is insignificant compared to Christ. They need us, and I say we follow our nameless sister and touch some cloaks without asking.
Given the nature and power of patriarchy, she probably couldn’t play by the rules. After all, even in today’s church, Women Religious who are too sassy end up getting investigated by the powers that be. In today’s Church, the majority of women report that they visualize themselves kneeling before Jesus when they pray (the majority of men report walking alongside him in their visualizations) and there are disturbingly large numbers of married women who feel that sex is to be endured rather than celebrate their bodies and their sexuality.
Why shouldn’t women feel inferior? For Pete’s sake, when Michelle Obama met with the pope this week she dressed like one of Michael Jackson’s kids on a picnic. Why? To appear respectful. Cover your head, show your humility, be a powerless baby maker.
But, brothers and sisters in Christ, right here in black and white is a woman who broke the rules. She was a woman who (granted in desperation) had the audacity to storm the Gates of Heaven even though she was afraid. Why was she afraid? She was trembling and frightened. Part of the reason was because of the cure. Because of the power that emanated from Christ (this is a reoccurring theme, that Jesus had a power that you could feel in his presence), but also because she has no way of knowing how he might react. Is he going to yell at her, scold her, slap her, humiliate her, and take the cure away?
Nope, he commends her faith, reaffirms her health and sends her in peace. Now that’s being a Son of God. The Pharisees would have had a fit!
How many of us would have had a fit?
How many of us need to follow her lead? Do we have the kind of faith that allows us do reckless things in the hope that our God is good? That our messiah cures us and helps us and sends us in peace?
Do we have faith in the man named Jesus or do we have faith in the law. Do we understand that hope doesn’t come from the law? Do we understand that our Jesus is here to liberate us, and that the power of the Holy Spirit has enshrined for all eternity in our Holy books an example of faithful dissent?
I sometimes wish she had a name. Sometimes, I think we should give her a name. I think she needs to be a patron saint for all of us who feel unclean in our churches, who fear God will reject us and hate us or at the least doesn’t want to be bothered by us.
But maybe, by being nameless she can be closer to us. We can put on our face on her person and carry ourselves through the crowds and touch Grace.
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What would the QF version of that letter say?
The woman didn't get her father or brother to come carry her request to Jesus. She took what was hers as a child of God. She came out of her home and, unclean as she was, made everything she touched unclean, breaking all the rules-- and Jesus commended her for it.
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Post by cereselle on Jul 9, 2009 13:37:53 GMT -5
I love projects like this. ;D I'm a law librarian. I work at a school that doubles as the public law library for the county. I've worked with a lot of 'pro se' patrons-- those who can't afford a lawyer or can't find one to take their case, so are handling their cases on their own. I am willing to work with other legal professionals to develop a checklist and a step-by-step guide (with the caveat that this is not official legal advice) to give women a place to start figuring things out. I'm also willing to consult with women via email/phone/chat to get them started. In fact, you've given me an idea for a possible journal article. Yay!
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