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Post by hopewell on Jun 1, 2010 13:30:39 GMT -5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you hit an important nail on the head here. Also, Brad's comment on the idea of the men of the movement being like in romance novels. "If only my husband/wife would" is actually a fairly common sign of a marriage that doesn't work, yet if we just follow patriarchy/reversal/whatever it will be totally fixed. Fix yourself first! And last. You can't "fix" your spouse. In spite of the controversy of Brad having the reversal ministry, I'd love to hear from more men. hopewellmomschoolreborn.blogspot.com/
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Post by hopewell on May 17, 2010 9:13:27 GMT -5
It's not just you! We can probably all site examples! Here are a couple: My great aunt and uncle were "pillars" in the Church & community [school teachers & later very beloved High School principal] Church prayed with them while son was in Vietnam, etc, etc. Great Aunt developed cancer in late 60s [when it WAS almost always a death sentence] NOT A WORD. Not a casserole. Not a flower. Not a card. They never went back and no one, NOT ONE SOUL, follow up. I imagine [and it is just "imagine"] they are afraid either that you will be totally hostile or that they might agree with you. You know better than most how hard it is to live a perfect life all the time! Many, many folks in Church want to be honest but are afraid to. Maybe they don't really believe, maybe they are unsure, maybe they KNOW this is not the life for them, but they still truly love & believe in the Lord. I've been thru it too and that's when I changed Churches. You know what? I found a much more honest group!! I could not get thru the day thinking I was "alone" in this--I need my faith, but I haven't had your experience with it. Reading your story, I understand why you are out of the Church--likely I would be too! I don't find your piece whinny or self-pitying at all--it's honest. That's good!
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Post by hopewell on May 10, 2010 11:04:23 GMT -5
It was preached to us that the Christian life is often a lonely one, but I had a hard time believing that this was how God wanted us to live. To purposefully put ourselves in so small of a box. To segregate ourselves from everyone and everything.
So true! I have never felt we were not to know or enjoy others! "in the world, not of the world" does not at all mean CLOSED OFF ALONE. As small as the attempts were it is nice that your Mom tried to help--not in any way you wanted, but she apparently did see some of your suffering. True needlework is not friends or active fun like basketball! I'm proud of my librarian-colleagues for defying censorship and giving you the tapes!!!
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Post by hopewell on May 10, 2010 10:56:50 GMT -5
I'm glad you recognized the insanity about troll dolls and cabbage patch kids! Believing that would be a real stretch. Still, I am totally fascinated by how people get into the lifestyle this way--it's the true realization of friendship evangelism, just not evangelism to anything but legalism. I look forward to the next installment.
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Post by hopewell on Apr 21, 2010 10:54:48 GMT -5
Great Post! I totally missed this announcement!
As has been discussed many times at TWOP and elsewhere, the idea of Michelle mothering anyone younger than Jinger is laughable. The kids were dumped on the big siblings ASAP. I've written before that I totally believe Michelle "went along" with the Full Quiver thing as long as she "only" had to deliver them all.
Another very "telling" moment was when Josh showed his car lot and pointed out "Jana's" old mini-van. Granted teens desperate for a car will take anything, but a mini-van is made to hold little kids--and of course, when would Jana not have kids with her?
The girls have spoken of "our" little kids in ways only a mother would. The boys, while obviously having a good relationship with their little siblings, do not do anywhere near the level of nurturing that the girls do. While it was sweet that John was showing Joe and "Siah about sheet metal work, it's nothing to the constant "training" the big girls do for the little kids on manners, personal habits, etc.
Who can forget, in the long-ago first "Special" "14 Kids..." the haggard faces of the older girls in their old fashioned or just out-of-style dresses, saying they "like to help--it's fun" and heading out the door to the family mini-bus in an old fashioned dress coat, with shoulder purse and diaper bag? Or that a girl of , what? 12? was doing ALL that freakin' laundry [although Mama did get up in the night to move clothes to the drier for her] or that a slightly older girl did the cooking!!
GREAT POST!!!
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Post by hopewell on Apr 15, 2010 7:58:25 GMT -5
It must not have been too much blood if he thought you'd lost your virginity--a completely bizarre response to the obvious! Once again, glad your mom was there. Sadly, your shock of it happening was the norm in the early 70s when I started the mess and embarrassment of periods! (Having to STAND UP and say "I can't shower this week" in gym with boys present was the worst!) I can imagine your Dad's reaction made you feel similar to being raped.
I've always thought it too controlling, to bizarre for words, that the GIRLS in QF families, brought up on modesty, have to chart their periods. If Mom and Dad want to publicly chart their "happy days" good on 'em. Who would you being having sex with and WHERE with all those little kids to rat you out??
I assumed "womanhood" was a celebration, since it ties in so closely with the goal of becoming a Mom. I feel for Joy-Anna Duggar, who appears to have "become a woman" and no must leave "childhood" behind while her idiot brother continue to be Tazmanian devils.
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Post by hopewell on Apr 14, 2010 8:09:22 GMT -5
Glad to see more of your story here, Ruth! First, rituals like birthdays DO mean a lot to the child and I'm sorry ATI doesn't recognize this, but I'm glad you Dad let it go to some extent. I really don't see anything "wrong" with the gifts you and your brother received for the most part. My kids often receive new jammies for birthday [useful] and sometimes other "practical" gifts. The big gift is picking a special dinner, Grandma comes over and yes, there are a few small presents like a new DVD. Now that my kids are older my son usually wants to "do" something as his gift and my daughter usually choose a slumber party with 2 or 3 friends. Not at all lavish compared to many of their classmates, but they seem fine with it. SECOND: I always wondered if the Duggars "really" did birthday parties, or if that was done to make them look "normal" or "mainstream." They do sing a different birthday song and mention that the child gets one-on-one time with the parents.
Your posts and very interesting and you are doing a real service in helping people understand the good and the bad of the life style. While I happen to think the bad out weighs the good, I genuinely appreciate it when you remind us it wasn't all bad and that each family IS different in how they live.
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Post by hopewell on Apr 13, 2010 16:56:56 GMT -5
An interesting post. I've never taken "be in the world, but not of the world" to mean I should not continue[so to speak] to live the Great Commandment. If we stay isolated, only associating with the "saved" [for want of a better term] how are we to be "salt and light" to the unsaved?
True believers” are encouraged to seek “like-minded” fellowship In a sense we all do this--we find friends and other families who share our "outlook" [spare me the "worldview" stuff!] and who have similar interests, income, same aged kids etc. The problem is when the bar becomes so high that you are stuck only with fellow travelers who also know with certainty that they are part of a new "elect"--pretty boring! And, not doing the work of the Great Commission of going into all lands, baptizing and making disciples! It's simply hiding out in the bunker and keeping your kids "pure" of such evil as singing vegetables on dvd, or music played with electric guitars, or other kids Mommy's who wear jeans!
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Post by hopewell on Apr 8, 2010 11:16:10 GMT -5
Ugh!! Don't stop the story here!!! More! More! I totally agree--while I only briefly associated with home Church/homeschoolers, I LOVED the obedience! I read even the Pearls [which happily I found the switching too horrible] to try to get my son to behave. Happily I "grew up" and focused instead on learning about the traumas suffered by abused kids adopted at a later age.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 22, 2010 9:21:59 GMT -5
My own grandpa died when I was 9. All I had to do was cry over the birthday party I had to give up. I cannot imagine having to host the wake!! By the way, I coughed up Dr Pepper laughing at the QF/ATI "one upmanship"--all the more so since I could hear the Duggar and Bates voices saying it all!!!
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Post by hopewell on Mar 19, 2010 13:37:08 GMT -5
Your story is another good reminder for all parents. I've personally taken flack from some for homeschooling, and from others for "letting" my kid go back to public school. That ache for friends was the need met by public school. You help me see it was a good choice.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 17, 2010 13:49:31 GMT -5
To answer "wisely?" Would that be opposed to answering "truthfully?" Wish I could watch--someone please post the link.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 16, 2010 9:30:43 GMT -5
OUTSTANDING!!!!
FYI-I grew up in the same hometown, same school as Ted Haggard. He was a year ahead of my brother. His dad was our Veterinarian. We were all VERY surprised when the "Middletown" series was aired on PBS in the 70s [featuring two families from our school--one the Haggard family] showing Ted's father calling out the demon of smoking from a church member at the "Church" that met in his vet clinic. "Home Churching" was unknown in those days [as was homeschooling] and we only recently acquired a conservative Baptist school, so this was really odd!! We had both Anderson University [Church of God] and Taylor University [Conservative Christian] nearby and a Christian Cult [Camp Chesterfield--or something like that] The "Glory Barn" folks were big about this time, but what we saw in that episode was very enlightening. Ted went off to Oral Roberts and that surprised folks too--he'd been editor of the high school paper and which was involved in a big legal case over a series he edited on sex ed. Until the tv show, his parents seemed "normal" and even had huge teenage parties at their house that my brother attended. Looking back I wonder if they were even home!!!! They were very nice people and were well liked in town.
Very interesting though in your post to learn about the "artwork" in Ted's Church. I remember reading that for his honeymoon he wanted to go backpacking with a group of guys [or perhaps "young people"]!!!! Very sad. When I watched him speak in Jesus Camp I was totally "weirded out" by his eyes. I don't recall them being like that "back in the day."
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Post by hopewell on Mar 15, 2010 10:41:26 GMT -5
Thanks for this post. We moved a year and half ago and have been visiting Churches ever since. It makes me mindful of what my kids go thru and glad that I've always said "let's take a vote" on whether we visit again, join or flee in horror!!!
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Post by hopewell on Mar 15, 2010 10:37:02 GMT -5
Ooooba-dooba, Ruth! I know the Duggars have said they play "games" to teach the kids obedience. I bet this is the "game." Rick Boyer goes on and on about "basic German Shepard" training kids to be instantly, willingly and blah blah obediant.
This brings to mind a tragic case involving McDonald's and a young woman from a very religious family. This occured a few years ago and was well-covered in the Louisville, KY and national media [Dateline or 20/20 I think]. A young woman, working at McDonalds, had grown up with this type discipline. A phone hoaxer called the restaurant and got the manager on duty. The male manager, being truly stupid, believed the caller was in fact the police. The hoaxer described a "generic" young woman and the Manager said "yes" they had "her", at the callers request she was brought in, STRIP SEARCHED. At one point another employee came to the door--the girl was given a plastic apron to put on. The employee did nothing. The caller and manager went on to do a body cavity search and later perform sex acts on her.
In trial, when the attorney for McDonald's [for whom I then worked] asked if it occurred to her to SCREAM people lambasted him for insensativity. As a father, he was truly horrified by the crime--be even more so that this poor young woman "took" it all without even trying to get away or get help.
It's sad that so many of the parents who NEED to hear this won't--they don't have "worldly" tv and wouldn't watch a "pornographic" discussion of this case. Yet it happened, others were in the working area of the restuarant at the time and no one did anything.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 5, 2010 13:53:04 GMT -5
"As everyone knows, the murdered girl was adopted from Liberia. With that in mind, here is a story that is quite troubling. After reading it I wondered how many of these adoption crusaders will be following Pearl or Ezo. And, can both foreign and US governments improve the screening process, weeding out Pearl followers? www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-s....battlecry/full/" Of course this is true! My children are among the many who were adopted thru Church-based programs. I did not have to sign anything pledging to bring them up in any faith, but did have to go thru a Christian adoption agency for my state-approval. I have written elsewhere [maybe here or FJ or Razing Ruth] about "kid collecting" thru international adoption and the ways the children are often treated VERY differently from the biological children. Having been to Ukraine to adopt, having lived in Southern Africa I will say the kids DO get an immediate boost in life expectancy [the children in the Pearl article being rare exceptions] and a better overall quality of life for the most part. Remember, most adoptions have no reason to ever make the news! My son [and countless others] would have died without necessary medical treatment had he not been adopted [in my son's case it was a savage infection from a bad tooth]. As always, the "bad apples" spoil it for all. That said, the families usually come home to NOTHING in the way of support except prayer and other families struggling to adjust. Finding therapists [and paying for them] is a struggle. Today many communication problems can be quickly solved with the Internet, but many children come home to a totally new language as well as culture. Like with many "Crisis Pregnancy" ministries, the "Life" of the child is saved, but then the parents are totally on their own. In our case, we knew one family who was very likely "abusive" and countless others who would be classified as "struggling" While I WAS at least given the name of a fashionable pediatric group who decided to specialize in "foreign adopted" children, that was the ONLY resource I was given. One Church-affiliated counselor recommended spanking my son whenever he did anything bad. Thankfully, I kept looking! I eventually found an excellent therapist. But many such families would not be that lucky--either from insurance that won't pay, or only pays for certain care providers, or because they are self-employed and uninsured. Those are the times when parents, in desperation, turn to people like the Pearls. While the PEARLS deserve damnation I hope no one here will decide that foreign adoption is wrong due to this case [and yes, there have been other foreign adopted kids killed by parents--one Russian boy in the Chicago area comes to mind.] Lydia's parents likely started in with the Pearls in semi-desperation, dealing with a child with Reactive Attachment Issues and quickly crossed the line when it didn't prove to be a "quick fix." They DO deserve blame as well as the Pearls.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 4, 2010 14:59:21 GMT -5
I don't understand why the ATI woman you knew switched the name of the ATI center where she'd been? What was her motivation?
I'm not sure either! But it was so bizarre the way she did it that I remember it clearly!
BANACAT: it depends on the state. Most are pretty hands-off with homeschoolers.
I work for a college and teach "Bibliographic Instruction" [how to do research] and it never ceases to amaze me how barely literate many of our students are and some have graduated from "the best" high schools in the area. I could give countless examples. The only difference between the worst of these students and the graduates of the Wisdom Booklets are a different set of cultural references. Same is true at our nearby Community College. The amount of remediation it takes today to produce a "college graduate" can be staggering.
Too often people seem to equate the excellence of "their" school or of top-rank suburban schools with "all" public schools. That simply isn't true. I've watched in horror as my own son, a difficult student at best, has been "shoved thru" learning next to nothing. Add that to my college students and the picture is not very heartening!
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Post by hopewell on Mar 4, 2010 14:39:44 GMT -5
My other comment is on older adopted children [older at the time of adoption] Lydia and her sister came from an extremely traumatic background. That said, corporal punishment is the norm in most African cultures. Still, these children had been taken to a new culture, a new language and a new RACE, let alone to unimagined riches materially speaking. That they likely had Reactive Attachment issues is almost certain. Spanking a child like that will only fuel their self-loathing and increase their negative self-image. While I can appreciate the parents becoming desperate enough to try anything [I've been in their shoes] at some point COMMON SENSE should have kicked in. "Who Moved My Cheese" is the thing they needed--if it worked before, but doesn't work now, then the "cheese" is elsewhere--try something else.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 4, 2010 14:36:19 GMT -5
...then they go to a doctor, it will be one of our Christian children that heals them with cutting edge innovation.
Sing it with me: "That'll be the day..." not likely any of those Pearl-terrorized kids will get enough education to innovate anything except a better chastizing rod.
Anyone ever read Rick Boyer's books. He runs the Learning Parent.com. He talks about "basic German Shepard" and relates all child "training" to his year or so running blood hounds for the state prison system. While I have actually gotten a good bit of help and inspiriation in very positive ways from his wife's stuff, he leaves me cold. He reminds me very much of the tone of the Pearl's literature.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 3, 2010 13:52:52 GMT -5
Did you know many people of color who were involved in ATIA/the Gothard movement
I have met one African-American family who is in ATI. We met in a homeschool group. They were a little bit liberal in that the 16 year old daughter was in homeschool swimming class and got to wear a "regular" bathing suit--a tankini that was a bit large and had and extra cross-strap sewed to the back to hold it on better. No one seeing her would have given her a second look. However, they were a "mixed" race family and the mother identified closely with her white Grandmother who had raised her. One of the sons was [imagine this!] marrying a white BOB JONES U grad and moving to New England. She claimed to have never been subject to overt-racisim at any ATI function she'd ever attended. Several of her kids have "served"at different ATI locations. When I mentioned being very familiar with one center she "corrected" herself and changed the child's location to a different center! Her husband had "left the family" but she had never sought a divorce!
Ruth: I'm glad your Mother gave you such a special time in your day. That's a good reminder for all of us Moms! Also, remember there are COUNTLESS "graduates" of poor-performing urban and rural public schools who find themselves in the same academic boat you are in. While there are OUTSTANDING public schools, most today would rate "mediocre" at best. I know from my kids' schools, from family who are teachers, a superintendent and a pscyhologist. Lack of academic rigor is not sole fault of the ultra-right wing homeschoolers! lol...
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Post by hopewell on Mar 2, 2010 13:51:27 GMT -5
duplessis3-- good to know since my kids have done a lot of Ambleside [doing things a bit differently for high school]
Ruth: Did you do anything other than the Wisdom booklets--did your Mom assign books to read or even very Christian science stuff? Anything? I too am curious. I know some homeschoolers use the last year or so to cram for either a GED or ACT/SAT. I am very interested in this part of your story!
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Post by hopewell on Mar 1, 2010 12:17:57 GMT -5
So awful--even the funny parts like not having that child scheduled for a bath or entertainment is "serious"....I'd love to hear what happened with your ex--in that I mean do the kids have to visit him? Did he, too, "come around" eventually?? Schedules, to me, are for medicine, prison and similar places! I'm glad you and your kids can enjoy each other now.
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Post by hopewell on Mar 1, 2010 12:08:57 GMT -5
Like the others, I cannot imagine growing up like this! I had a mentally ill father and didn't have anything like this going on.
Sadly, it makes me want to jump forward 10-20 years and read the Duggar kid's tell-alls NOW. The "other side" of that family has yet to be seen. Thanks for helping us all to understand the bizarre world of Bill Gothard's "Christianity."
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Post by hopewell on Feb 24, 2010 14:59:50 GMT -5
Reminds me of Emily at Under $1000 and her plan to stack her kids in that tiny room. I am simply fascinated to see how people live. Mind you I spent time in Africa living with a middle class [in terms of that country] family of 8 with two bedrooms--the boys slept on mattresses in the living room. Still, this is America and a bed of your own is an expectation if not quite a "right". I'm glad you Dad at least agreed to do something--after all it could have been a case of your Mom as "the babeling brook" nattering on and on about the boys room when he's out there earning a living and she should shut up and not complain!
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Post by hopewell on Feb 18, 2010 15:25:05 GMT -5
Please, please hurry up and post part 2!! This is a really interesting story!
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